Stimulating the little grey cells . . .

CJSF

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I think as PP suggested we call 'half time' on the new cartridge search for my P5. Researching and rethinking the whole business . . . :? I came across the following: http://wajonaudio.webs.com/gradosonata.html Puts a whole new perspective on MC/MM? Next thing we know we will all be searching through the cupboards for those old vintage MM cartridges? The world of hifi is a strange place . . . CJSF
 

DIB

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So it's a Grado Reference Sonata next on the shopping list?

At over £500 a pop it's going to be an expensive 2012
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CJSF

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DIB said:
So it's a Grado Reference Sonata next on the shopping list?

At over £500 a pop it's going to be an expensive 2012
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DIB, thats been an expensive run up to New Year, bought Hazel a Kenwood Chef food processor thingy on Friday, its going to be a new vacuum tomorrow, bet your life it will be the most expensive one in the shop . . . and I've got a man coming on Tuesday to do the garden, afraid the legs and feet are playing up:wall:

The Sonata now 'Reference 1', is £600+!!!! I think the 'Platinum 1' is worth a listen. Been ferreting around the net looking at 'Clearaudio' 'Aurum Beta S' keeps the lid on at just over £400 and the 'Virtuoso Wood' is around £500:

http://www.stereophile.com/phonocartridges/737

At the moment I'm all played out of music listening, nice to have silence for a while, but I think I will put a cap on at £500, puts the Benz out . . . its such a paint to get I'm running out of resolve, to the point . . . forget it!

Buy a Platinum or basic Aurum and be don with it all . . . :? I keep saying it, the lip service is there, but even the best are not carrying true demonstration stock . . . "yes we had one on dem but sold it last week", the number of time I have heard that! Cash in hand, easy life and digital still reigns supreme . . . Appreciation of genuine hifi has gone IMHO

I cant understand how the trade expect a customer to part with a wedge of 'hard earned' . . . on the basis of, buy a box, unknown quantity, thats a very expensive 'lucky dip'. Suggest that to the sales person, as I have over the phone, I got some very negative replies back!

I think DIB . . . I'm looking forward to retirement in June, pull up the draw bridge, let the world pass by, a reason why I wanted to get this cartridge thing sorted, there wont be any spare cash then????

CJSF
 

CJSF

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Slight modification of that advise . . . switch off altogether . . . I think I'm looking forward to retiring in June?? pull up the Draw Bridge, let the world pass buy.

I'm tired of the lip service in the industry. The amount of times one hears . . . "yes we had one last week on dem, but we sold it, dont get much call for them anyway" . . . They dont seem to understand, if a product is not visible, to at least take orders on, you wont get any interest. Sales, marketing and making a prophet is not rocket science, if its not on the shelf, it cant be sold.

Seems to me, the genuine appreciation of analogue hifi and reproduction thereof, is very thin on the ground, the easy rout, line of least resistance is digital, how things have changed over 20 years.

I dont know about half time . . . I think its full time!

CJSF
 

chebby

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CJSF said:
Seems to me, the genuine appreciation of analogue hifi and reproduction thereof, is very thin on the ground, the easy rout, line of least resistance is digital, how things have changed over 20 years.

Yes indeed. But not the way you see it.

20 years ago (1992 or thereabouts) CD had reached maximum market penetration and vinyl was at it's nadir.

Now however, vinyl has enjoyed at least 6 successive years of growth with year-on-year growth increasing each time (41% growth in LP sales last year) over the same time period that CD sales reached a plateau and started dropping because of the rise of downloads.

In other words, now is the best time analogue/vinyl has experienced in the last 20 years. You only have to read something like this blog about Pro-ject in the last 20 years to realise how bouyant the interest in vinyl still is.
 

CJSF

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chebby said:
CJSF said:
Seems to me, the genuine appreciation of analogue hifi and reproduction thereof, is very thin on the ground, the easy rout, line of least resistance is digital, how things have changed over 20 years.

Yes indeed. But not the way you see it.

20 years ago (1992 or thereabouts) CD had reached maximum market penetration and vinyl was at it's nadir.

Now however, vinyl has enjoyed at least 6 successive years of growth with year-on-year growth increasing each time (41% growth in LP sales last year) over the same time period that CD sales reached a plateau and started dropping because of the rise of downloads.

In other words, now is the best time analogue/vinyl has experienced in the last 20 years. You only have to read something like this blog about Pro-ject in the last 20 years to realise how bouyant the interest in vinyl still is.

Yes Chebby I see and understand, it strikes me the 'hifi customer?' does not seem to want the best bang for his buck . . . ? accepts, as in my case, 'this is the best cartridge for you Sir' or a web site recommendation . . . every one is happy? the phrase 'that will do' springs to mind.

Thats not the way I do business, in any walk of life, I suppose I'm the awkward customer, asks searching questions, has half the stock out on the counter, wants a discount, then walks out, 'thank you, I'll think about it' . . . for £500, I expect the service, do a good job an get the business, up till now, as I keep saying, its lip service, hoping I might shell out. In my world you earn my cash and loyalty.

On a slightly different track one also senses a 'band wagon' that is being jumped on in certain areas in the trade . . . and some of the old 'band waggons' have really lined pockets:O

41%, impressive, but 41% of what? . . . the figures are upwards, thats good. 'Digital' as a whole, I'm sure will continue to roll as downloads of various sorts. Lets be fair, anything other than two speakers and a sub if you must, cannot be true hifi as we now it. Its the world of digital flim-flam, and the public fall for it . . . ! They should enjoy it, why not, technology is a wonderful thing, but please, please, dont lets call kid ourselves and call it hifi.

Personally I will get myself sorted by hook or by crook, then back off and enjoy my old fashioned style of reproducing music. Its unlikely the hifi shops will get rich out of me after June 2012.
 

CnoEvil

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It sounds to me, that you need to make an alliance with a good, knowledgeable (and patient) dealer, who understands your needs, and whose advice you trust.

Good hifi is a niche sector, and TTs are a niche within a niche. I think some of the guys on here have pointed you in the right direction.....it's usually the people in specialist dealers, who've been involved with the playing and selling of vinyl for the last 30 years or so, that have the knowledge and passion to steer you right.....like truffles, they have to be sniffed out. ;)
 

CJSF

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CnoEvil said:
like truffles, they have to be sniffed out. ;)

You are not wrong there Cno . . . My experience up to now; even the specialist shops talk a good TT/cartridge, when the chips are down they go in to the . . . 'are, well, last week, we will see if we can get one in for dem'. . . etc. Basically once one moves away from mainstream cartridges, thats when the fun :doh: starts. Did I call it fun, it should be?

I'm narrowing the option down, Benz are near impossible, although the door is still open, if some one comes back to me? I can get Grado, and I have my friendly Dynovector dealer round the corner, I'm going to discus Clearaudio with him on Tuesday, I know he will try even if its not his standard brand?

I dont think I'm being especially fussy, to me its a lot of dosh, the same fuss over a starter cartridge would be unreasonable.

The phone line will be hot on Tuesday.

CJSF
 

floyd droid

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CJSF said:
Personally I will get myself sorted by hook or by crook, then back off and enjoy my old fashioned style of reproducing music. Its unlikely the hifi shops will get rich out of me after June 2012.

I hope you do get sorted CJ but hand on heart mate you aint going to achieve the sound you are after by chucking 500 notes at a cart, I understand your frustration with dealers in regards to demo transducers but trust me here the guys (dealers) who would sooner amputate a leg rather than put a cd on will echo what im saying. You may get close 'ish', but you strike me as not the kind of guy who does 'get close'.

Sit back, stick one of those old fashioned black rounds things on ( assuming that you still have a cart of some kind nailed on the headshell,lol) ,and ask yourself "am i really going to get there by titting around with carts on my present set up".

Hope this reads ok CJ :) .
 

CnoEvil

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floyd droid said:
I hope you do get sorted CJ but hand on heart mate you aint going to achieve the sound you are after by chucking 500 notes at a cart, I understand your frustration with dealers in regards to demo transducers but trust me here the guys (dealers) who would sooner amputate a leg rather than put a cd on will echo what im saying. You may get close 'ish', but you strike me as not the kind of guy who does 'get close'.

Sit back, stick one of those old fashioned black rounds things on ( assuming that you still have a cart of some kind nailed on the headshell,lol) ,and ask yourself "am i really going to get there by titting around with carts on my present set up".

Hope this reads ok CJ :) .

I think FD's (and others') point stands. It's so easy to get caught up in the cartridge drama, that it's easy to lose sight of the fact that it is less important than the arm, which itself is less important than the deck.

If you are after a never-ending search for for Nirvana, carry on, as it's the journey that's important....otherwise put the money towards a better TT.
 

CJSF

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altruistic.lemon said:
The point of the hobby is the music, not the equipment.

Get yourself an AT95E and have fun!

No, the point of the hobby is enjoying it as a whole as far as I am concerned. I used to enjoy both sides, music and the 'kit', for crying out loud, I manufactured the stuff for 15 years and enjoyed it most of the time.

The way I see it, there is a new generation out there, they dont have to do anymore than plug a cable in and press a few buttons, therefor dont get the pleasure, excitement or satisfaction of understanding whats going on by doing the adjustments yourself, 'plugging in cables', it is boring. Those that do remember, seem to be happy to take the line of least resistance, I dont blame them. A rout I am happy to go eventually . . . but I'm not happy with the Ortofon, I know there is better.

Seems to me, I'm supposed to be quiet, and make do . . . I'm not handing over a large amount of cash for something I cant sample, and I certainly will not be in the 'that will do camp'.

CJSF
 

CnoEvil

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CJSF said:
Seems to me, I'm supposed to be quiet, and make do . . . I'm not handing over a large amount of cash for something I cant sample, and I certainly will not be in the 'that will do camp'.

CJSF

.....I'm sure that is not the intention of the well meaning advice that you've been getting.

The worry is that you are spending it in the wrong area, if you are to get the gain that you are looking for.
 
CJ - I have mentioned countless times over the past 3 years: Hi-fi is a COMPROMISE. By that I mean you will NOT find the perfect or ideal sound. No doubt you will achieve, and with hand on heart, probably have found a fabulous solution, and if you except this you'll understand that the Holy Grail of utopian sound does not exist, regardless of how much money you sling at it. The only people who benefit from this are the dealers.

Don't take this from plastic penguin, but a person who has bought all formats of two-channel stuff since 1978.

Appreciate what you have (and I'm envious of the Rega P5) and throw a good dollop of realism on your TT or cartridge expectations.

Best wishes, pp
 

CJSF

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Sorry people, afraid I'm letting things get on top of me, frustration and me are not good bed fellows. I understand about throwing money at a problem . . . dont do it! Strange as it may sound I never have and dont, it just sounds that way. However if you throw enough words into the ring some thing eventually comes out that makes sense, industry calls it brain storming. I have my own, not so private version of 'brain storming'.

Slowly a pattern is emerging, on the computer and in my mind, I sent an email to an outlet this evening, I have, on New Year Sunday . . . had a most intelligent and helpful reply. Very much along the lines I was hoping for, might be a 'truffle' moment?

I have been rocked a little, not played a single piece of music in the past 48 hours!!! In fact there is no cartridge on the deck at this moment.

Have a few hours out tomorrow, blow the cobwebs away.

CJSF
 
The best thing you can do is except your current TT and cartridge is THE best for money and enjoy your system.

From personal experience it can grind you down and, in my case, I got totally fed-up with hi-fi altogether. It took me about 8-9 days to turn the hi-fi back on.

Put your TT and cartridge issue to one side for a couple of weeks and help others who really need the help on this forum - it'll take your mind off your own issues.
 

matthewpiano

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PP's advice is excellent. The hi-fi/equipment side of things can be interesting and when you make an improvement the rewards can be immense, but all too often it becomes frustrating and gets in the way of enjoying the music. Whilst I agree hi-fi in itself can be fascinating, I also wholeheartedly agree with altruistic lemon that the music comes first. I could enjoy the music without the excellent hi-fi I have, but I couldn't enjoy the hi-fi without the music.
 

CJSF

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Oh dear, the other thing the Sumiko does is sort out the poor recording . . . one in particular has turned into a 'dog'!
 

CJSF

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Mmm . . . :? telling me 'it wont work' or 'it cant be don' is like waving a red rag at a bull . . . ;) out striping the P5/RB700??? . . . I happen to be in my friendly local hifi dealers this afternoon, returning a couple of cartridges he had loaned me. We were discussing where we go from here? Another cartridge was selected for home trial . . . he also happened, in passing, to mention a 'Sumiko Celebration Pear-wood' . . . I pricked up ears, cut a long story short and living in dream land, I have at this very moment. Said Sumiko, in my RB700, on the P5, singing sweetly to me, using the Ortofon 'T5 Step-up coil phono plugs', that was a heart in mouth 'will they wont the' option?

Believe me, the P5/700 can handle excellence with aplomb, smooth, just on the warm side of natural, detail, I new it was there just not what it was, I know now. The sound stage floats in front of me, deep, wide and high, voices in coral pieces are individual and yet part of the whole, just like in real life, switch mentally from an individual or section to the whole, then back again . . . and The Tallis Scholars 'Allegri Miserere', I have never heard so musical a presentation from this recording, it simply presented the detail with out being analytical, I am speechless, words fail me . . . even back in 'the good old days' . . . it was not like this.

The limitations are in the amplifier not the TT/arm. Volume, if I required it, is limited by the Croft running out of puff and the speakers also, due to size are found wanting. But, as the room is small, I dont have to push those limitations. Buying the Sumiko . . . ???? there is more to the story than meets the eye . . . watch this space.

Back to more musical enjoyment . . . CJSF
 
CJSF said:
Mmm . . . :? telling me 'it wont work' or 'it cant be don' is like waving a red rag at a bull . . . ;) out striping the P5/RB700??? . . . I happen to be in my friendly local hifi dealers this afternoon, returning a couple of cartridges he had loaned me. We were discussing where we go from here? Another cartridge was selected for home trial . . . he also happened, in passing, to mention a 'Sumiko Celebration Pear-wood' . . . I pricked up ears, cut a long story short and living in dream land, I have at this very moment. Said Sumiko, in my RB700, on the P5, singing sweetly to me, using the Ortofon 'T5 Step-up coil phono plugs', that was a heart in mouth 'will they wont the' option?

Believe me, the P5/700 can handle excellence with aplomb, smooth, just on the warm side of natural, detail, I new it was there just not what it was, I know now. The sound stage floats in front of me, deep, wide and high, voices in coral pieces are individual and yet part of the whole, just like in real life, switch mentally from an individual or section to the whole, then back again . . . and The Tallis Scholars 'Allegri Miserere', I have never heard so musical a presentation from this recording, it simply presented the detail with out being analytical, I am speechless, words fail me . . . even back in 'the good old days' . . . it was not like this.

The limitations are in the amplifier not the TT/arm. Volume, if I required it, is limited by the Croft running out of puff and the speakers also, due to size are found wanting. But, as the room is small, I dont have to push those limitations. Buying the Sumiko . . . ???? there is more to the story than meets the eye . . . watch this space.

Back to more musical enjoyment . . . CJSF

No - what I'm saying is perfection, at any price, is unobtainable. You are looking for the perfect sound, which doesn't exist. All you're trying to do is defy physics. With the extra warmth or body you'll lose some of the detail, and the more expensive the system or component the more revealing it generally becomes, hence any rubbish recordings will highlighted further.

I'll say it again: With hi-fi there is always a trade-off!!
 

CJSF

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altruistic.lemon said:
Can't agree with you there, PP. You don't lose detail at all, it is all there but not as forward as in a brighter system. The amount doesn't vary.

We agree altruistic.lemon . . . the opportunity to see if a modest (?) . . . TT/arm could deal with a quality cartridge, as far as I'm concerned is well and practically proven. The idea of the cartridge new, costing twice as much as said TT/arm is an issue only for any owner. The fact of the matter is, the Rega P5 and RB700 arm are fine pieces of engineering capable of fare more than they are given credit for. . . but then we new that didn't we . . . ?

As far as poor LP's are concerned, surly a revealing quality cartridge in any appropriate TT will sort out the good and bad recordings out?

I have got so much more out of my recording with the Sumiko, the basics are always there with any half decent cartridge, its the subtleties and extra focus that quality ads to the whole. ?? . . . Did I say subtleties, whole new layers of detail and information, extra sections of a chior never heard by me before, I wait with anticipation to have another session tonight . . . get the organ recitals out!!!

Exciting days ahead, I have emails and phone calls I am waiting on to determine where I go from here?

Whether its worth the price tag, thats another question, and that question stands whatever turntable/arm a £1500 cartridge is in . . . ?

Puts a whole new slant on 'rubbish in rubbish out' . . . ?

CJSF
 

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