Speaker Revelation......Amp too?

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Hi all,

I have some KEF iQ7 speakers, which I have disliked from the day I hooked them up. I ran with Marantz PM7200 and Marantz CD6002, and they sounded really shouty. They also lacked bass and scale, so I had to turn up the volume, which made them sound even more shouty. To add injury to insult, my Gale Gold Monitor bought for £60 sounded much much more enjoyable to listen to, with miles more bass and smoothness, although lacking a bit of detail.

I bought some PMC FB1+ and the difference is quite overwhelming. I don't have tuned listening skills, but the difference is like night and day. The sound is very large and is crystal clear, and seems to hang in the air for an eternity.

I am now thinking of changing the PM7200 for a Primare i30. Do you think the difference will be as pronounced as the speaker swap? I know that auditioning is important, but I would value the opinions here. The Marantz PM7200 sounds very good to me, but the speaker swap has me wondering.

I confess I hate listening to equipment in shops. I try to over-listen and over-analyse, and sometimes can't hear any differences or get "listened out". Also, how they sound in the shop is sometimes different to home. I auditioned the KEFs and didn't feel comfortable with them, and bought the PMC on gut instinct without ever hearing, to be made very happy.

Any views would be taken on board and gratefully received.
 
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Anonymous

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FB1's you lucky....

I for one reckon the i30 would be a good jump. Don't know if it would be on the same order as the Kef improvement to your ear. But a strong positive move nonetheless. Things would really flesh out with the Primare I'd think.
 
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Anonymous

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I auditioned the FB1i with the Primare I30 and I thought it was very good indeed. It had a lovely airiness to it with a good weight and a lot of detail. I haven't heard the Marantz but I'd be surprised if it's close to the I30. I think it's a combo that you can buy confidently and the synergy is very good. As Ray inferred, it'd probably sound a lot more realistic.
 

John Duncan

Well-known member
But to actually answer the question, to me the i30 + FB1 is about as good as it gets for real world money, and would be my ideal setup (since I suspect Plinius and Martin Logan wouldn't be allowed in the house from a size perspective, and financially I have to make do with A20 + DB1 for the time being).

A good dealer will let you take one home to hear it in situ, but I suspect it wouldn't go back.

Edit: actually it's the GB1 that I know - my apologies - but presume the FB1 is more of the same.
 
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Anonymous

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JohnDuncan:
Edit: actually it's the GB1 that I know - my apologies - but presume the FB1 is more of the same.
Indeed - the FB1 is one of the most fun and enjoyable speakers I've ever heard. The bass, with it's decent sized transmission line, is a revelation! It may not be the most accurate around but for sheer musicality it puts a smile on my face everytime...the sheer power almost brings an extra dimension to the music...
 
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Anonymous

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I think if there was a vote PMC would be this forum's fav speakermaker.
 
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Anonymous

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raypalmer:I think if there was a vote PMC would be this forum's fav speakermaker.
:) BTW, looking at your avatar Ray, I think you sealed your cat into your new home made speakers :-S Is it an experiment in damping?
 
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Anonymous

Guest
igglebert:raypalmer:I think if there was a vote PMC would be this forum's fav speakermaker.
:) BTW, looking at your avatar Ray, I think you sealed your cat into your new home made speakers :-S Is it an experiment in damping? Little ******'s a tweeter.
 
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Anonymous

Guest
Thanks all,

I really appreciate the views and advice given. I am writing an update to give my thanks and may be place a post for those who have similar predicaments.

I bought a Primare i30 on sale or return for Monday. I have placed both Marantz PM7200 next to Primare and let both warm up for a few hours. I tested with David Gray - Babylon. The results really really surprised me.

The Primare had a more central stereo image, and the high guitar notes had a real ZING to them.

The Marantz had to me a smoother angelic mid, more pronounced lower mid, and more deeper bass.

I think people take different things from music reproduction, and some really focus on technical reproduction, and look out for each instrumental subtlety and punctuation. I am trying to get a system where I feel as exhilarated as if I was standing at the front of a stage, and admit I may not pick up on all the subtleties as others.

On this basis, I think the Marantz is a more exhilarating piece of kit. I am astonished that it costs around £250 new, and I am preferring to £1500 amp. I really want the Primare to win, because it would give me a step up if better, but prefer the Marantz. I think it might be a preference of tone. On some digital cameras, they purposely distort colours slightly to red tones to give a more pleasing picture to the eye, and I wondering if this is the case here.

I am going to audition lots of different types of music and genres later to make sure I am not making a rash decision, and will tell you which amp I returned/kept.

To alter another variable, I asked the wife to listen. She preferred the Marantz. Then again, she says she has a hearing problem, but this hearing problem only seems to manifest itself when I ask her to do something. It seems fine the rest of the time.

Thanks again for feedback to date.
 
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Anonymous

Guest
You sir are a good poster. Hope you're not just a poppin.

I think maybe the Nait5i or the MF A5.5 may be more down your alley. Try em out and keep us posted.
 
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Anonymous

Guest
Thanks for the feedback. Ray's right with suggesting the MF A5 or A5.5, might just give what you want.
 
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Anonymous

Guest
Hi TNTTNT, I am definetly not an expert, but given the fact that you really enjoy the Marants sound, have you thought of checking out the most recent ones: PM6002 or PM7001? The PM6002 has excellent reviews, but not as powerful as the PM7001.... Just an idea..
 

drummerman

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I have some of your kefs here together with a ton of cambridge audio stuff and some MS mezzos. Its been a long time since I've heard the 7's and the new range is in my opinion not bad but I have to say I have experienced few of your problems with the iQ7. For 300 or so quid, which they retail at now, they are quite a bargain at the moment. They are accurate and uncoloured, much more so than any of MA's silver line speakers. They also sound very fast, open and image beautifully. In fact I'd go as far and say they sound uncannily like good standmounts such as MA's GS10 or ProAcs smaller studios (which I recently sold) without the associated price tag. Kef have always engineered relatively neutral sounding speakers which, when put side by side with more obvious sounding ones, quite often lost out. I dont like every aspect of them but partnered correctly they are one of hifi's bargains. Bass is deep and fast but there's not as much as you'd expect from the size so its ideal for smaller rooms. Powerhandling is good though and they dont have the problems of sounding compressed like some super minis. The Mezzos in comparison have some midrange coloration and more perceptible bass but if you listen carefully, its an upper bass lift that gives the impression of more and they dont have the free flowing, compression-fee nature or deep bass definition of the (much larger) 7's.The biggest problem these (and other Kef products) have is that they sound far from good with budget equipment and really only start to show what they are capable off with better stuff such as CA's 840 range I've used them with here.

If I only had 300 or so pounds for speakers they would be at the very top. What else is there?
 
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Anonymous

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Hi all,

Just writing to give an update. I listened to the Marantz PM7200 amp and Primare amps both with Marantz CD6002 for two days. I tried desperately to find a way of getting the Primare to sound better, and the sale or return deadline was due to expire today. It was becoming a nightmare because the high-pitched piano on Coldplay's Clocks actually hurt my ears through the Primare, and I mean really hurt.

I thought the whole world can't be wrong on the Primare to that extent. I thought and thought and decided on double or quits. I went to the shop and said I would keep the Primare, and could I buy their ex demo Primare CD31 on sale or return. The answer was yes, and that destructive treble became very smooth and even tame. The bass which was present on the Marantz, but absent on the Primare, came back with a mighty thud. I accepted the sale in 10 mins and rang the dealer.

Beside from wanting to merely change my speakers, to becoming considerably poorer, I am really uplifted by this experience. Not by the Primares, they cost a fair bit and sound like it, so they and I don't owe each other anything. The uplifting thing is that the Marantz gear could give such of a good account of itself. I think it is human nature to root for the plucky under-dog, and it came out of this test with honour.

I have one question, which I hope the other members may be able to help with. Being ex demo, there is a scratch on the top edge of the CD's brushed steel fascia. It is small, but deep. Has anyone managed to gently soften scratches out of brushed steel? I nearly got some fine steel wool, but then thought there may be an oxidised treated finish. There may be a product someone has used in this exact situation.
Finally I take drummerman's point on alternatives to KEF at such a good price. When I listened to them for £300, they weren't to my exact liking. I asked what alternatives were there.....the reply was B&Ws at £700. I looked blankly on and asked if they could pack the KEFs in apple finish.
 
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Anonymous

Guest
Phew... good post.

Your dealer likely carries Kef and B&W so it's one or another there. Your options, realistically are vast. There's hundreds of speaker makers in the UK alone. And speakers to pair with Primare.. does that rhyme? I'd say Neat, Proac, and Quad. But that's more of a guess than anything. JD will know better.

I think we've all learned, once again. The value of source. The old 'rubbish in rubbish out' theory still holding water. It's not that the Marantz was rubbish, but the Primare appears to have been picking up and passing on its harsher, more digital treble where the Marantz amp just gave that a miss sort of.

All said and done, you can pair that new kit with speakers that cost 3k and still not be letting the speakers down. You've secured a long-term upgrade there I'd say.
 
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Anonymous

Guest
I agree that source is very important. I am not sure the problem was a poor source though, but rather one of matching. The Marantz had every bit of detail (Nearly) as the Primare. The main difference was you noticed small details on the Primare, then found them on the Marantz, but you had to know they were there before hand to find them. They were nearly all there though.

I am starting to wonder if the problem is tuning and tone.

- The Marantz CD was very bright, and the Amp was very warm = Net warm of neutral.

- The primare CD is warm and the amp is pretty neutral = Net warm of neutral.

- However, the Marantz CD (Very Bright) and Primare amp (Neutral) = Very bright, even piercing (ouch)

I am not letting romanticism over the minnow overshadow reality. The Primare kit is really really good, with better imaging and better separation of detail. For the money the Marantz gear was very happy go lucky and toe tapping...really enjoyable. I am guessing that these manufacturers must tune their kit to their other components, the net result being ok.

Now my focus is trying to remedy that scratch I mentioned. Does anyone know how to take a scratch out of brushed steel?
 

drummerman

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I'm sure you have a metal work shop or factory (car body shop) somewhere near you. I would take the lid there and just ask them friendly if they could quickly do the whole lid over. It'll prob only take a min or two and I have a feeling if you try yourself it may end up worse.
 
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Anonymous

Guest
Thanks drummerman,

That sounds like a great idea. This would be bread and butter stuff to a car body shop.
 
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Anonymous

Guest
John,

I thought about contacting Primare to enquire about a case, or even get some advice on restoration. I know they are based in Sweden. How did you contact them? I ask because I couldn't find their number.
 

John Duncan

Well-known member
The UK distributor is info@csesolutions.co.uk and the main company is info@primare.net. I enquired direct to the primare address about my C31 remote control and they sent me a free chip to make it control my amp and player, rather than the av amp and dvd player it was configured for.
 
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Anonymous

Guest
Great!

John, you're a gentleman, for offering great advice and help.
 
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Anonymous

Guest
TNTTNT:
Great!

John, you're a gentleman, for offering great advice and help.

You're gonna make him blush now..............
 

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