Speakers and cables - big improvements or not?

[splasher]

The most reliable way to answer this question would be to go to a dealer that stocks the speakers I fancy, taking mine and my current cables, and then try all the combinations back to back and decide for myself. But I'm at work in the countryside, sat at a computer rather than in a city centre at a hifi dealers auditioning speakers so I thought the next best thing would be to ask a forum.

I currently have Tannoy DC6TSEs wired using generic £2/m speaker cable and driven by a CA 851a. I like the sound but reading the reviews recognise that there are better speakers and better cables out there. The Tannoys are a little light on bass but to an untrained reviewer like myself sound open and sweet otherwise.

So my question to the more experienced (than me) out there is (and I realise describing a quantum of improvement is not easy) how much would I notice if I changed the speaker cables to something like QED silver anniversary and if I changed the speakers to MA Gold 300s or KEF R900s. Are we talking improvement that hits you in the face or that you can hear if you listen very closely and concentrate.

It's a bit like whiskey, I can tell the difference between single malt and Famous Grouse if I drink them back to back, but from one night to another I couldn't tell you which was which, if that makes sense.

Thanks for any input, and rest assured I would travel to a shop and audition speakers before I purchased, I'm just looking for some help with my thinking.

 

[Frank Harvey]

It all depends on what sort of speaker your amplifier will allow. Some are more capable than others.

Cables will be subtle (sometimes indiscernable), but I'd always recopmmend getting the system basics right before looking into cabling. If your cables are serving you well, stick with them for now.

 

[splasher]

Thanks David. When you say "what sort of speakers my amplifier will allow" can you elaborate please. It's 120w a channel into 8ohms according to the specs - is there more to consider? As I say, the MA Golds/KEF R900s were the sort of thing I had in mind.

Regarding cables, I suppose that's my problem - without having tried fancy cables, I don't know whether my existing are serving me well or not.

 

[Frank Harvey]

Duplicate.

 

[Frank Harvey]

Thanks David. When you say "what sort of speakers my amplifier will allow" can you elaborate please. It's 120w a channel into 8ohms according to the specs - is there more to consider? As I say, the MA Golds/KEF R900s were the sort of thing I had in mind.

Regarding cables, I suppose that's my problem - without having tried fancy cables, I don't know whether my existing are serving me well or not.

It's one thing for an amplifier to be able to drive any given speaker, but it's quite another sometimes for an amplifier to be able to control them properly. Some combinations sing, others just make a noise, and there's many shades of grey in between. It isn't necessarily a power issue, and has more to do with the quality of the amplification and its ultimate capabilities. If you had a different £1k amplifier I may be able to give you more specific advice, but I've not heard the CA in question.

 

[Vladimir]

Power amp damping factor: > 110 at 1 kHz

There shouldn't be any issues controling the woofers on the Tannoys. It also has a decent power supply for an integrated amp, so it won't starve them for current.

Power output: 120W RMS into 8 Ohms / 200W RMS into 4 Ohms

THD (unweighted): < 0.01% 20 Hz - 20 kHz at 80% of rated power

Just buy a thick gauge OFC stranded cable from a spool, at least 12AWG, with as many strands per conductor as possible. If the speaker and amp terminals accept spades, have them terminated with spades, not banana plugs. Download this song Yim Hok-Man - Poem of Chinese Drums, and do some testing for power handling and speaker control as Frank mentioned.

 

[andyjm]

Just buy a thick gauge OFC stranded cable from a spool, at least 12AWG, with as many strands per conductor as possible.

Vlad,

Why the comment on number of strands?

 

[Vladimir]

Just buy a thick gauge OFC stranded cable from a spool, at least 12AWG, with as many strands per conductor as possible.

Vlad,

Why the comment on number of strands?

It makes it more flexible, easier for fitting and less strain on the terminals.

 

[Frank Harvey]

Not overly keen on cables using hundreds of strands myself, but hey, we're all different.

 

[Blackdawn]

I don't think you will notice much difference changing cables. But changing speaker - you should notice a difference - only you can decide if its better, so best audition if possible. If you like the Tannoy sound what about the larger Tannoy XT 8F? You could always try re-positioning your existing speakers to give more bass. e.g. nearer to wall.

 

[splasher]

Thanks for the replies guys. Like I said I will audition speakers before parting with £2.5 - £3k but I'm stuck at work thinking about things rather than anywhere I can do that at present.

I've messed around with the positioning of mine and bungs in and out and as I say, they're pretty good. However, I do love my music and if a step up to £3k speakers gives a noticable improvement and a bit more physicality to the bass.

I guess to check whether my money is buying me a marked improvement I would need to take my amp and current speakers so I can compare. 15kg of amp and a pair of floorstanders isn't an easy thing to walk into a shop with! How do people ususally go about this?

 

[Frank Harvey]

Just make sure you audition the speakers with your amplifier.

 

[splasher]

I'm probably over thinking it, but I'm imagining sitting in a shop listening to speakers thinking "they sound great" but then having to compare them to my existing speakers based on memory to work out whether to upgrade or not. Comes back to my whiskey analogy, drinking them side by side, it's easy to say which you prefer but with 24 hours between them it's much harder.

I suppose it also comes back to my orginial question - if they a clearly far superior, it'll be an easy job, but if they're only marginally better, much harder.

Does anyone have any first hand experience of the Tannoys DC6Ts compared with the KEF R900s or the MA Gold 300s? Apart from checking that they suit my needs and my amp, what do people who have heard them think about how they compare?

 

[Frank Harvey]

I suppose it also comes back to my orginial question - if they a clearly far superior, it'll be an easy job, but if they're only marginally better, much harder.

If the difference is marginal, you have to ask yourself if it is worth changing...

 

[Frank Harvey]

Put it this way, if you had the choice of buying a £15 whiskey and a £40 whiskey, would you buy the £40 one if you couldn't tell much difference once you got it home?

 

[Laurens_B]

I'm probably over thinking it, but I'm imagining sitting in a shop listening to speakers thinking "they sound great" but then having to compare them to my existing speakers based on memory to work out whether to upgrade or not. Comes back to my whiskey analogy, drinking them side by side, it's easy to say which you prefer but with 24 hours between them it's much harder.

I suppose it also comes back to my orginial question - if they a clearly far superior, it'll be an easy job, but if they're only marginally better, much harder.

Does anyone have any first hand experience of the Tannoys DC6Ts compared with the KEF R900s or the MA Gold 300s? Apart from checking that they suit my needs and my amp, what do people who have heard them think about how they compare?

If you really want to do this right, you could take a saturday to bring your speakers along to the dealer, its a bit of a hassle, but it might lead you to a more sure and better decision for you.

 

[ellisdj]

I have changed speakers before and noticed only a small difference so that is not always the major factor either. Different speakers in the same spot in my room gave me guess what - almost identical freq reponse in the bass which was the problem to begin with.

I was convinced the bass issue was the result of the amp not driving my speakers properly so bought some newer what I presumed to be easier to drive speakers - however to the same end result so I got that wrong. Seeing as you mentioned bass its obviously a factor in your mind in terms of your systems performance. It will be the main "weak" factor in most systems I would guess - especially based on the demos I have had.

Bass is the hardest thing to get spot on - its best to measure and see what you have got to start with - than take a course of action to deal with it.

Look up audiobeat.com "system foundation" - some very good advice there on improving SQ might be a few avenues to look down different to what your considering atm.

Why not home demo some cabling to see what you think - to me thats better than doing shop demos anyway. It will def scratch the itch you have without costing you anything except a fun time in the testing. Dont expect better bass reponse from cabling - made that mistake before as well.

 

[splasher]

Put it this way, if you had the choice of buying a £15 whiskey and a £40 whiskey, would you buy the £40 one if you couldn't tell much difference once you got it home?

David, you've sort of re-posed my question back at me. That's really what I was asking those who have heard more speakers than me - is the difference between decent 1k speakers and decent 3k speakers blindingly obvious or subtle?

Before the Tannoys, my kids were too young to trust with speakers so I had satellite/sub which were child-proof but poor for music. Before that I had 1990 vintage Technics speakers that the kids modified by poking in the tweeters and the woofer centres (thus the sats/sub). So I'm potentially on my first upgrade and unsure how much improvement to expect.

As ever, the benefit of your experience welcomed.

 

[Rethep]

Download this song Yim Hok-Man - Poem of Chinese Drums[/b], and do some testing for power handling and speaker control as Frank mentioned.

Thanks for the hint to this beatiful music, Vlad!

Furthermore i agree with your advice: just stay with simple 'speakercable'. The change will be small or not there.

The speakers don't seem bass-shy (from the reviews). Maybe your acoustics or your listening position make them sound a little thin. Some repositioning of speakers or listening-seat could change a lot for the better. So try this first.

For 3k you can buy much better speakers, but not all of those speakers are better! If you want to go that way it is important to know what 'better' sound you are looking for.

 

[Vladimir]

His whole album is an acoustic marvel. I find it as an enjoyable listen, not just for testing.



TIDAL | SPOTIFY | ITUNES

 

[hg]

That's really what I was asking those who have heard more speakers than me - is the difference between decent 1k speakers and decent 3k speakers blindingly obvious or subtle?

Before the Tannoys, my kids were too young to trust with speakers so I had satellite/sub which were child-proof but poor for music. Before that I had 1990 vintage Technics speakers that the kids modified by poking in the tweeters and the woofer centres (thus the sats/sub). So I'm potentially on my first upgrade and unsure how much improvement to expect.

You are receiving a mixture of good and poor advice in this thread and I guess it is for you to work out which is which.

If you do not believe in speaker cables then they are not going to sound different if of reasonable thickness and construction.

Competent £3k speakers will offer a modest improvement in sound quality compared to competent £1k speakers but not in an in-your-face way. Competence is usually to be found from the larger conservative manufacturers like KEF and MA that you seem to be considering but it is not a hard and fast rule. This assumes you are looking for a neutral sound rather than one with a bit of character.

Bass is a bit different in that it is the room, what is in it and where that largely determines the quality of the sound. The speakers need to have enough cone area to move enough air without distorting and to be able to stop faster than the room. Avoiding small cones and ports tuned to a high frequency can be a good idea. Improvements in sound quality then largely rests on controlling the response of the room and speakers that can play at the required level without distorting, and we are not particularly senstive to low frequency distortion, will essentially sound the same.

 

[Deleted member 116933]

Put it this way, if you had the choice of buying a £15 whiskey and a £40 whiskey, would you buy the £40 one if you couldn't tell much difference once you got it home?

David, you've sort of re-posed my question back at me. That's really what I was asking those who have heard more speakers than me - is the difference between decent 1k speakers and decent 3k speakers blindingly obvious or subtle?

Before the Tannoys, my kids were too young to trust with speakers so I had satellite/sub which were child-proof but poor for music. Before that I had 1990 vintage Technics speakers that the kids modified by poking in the tweeters and the woofer centres (thus the sats/sub). So I'm potentially on my first upgrade and unsure how much improvement to expect.

As ever, the benefit of your experience welcomed.

Having just gone through this myself and parted with the best part of 2.5k (just on the speakers) I would say the difference are not immediately obvious. But you do notice it going back to cheaper/not so well made speakers. And thats really the difference. There better made the further up you go thus in turn giving you better control of the sound at any given volume making them more....well just more of everything but its just not in your face. For example because of how clean there becoming you don't really notice how loud the music is till someone starts speaking.

As been said above big speakers in a small just don't work (even your relatively small Tannoy’s) i learnt the hard way.

Personally in your case a demo at a dealer will be a waste of your time. You need to arrange a home demo with your preferred brands. And to be honest at this price no one makes a bad speaker and differences between brands will be marginal if any at all.

But what will change are there low mids/bass characteristics. Take my situation for example. I have a suspended floor and a square room.

I first tried PMC's 20 23's (in my home for a couple of weeks) the problem was bass was being sent through the floor because the Transmission Line exited at the bottom and then there where some delay problems because of the room. Now it’s not the speakers fault it just doesn't work in my room. I then moved on to some Revel m106 stand mounts with custom design fs106 stands. Now the difference was night and day more mids more bass but still all the detail remaind. Sometimes less is more!!! Its all down to the room. And if i want a little more bass later ill add a small musical sub.

Cables will maybe make small difference especially if your using a thin gauge cable but again it won't be dramatic.

No one here is going to try and sell you on the idea of 3k speakers. You just have to listen. And dont go putting 2-3k speakers on a £1000 amp it make no sense. I prefer to spend more money on the amp and have cheaper speakers driven to there best. Sounds far far better in my experance

Those are my experiances and i hope that helps a little

 

[hg]

Personally in your case a demo at a dealer will be a waste of your time. You need to arrange a home demo with your preferred brands. And to be honest at this price no one makes a bad speaker and differences between brands will be marginal if any at all.

Why will a demo at a dealer be a waste of time? The bass will be dominated by the control of the room but at higher frequencies what you hear at a dealer is very likely to translate to what you hear at home. Does the wife sound different at the dealers compared to home? Conclusions?

Now an uncontrolled room may sound less bad with speakers that have little bass but I would suggest most people are likely to be better off with speakers with sufficient bass, which could be used to good effect in a good room, and turning the bass down with a knob.

And dont go putting 2-3k speakers on a £1000 amp it make no sense. I prefer to spend more money on the amp and have cheaper speakers driven to there best. Sounds far far better in my experance

To me £1000 looks slightly too much to spend on a competent stereo amplifier given a £500-750 competent stereo amplifier that has sufficient power and is happy with the load will sound identical. Spending £5000 on an amplfier as you suggest seems unbalanced although one might have to pay more than one wants in order to get the required feature set so it is probably unwise to be too dogmatic. But I think it is safe to say at this price level if you are spending more than 50% of the price of the speakers on an amplifier the overall sound quality is not going to be maximised. Which is not a problem if it is not a heavily weighted parameter.

 

[Ivek]

Loudspeakers cables and interconnects could change the sound. In my system I've auditioned several cables and I always heard the difference among them. Sometimes subtle, sometimes more audible. It's suggested that more expensive cables bring more quality. But I don't think so since I've heard cheaper cables sounding better then expensive ones in my system. So I suggest You to audition several cables in order to find one which best suits system and personal taste. Also try to reposition sitting and loudspeaker position before spending money.

 

[Al ears]

His whole album is an acoustic marvel. I find it as an enjoyable listen, not just for testing.

TIDAL | SPOTIFY | ITUNES

Will be looking into this.

I suggest anything by Kodo Heartbeat Drummers of Japan would do likewise. This is one of my test discs.