Superuniti vs Sonos

[matt49]

OK, this sounds like the mismatch of the century, but bear with me for a moment. I'm looking for a completely new system in my living room (the study set-up in my signature is staying). On an earlier thread here

http://www.whathifi.com/forum/hi-fi/upgrade-strategy#comment-2828443

a few of you suggested I should look into an all-in-one streaming box. (My music’s all in ALAC files on a NAS drive and is streamed all round the house by Sonos via cat-5 cables.) So instead of adding a good DAC and amp to the Sonos in the living room, I might (so the advice) try a Majik DSM. It's proved easier to get hold of a Naim Superuniti for home demo, so today and tomorrow I'm messing around with the Superuniti in various permutations.

One thing I want to find out is how much of a weak link the electronics in the Sonos ZP90 box are. (I’ve heard it said that the clock in the Sonos is of poor quality.) I thought it’d also be interesting to compare my Audiolab M-DAC with the DAC in the Superuniti. So I'm trying four combos:

(1) Superuniti taking files from a USB memory stick (because I couldn't get the Superuniti to find my NAS drive)

(2) Sonos via digital coax into Superuniti

(2) Sonos into M-DAC into analogue ins of Superuniti

(3) Sonos into M-DAC (as pre-amp) into Cyrus X Power

The speakers are Sonus Faber Venere 1.5s.

I’ll report back on SQ tomorrow if anyone’s interested.

In the meantime some gripes about functionality. The display on the Superuniti is too far away from the listening position to be useful, which also means the SU’s (fairly decent) remote is only useful for play/pause and volume. The way metadata are presented on the front display of the SU is a mess and isn't configurable.

The Naim n-Stream control app is available for iPad/iPhone, but not for Windows (unlike the Sonos app, which works on all platforms). Like the display on the Superuniti, the n-Stream app doesn't present iTunes ALAC metadata correctly and isn't configurable.

For control on a Windows PC a separate paid-for app is required, Allegro Media Server. I tried to download a time-limited demo of this app, but it wouldn't open on my Windows 7 64-Bit PC.

In general the n-Stream app for iPhone has quite a bit less functionality than the equivalent Sonos app: e.g. no facility to FF/RW within tracks (you can’t do this with the remote either).

Networking set-up is easy so long as you’re streaming from a UPnP device, which I’m not. So the Superuniti couldn't find my NAS drive, which is disappointing to put it mildly.

 

[skippy]

Matt,

Very interested to hear how the different permutations work out.

Good to see someone doing a side by side comparison at different ends of the scale.

Like you were implying usability plays a large part in this and a question must be, would this actually put you off buying a higher end unit if you could enhance the Sonos?

 

[CnoEvil]

I will be surprised if the Naim is not a good step up over the Sonus but it maybe more marginal over the M-Dac......I look forward to how you get on.

Cno

 

[matt49]

I will be surprised if the Naim is not a good step up over the Sonus but it maybe more marginal over the M-Dac......I look forward to how you get on.

Cno

Thanks, Cno.

All I'll say just now is that at this (very early) stage of my 'journey' (ugh, hate that metaphor) the Superuniti is going to be a benchmark. More tomorrow.

Matt

 

[CnoEvil]

All I'll say just now is that at this (very early) stage of my 'journey' (ugh, hate that metaphor) the Superuniti is going to be a benchmark. More tomorrow.

Matt

It's more like "Orienteering" anyway...... :twisted:

(just don't take your compass bearing the wrong way round! )

 

[bigboss]

I would suggest an extensive demo with basic Sonos first. You've always got this option:

http://www.fidelityaudio.co.uk/sonos.html

 

[matt49]

I would suggest an extensive demo with basic Sonos first. You've always got this option: http://www.fidelityaudio.co.uk/sonos.html

Thanks for that tip. I was aware of the Wyred 4 Sound mod to the ZP90 (whiich Item Audio in the UK do), but the mods you suggest are new to me.

 

[Pete68]

Currently having some upgrades carried out by Fidelity Audio. Will post the results as soon as it's all done.

They have had some great reviews.

 

[gregvet]

If it helps, I would imagine the reason the nas cannot be seen by the superuniti is because it will need some server software (for eg twonky) to be installed. Sonos doesn't need this kind of software for the music files to be available, but upnp clients (ie almost all other streaming solutions) do.

 

[matt49]

If it helps, I would imagine the reason the nas cannot be seen by the superuniti is because it will need some server software (for eg twonky) to be installed. Sonos doesn't need this kind of software for the music files to be available, but upnp clients (ie almost all other streaming solutions) do.

Thanks, Greg, that hadn't occurred to me. I'll look into it.

How are the LS50s going?

 

[gregvet]

Listening to them right now, and so far pretty impressed. I can see where the blade influence has crept in.

I should have gone to bed ages ago, I start work at 7!

 

[jockey.wilson]

I haven't heard the SuperUniti, but I am more than familiar with Naim networking and NStream.

you need a reliable UPnP server on the NAS (eg Twonky) for serving duties. Once that is setup, and assuming you have a reasonable router or wireless access point, N Stream is an absolute joy to use, which,lets face it is what streaming is all about.

i would be very surprised if a Sonos system can hold a candle musically to a SuperUniti (or any Naim all in one for that matter).

 

[eggontoast]

You've always got this option: http://www.fidelityaudio.co.uk/sonos.html

Hmmm, what a pile of schite if ever I seen......

 

[bigboss]

You've always got this option: http://www.fidelityaudio.co.uk/sonos.html

Hmmm, what a pile of schite if ever I seen......

 

[BenLaw]

I haven't heard the SuperUniti, but I am more than familiar with Naim networking and NStream.

you need a reliable UPnP server on the NAS (eg Twonky) for serving duties. Once that is setup, and assuming you have a reasonable router or wireless access point, N Stream is an absolute joy to use, which,lets face it is what streaming is all about.

i would be very surprised if a Sonos system can hold a candle musically to a SuperUniti (or any Naim all in one for that matter).

Seeing as both can output a bit perfect signal, through the same dac they'll sound exactly the same. (ie options 1 and 2 will sound identical.) Don't let that stop anyone spending unnecessary £000s though.

 

[bigboss]

Personally, I'm very happy with my Sonos. I haven't found it lacking in sound. Not heard the Naim; didn't feel the need to.

 

[BenLaw]

Personally, I'm very happy with my Sonos. I haven't found it lacking in sound. Not heard the Naim; didn't feel the need to.

Agreed. It's fantastic, very close to a £2k CDP.

 

[andyjm]

The ZP90 (or whatever its called now) has relatively poor jitter performance. If I recall correctly, north of 250pS RMS. In context, the Squeezebox Transporter (which has one of the best jitter numbers of any source) is 15pS RMS.

This doesn't matter one jot if your DAC uses some form of jitter mitigation, but it MAY matter if your DAC just slaves itself to the streamer clock.

The rule is "DAC with jitter mitigation - any old streamer will do, DAC without jitter mitigation - take care about your choice of streamer".

To be honest, the clock doesn't belong in the streamer at all, but we have Sony and Philips to thank for that.

 

[matt49]

Seeing as both can output a bit perfect signal, through the same dac they'll sound exactly the same. (ie options 1 and 2 will sound identical.) Don't let that stop anyone spending unnecessary £000s though.

Yes, you'd hope so, assuming there isn't any nasty clock jitter in the ZP90. There are differing views on this. I'm minded to think it isn't a problem.

Demo results to follow later today or tomorrow.

 

[eggontoast]

I'm looking forward to seeing the results of this, it should be interesting.

I wonder if Brent at Fidelity Audio would loan you a modded ZP90 for comparisons, that really would be riveting

 

[bigboss]

The ZP90 (or whatever its called now) has relatively poor jitter performance. If I recall correctly, north of 250pS RMS. In context, the Squeezebox Transporter (which has one of the best jitter numbers of any source) is 15pS RMS.

This doesn't matter one jot if your DAC uses some form of jitter mitigation, but it MAY matter if your DAC just slaves itself to the streamer clock.

The rule is "DAC with jitter mitigation - any old streamer will do, DAC without jitter mitigation - take care about your choice of streamer".

To be honest, the clock doesn't belong in the streamer at all, but we have Sony and Philips to thank for that.

But didn't some scientific tests show that a jitter of 400-600ps is needed to cross the audible threshold? In other words, you can't perceive jitter if it's less than 400ps?

 

[matt49]

Well, I must say it’s been a highly enjoyable couple of days messing around with the Superuniti in my study. Actually today I haven’t been doing much swapping and comparing: I’ve mainly been sitting back and enjoying the music. First things first, sonically the Superuniti is a lovely piece of kit, which I could happily live with, based on my experience in the last two days at least. But this is only the start of my research into kit at this level, so it’s no surprise that I’ve been impressed.

Just by way of reminder: I’ve been listening to ALAC files through the Sonus Faber Venere 1.5s. I’ve tried four set-ups:

(1) Superuniti taking music from a USB memory stick (=SU)

(2) Sonos via digital coax into digital ins of Superuniti (=Sonos/SU)

(3) Sonos into M-DAC into analogue ins of Superuniti (=M-DAC/SU)

(4) Sonos into M-DAC into Cyrus X Power (=M-DAC/Cyrus)

Both the SU and the M-DAC/SU set-ups dug up loads of detail, and both were an improvement on the M-DAC/Cyrus. The SU and M-DAC/SU both gave better separation of instruments in complex music than the M-DAC/Cyrus. The SU's timing is superb, and perhaps a fraction cleaner than the M-DAC/SU. Leading edges of notes are slightly sharper with the SU. As for dynamics, the SU showed a big improvement over the M-DAC/Cyrus, but little difference from the M-DAC/SU. The tone of the SU is sweet and bright playing strings, woodwind and brass. The M-DAC/SU set-up seemed to have a slightly darker tone than the SU. Both SU and M-DAC/SU reached high and deep, and seemed pretty neutral across the frequency range. Very nice bass control: better than the M-DAC/Cyrus. I have a bit of a problem with bass boom from my speakers with the M-DAC/Cyrus system. There were no signs of boom at all with the SU driving the speakers.

So to summarize: there was a small but significant difference in SQ between (1) the SU alone and (3) the M-DAC/SU. In particular, the SU produced cleaner edges and tighter bass. Predictably there was a pretty big step up from (4) the M-DAC/Cyrus (a system which is half the price of the SU).

I haven't said anything yet about set-up (2) Sonos via digital coax into the digital ins of Superuniti. That's because after two days' listening I couldn't discern any difference at all between the SU alone and Sonos/SU. This suggests to me that with kit at this level of quality (and bearing in mind that more revealing speakers might reveal a difference) the digital path in the Sonos ZP90 is perfectly clean enough.

 

[CnoEvil]

It's great to get your impressions, which were pretty much as I would expect......though it's impressive that Sonos -> SU (via dig. coax) sounded as well as SU on it's own.

 

[matt49]

It's great to get your impressions, which were pretty much as I would expect......though it's impressive that Sonos -> SU (via dig. coax) sounded as well as SU on it's own.

Yep, I wasn't expecting that. I was expecting Anne Robinson to leap out of the speakers with that annoying look on her face, saying "Sonos, you're the weakest link. Goodbye." I was also expecting Sonos -> Superuniti to be about the same quality as Sonos -> M-DAC -> Superuniti. In other words, I expected the M-DAC to hold its own against the DAC in the Superuniti. But it didn’t. Not quite sure why. Any ideas?

The big positive to come out of this is that I can see a clear way forward for my upgrade. The strong performance of the digital path in the Sonos ZP90 means that it makes no sense for me to buy an all-in-one device with streaming capability. Streaming is done very well by Sonos, which also has a better interface and more functionality than the SU and can correctly read the ALAC metadata generated in iTunes. So I'll be looking for a system consisting of Sonos feeding a DAC and amplification (and speakers, natch).

Having said that, I’m booked in for a demo on Thursday comparing the Superuniti and the Linn Majik DSM. Well, why not?

 

[BenLaw]

It's great to get your impressions, which were pretty much as I would expect......though it's impressive that Sonos -> SU (via dig. coax) sounded as well as SU on it's own.

Why wouldn't it?