Synergy is more important than some of us realise!!!

[FennerMachine]

I have owned and/or demoed many systems.

I have owned Hi-Fi costing a few pounds and demoed systems costing over £10,000.

I am currently using my old Denon AV amp for all music until I get my Icon Audio Stereo 40.

The Denon, with my Quad 21L2 speaker, sound amazing!

It sounds better than the Quad kit! From memory, better that the Cyrus with other speakers.

If I had not heard what the Icon Audio amps can do with these speakers I would be a happy man!

Once I have an Icon Audio Stereo 40 amp I will be a VERY happy man!

 

[stevebrock]

Yep the Icon Audio ST40 is on my radar now!

I need to get to listen to one with my current speakers to see if they are a good match.

There is a lot to be said about system matching!

Have you demoed the Icon?

 

[Hi-FiOutlaw]

Yep the Icon Audio ST40 is on my radar now!

I need to get to listen to one with my current speakers to see if they are a good match.

There is a lot to be said about system matching!

Have you demoed the Icon?

once you go on the valve route there's no turning back...! :twisted:

 

[stevebrock]

Yep the Icon Audio ST40 is on my radar now!

I need to get to listen to one with my current speakers to see if they are a good match.

There is a lot to be said about system matching!

Have you demoed the Icon?

once you go on the valve route there's no turning back...! :twisted:

Well the Croft did interest me, and I know someone selling one with the phono stage - but sadly it has no remote and that really is a big neccesity, also the twin volumue pots were a little off putting.

Its fiinding the time now to demo etc as I am now back in permanent employment (self employed the last year)

 

[Hi-FiOutlaw]

Take all the time in the world Steve, it's nice to be in the market to find something especial, nicer to find it...

 

[matthewpiano]

IMO synergy is absolutely crucial, particularly between amp and speakers but also including the source.

 

[Tear Drop]

I'd be interested to find out people's definitions of synergy as it pertains to hifi.

 

[daveh75]

I'd be interested to find out people's definitions of synergy as it pertains to hifi.

Pretentious b#ll%cks, usually.

 

[James7]

I have owned and/or demoed many systems.

I have owned Hi-Fi costing a few pounds and demoed systems costing over £10,000.

I am currently using my old Denon AV amp for all music until I get my Icon Audio Stereo 40.

The Denon, with my Quad 21L2 speaker, sound amazing!

It sounds better than the Quad kit! From memory, better that the Cyrus with other speakers.

If I had not heard what the Icon Audio amps can do with these speakers I would be a happy man!

Once I have an Icon Audio Stereo 40 amp I will be a VERY happy man!

Yes, totally agree with your thoughts on the importance of synergy, and also interested to hear your experience of pairing a Denon AV amp with your QUADs. I have had a similar experience - my lounge system is built around a pair of QUAD 11L2 speakers bi-amped using four of the channels of my Sony AV receiver, an STR-DA2400ES. Some people are critical of the QUAD L series loudspeakers but in my experience the key is matching them with a suitably smooth and robust amplifier - then they can really sing. I have found the Sony amp to be an excellent match - which again goes against the views of some that AV amps just cannot sound good playing two channel music - and so it is interesting to hear your Denon pairing experience.

I can well imagine the Icon sound might be just the ticket for QUAD L speakers too - no-one should be fooled by the 40 watt output: as with most valve amps, this figure doesn't really reflect the power on tap, and the sound is nothing if not smooth and robust.

 

[James7]

I'd be interested to find out people's definitions of synergy as it pertains to hifi.

Synergy is about the various components of a system working together, and for me there are two relationships of particular importance - between the speakers and room, and the speakers and amplifier, and in that order. That is why a cheaper, well matched system will outperform a more expensive but less well matched system, such as the OP's discovery that an old Denon AV amp can sound fabulous playing two channel music when partnered by the right speakers.

 

[Leeps]

I'd be interested to find out people's definitions of synergy as it pertains to hifi.

Synergy is about the various components of a system working together, and for me there are two relationships of particular importance - between the speakers and room, and the speakers and amplifier, and in that order. That is why a cheaper, well matched system will outperform a more expensive but less well matched system, such as the OP's discovery that an old Denon AV amp can sound fabulous playing two channel music when partnered by the right speakers.

Had the same experience with my current AV system compared with my previous stereo (at playing 2-channel music). The greater success with more music genres I put down to synergy of components and perhaps my AV receiver's MCACC system that was more able to adapt to my room than my "play it straight only" stereo.

Having said that I never had bass boom problems with my old system, it was just that the treble could be too shouty.

At my last experience at the Bristol show, the best demos I heard all day were far from the most expensive - and some of the most expensive systems I heard hurt my ears so much I didn't hang around very long.

Completely agree with the original OP's sentiments.

 

[wilro15]

The synergy of a system has to include your own ears. Seriously. A high end system might sound great to one person but average to the next. We all want different things from our music.

Thats why you have to listen to as much kit as you can. Don't worry about 5 star reviews or what some bloke said on a hifi forum. Trust your own ears.

I experienced this myself when I auditioned brands like Nad, Audiolab & Marantz but ended up walking away with something I didn't expect - a Leema.

 

[Tear Drop]

I'd be interested to find out people's definitions of synergy as it pertains to hifi.

Synergy is about the various components of a system working together, and for me there are two relationships of particular importance - between the speakers and room, and the speakers and amplifier, and in that order. That is why a cheaper, well matched system will outperform a more expensive but less well matched system, such as the OP's discovery that an old Denon AV amp can sound fabulous playing two channel music when partnered by the right speakers.

But what, specifically, are you "matching"?

 

[Hi-FiOutlaw]

I felt this issue recently in the flesh, and I really know how true this is! I've upgrade my Rega Brio R for a hybrid Pathos Classic One mkIII, the Pathos has no phono stage built in, so having Rega gear and really understanding the brand love for analogue, buying the new Rega phono MM was a no brainer!

With the Pathos my digital playing gave a big step in soud quality, and I wanted the same step up from my analogue play back, but the Pathos and the Rega phono MM didn't get along.

talk about this with my rega dealer, and took back the Phono stage and the TT to see cart alignment, and all was 100% even tryed another rega MM phono stage and all sounded great with ather amps at his store... So brought home again the Rega phono MM, but the result was always the same, my digital content was light years ahead of my RP3 and this NEVER happend with the Brio R...

So, after 2/3 month without listening to vinyl said to myself, enough is enough, and went to my rega dealer to solf this thing, I even was consithering buying a Rega Aria (but with a dome demo first) and he pointed me out for a ex demo Clearaudio Basic + that i've brought for a home demo and never live...

The Basic + give my RP3 the step up that I was after, leaving the rega DAC light years away, that is HOW GOOD the synergy between the Pathos and the clearaudio phono stage is.

yes rega phono MM is 230€ and clearaudio is 690€, but by Brio R built in phono + RP3 was way better than the Pathos + phono MM + RP3

 

[Leeps]

I'd be interested to find out people's definitions of synergy as it pertains to hifi.

Synergy is about the various components of a system working together, and for me there are two relationships of particular importance - between the speakers and room, and the speakers and amplifier, and in that order. That is why a cheaper, well matched system will outperform a more expensive but less well matched system, such as the OP's discovery that an old Denon AV amp can sound fabulous playing two channel music when partnered by the right speakers.

But what, specifically, are you "matching"?

In my own experience, mainly tonal balance between source, amp and speakers, but I quite agree with the above comments that it should include the room, your ears and the types of music you listen to most.

My CD player, previous amp and speakers, were all individually on the "forward" / "sharp" side, so when all combined together tended to exacerbate this quality. This happened to sound fantastic with certain types of music; post-Kid A Radiohead sounded stunning. But anything with electric guitars just made you turn the volume down instantly.

But the same amp and speakers using my Bluray as source sounded spot on, because evidently the Bluray's tonal balance helped tone down the forwardness of the other components, so nothing ever sounded harsh, but just clear, detailed and lush. Some of that could be down to the format itself, but out of the 3 components, it was the CD that was the largest culprit.

Had I chosen warmer speakers, it would have been successful with more kinds of music, but may not have sounded quite so epic with Radiohead. So you pays your money...

I personally like hifi that majors on a keen sense of rhythm and timing. That's important to me and the music I listen to - but, those who listen to a lot of large orchestral classical works may like other qualities such as a sense of scale, resolution of complex music, detail and placement of instruments on the soundstage. Each component can add their own flavour, which is why we don't all own the same thing!

 

[Cypher]

When you think your system sounds good.........there's great synergy. Couldn't be more simple.

 

[Tear Drop]

I have never really liked the concept of synergy as the thinking behind it seems fundamentally flawed. Example, I have a 'bright' amp, so I need to pair it with 'warm' speakers. So you are essentially trying to cover one imperfection with another. The result might be more 'enjoyable' (because you masked an audible problem) but hifi is about accuracy. Two wrongs don't make a right, they make another wrong. If, in my example, you have a bright amp, reject it for one that isn't, don't try to hide its flaws because, at the end of the day, those flaws will still exist in your system.

 

[Native_bon]

I have never really liked the concept of synergy as the thinking behind it seems fundamentally flawed. Example, I have a 'bright' amp, so I need to pair it with 'warm' speakers. So you are essentially trying to cover one imperfection with another. The result might be more 'enjoyable' (because you masked an audible problem) but hifi is about accuracy. Two wrongs don't make a right, they make another wrong. If, in my example, you have a bright amp, reject it for one that isn't, don't try to hide its flaws because, at the end of the day, those flaws will still exist in your system.

Its not a flaw if it sounds right to you.. Your just trying to be smart :shame:

 

[Pedro2]

I'm sure that room acoustics play a big part here too. A great combination in one room may only sound mediocre in another. So many variables at play!

 

[Tear Drop]

Its not a flaw if it sounds right to you.. Your just trying to be smart :shame:

I'm not 'trying to be' anything. A flaw is a flaw. Maybe your goals in hifi differ from mine, but 'it sounds right to me' really has nothing to do with high fidelity and is an attitude which I believe promotes mediocrity in music reproduction, as essentially it means that everything has equal value, and that there is nothing truly exceptional to strive for.

 

[TrevC]

Not sure that synergy is the right word, but if you are using a valve amp the frequency response will track the impedance of the speakers to a certain extent. This may sound nice to you, or it may not, so auditioning with your speakers is a must in that particular case.

 

[MakkaPakka]

I have never really liked the concept of synergy as the thinking behind it seems fundamentally flawed. Example, I have a 'bright' amp, so I need to pair it with 'warm' speakers.

I've never understood the thinking behind 'warm' or 'bright' amplifiers. Why would any manufacturer what their amp to be warm or bright - surely that would be a failure in the design which should be to amplify everything equally. I've heard amps of varying quality - some better than others - but would not describe any as warm or bright.

 

[TrevC]

I have never really liked the concept of synergy as the thinking behind it seems fundamentally flawed. Example, I have a 'bright' amp, so I need to pair it with 'warm' speakers.

I've never understood the thinking behind 'warm' or 'bright' amplifiers. Why would any manufacturer what their amp to be warm or bright - surely that would be a failure in the design which should be to amplify everything equally. I've heard amps of varying quality - some better than others - but would not describe any as warm or bright.

It's all part of hifi mythology, along with vinyl's supposed superority over digital, 'slow' subwoofers, timing and burn in. For an amplifier to be bright or warm it would need to deviate well away from a flat audio response. None ever do.

 

[Tear Drop]

I have never really liked the concept of synergy as the thinking behind it seems fundamentally flawed. Example, I have a 'bright' amp, so I need to pair it with 'warm' speakers.

I've never understood the thinking behind 'warm' or 'bright' amplifiers. Why would any manufacturer what their amp to be warm or bright - surely that would be a failure in the design which should be to amplify everything equally. I've heard amps of varying quality - some better than others - but would not describe any as warm or bright.

What manufacturers want and what they are capable of are two completely seperate things.

 

[MakkaPakka]

You don't think that in 2014 manufacturers aren't capable of producing an amplifier that's flat across the frequency range? Pretty sure they've been doing so for decades.