I see on the news today that sony are going to increase their prices as much as 33% in the new year because and i quote"the weak pound". Now i dont about you lot but this reeks of pure profiteering as dont really recall prices coming down in sony shops when the the pound was booming against the yen and the dollar thus increasing proftability so its just a case of squeeze a few more yen out of the brits.Maybe whf could do an article to highlight daylight robbery by the back door?
sony price rises in the new year??????
- Thread starter avnut
- Start date
Just to clarify, according to The Independent Sony UK said: "The precise level of price increases has not yet been agreed, but it is likely that the vast majority of products affected will see increases of less than 33 per cent.
"As these testing trading conditions continue, Sony does not believe that it will be alone in taking this form of action."
I'm not sure the pound has ever boomed against the yen - when I first went to Japan back in the early 1990s it was around the Y250-270/£1 mark, and it's been in the Y200-230/£1 range for the past few years.
Today it stands at Y141/£1, which is seriously low. So I'm not quite sure anyone is profiteering by any back door. More like making it clear that it will have to increase prices - which I am sure is the last thing any company wants to do in the current economic climate - and explaining why. As it says, I don't think it'll be the only company eyeing this situation with concern.
And it's not something Sony will take lightly: it's already revised its profit forecasts substantially as a result of the strength of the Yen against the US dollar, as we reported here.
"As these testing trading conditions continue, Sony does not believe that it will be alone in taking this form of action."
I'm not sure the pound has ever boomed against the yen - when I first went to Japan back in the early 1990s it was around the Y250-270/£1 mark, and it's been in the Y200-230/£1 range for the past few years.
Today it stands at Y141/£1, which is seriously low. So I'm not quite sure anyone is profiteering by any back door. More like making it clear that it will have to increase prices - which I am sure is the last thing any company wants to do in the current economic climate - and explaining why. As it says, I don't think it'll be the only company eyeing this situation with concern.
And it's not something Sony will take lightly: it's already revised its profit forecasts substantially as a result of the strength of the Yen against the US dollar, as we reported here.
Interesting article, and given the current climate makes it more so. But I like to be a bit of a devil's advocate and It could be a clever little way of getting some customers, who may be on the cusp of purchasing a Sony product to do so now rather than later. Therefore beating any potential price increase.
Personally, I think that going forward, trading conditions are going to be very difficult for allÿbusinessesÿand bargains will be available, just got to shop around.
Personally, I think that going forward, trading conditions are going to be very difficult for allÿbusinessesÿand bargains will be available, just got to shop around.
Think we`ve been a bit spoilt lately with prices coming down on most products, so much so that we`ve come to expect it, if prices suddenly start to soar it`s going to hit us hard. I think what is likely to happen is that brand new products might not sell as well as people will look for bargains on last years model instead.(I know that goes on a lot already but it could happen even more so) Ah well, let`s wait and see.
I've been speaking to a few manufacturers lately who've said they are/soon will be hit by the weak pound against the dollar. All component prices, you see, are in dollars - so the cost of building something just got a lot more expensive....
It'll be interesting to see what prices some of the new, 2009 products come in at - my guess is that we'll see a lot of manufacturers (in hi-fi and AV) stressing the value of products rather than the price: ie focussing on how much more a product offers for the money, even if the price tag is a little higher.
And there's a point there - certainly in TVs and AV, we're seeing year-on-year improvement in performance coupled with a year-on-year fall in prices. If (always a big if) the improvements justify pricing on a par/slightly above 2008 levels, that gives the consumer the choice of paying slightly more for a superior product, or less for a slightly older (but still great) model.
It'll be interesting to see what prices some of the new, 2009 products come in at - my guess is that we'll see a lot of manufacturers (in hi-fi and AV) stressing the value of products rather than the price: ie focussing on how much more a product offers for the money, even if the price tag is a little higher.
And there's a point there - certainly in TVs and AV, we're seeing year-on-year improvement in performance coupled with a year-on-year fall in prices. If (always a big if) the improvements justify pricing on a par/slightly above 2008 levels, that gives the consumer the choice of paying slightly more for a superior product, or less for a slightly older (but still great) model.
now this is my point,as components are priced in dollars,the pound until recentlywas strong against the dollar risng to over 2 dollars to the pound but did prices at sony shops drop accordingly ? i dont think so.to now claim prices must rise because of the week pound is taking us for idiots when yamaha who use the same components recently cut prices.
avnut:now this is my point,as components are priced in dollars,the pound until recentlywas strong against the dollar risng to over 2 dollars to the pound but did prices at sony shops drop accordingly ? i dont think so.to now claim prices must rise because of the week pound is taking us for idiots when yamaha who use the same components recently cut prices.
It's not the pound/dollar rate that concerns Sony as much as the Yen/Dollar rate, naturally....
but yes, prices HAVE dropped recently! Take, for example, the Sony PS3 - originally £425, now £300 or less. And this year's TVs and DVD recorders etc are cheaper than last year's, and the year before that... This isn't Sony specific, obviously - you could say the same for Panasonic, Toshiba, etc
And the Yamaha price cuts were nothing to do with component-pricing issues, merely a marketing decision.
It's not the pound/dollar rate that concerns Sony as much as the Yen/Dollar rate, naturally....
but yes, prices HAVE dropped recently! Take, for example, the Sony PS3 - originally £425, now £300 or less. And this year's TVs and DVD recorders etc are cheaper than last year's, and the year before that... This isn't Sony specific, obviously - you could say the same for Panasonic, Toshiba, etc
And the Yamaha price cuts were nothing to do with component-pricing issues, merely a marketing decision.
im in the market for the sony 2400 es £379 @richer sounds and the small jamo,s but will wait while jan till i buy. Isn't it custom that new products come out at a price then six months later there cheaper. all makers will im sure try to cut prices to sell if the market is slow, supply and demand look at oil now less than 50 a barrel.
point is i think its a ploy i agree with highway to get people to buy now instead of waiting for the sales.
point is i think its a ploy i agree with highway to get people to buy now instead of waiting for the sales.
ianandyr
Well-known member
We are headed for interesting times. Very few companies supplying goods in the UK are unaffected by the weakness of the pound which isÿweak compared to the Dollar, the Yuan and the Yen and may well stay so for some time.ÿPretty much every bit of hi-fi we buy is either designed, manufactured or contains components sourced from (or priced in the currency of) at least one of those three countries. Normally this would mean prices have to rise. Yet, if you are Sony, Yamaha or indeed any manufacturer with a significant market in the UK you face a situation where your demand is dropping and may drop further which would normally mean you lower your prices. In those circumstances it'sÿhard to predict with any confidence what will happen.
bobbys:
point is i think its a ploy i agree with highway to get people to buy now instead of waiting for the sales.
As Andrew said, I wouldn't rule that out, either!
point is i think its a ploy i agree with highway to get people to buy now instead of waiting for the sales.
As Andrew said, I wouldn't rule that out, either!
Price rises really arent justified no matter what the climate. We already pay alot more for the same product that they do in the USA. For example a brand new game costs upto £50 here in the UK whereas in the US it only costs $60 and if you do your sums £50 is about $90! Other products such as the Sony PS3 and Xbox360 cost alot more over here than they do in the States, PS3 is $399.99 on the US amazon website which at one point amounted to £200, however its never been that cheap over here, not even when the £1 was worth $2??
http://www.amazon.com/Xbox-360-Elite-Holiday-Bundle-120GB/dp/B001FPFVD0/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=videogames&qid=1227452892&sr=8-1
http://www.amazon.com/PlayStation-3-80GB/dp/B001COU9I6/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=videogames&qid=1227452937&sr=8-1
As for TV's they released a 120HZ W series TV a while back and its around $1100 dollars. We get a 100Hz tv now which is worth £1000, i dunno which tv is better but the price difference is a JOKE.
http://www.amazon.com/Sony-Bravia-KDL-40W4100-40-Inch-1080p/dp/B0017Q8B66/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&qid=1227452602&sr=8-3
Even Bluray films are cheaper over there $24 for The Dark Knight, itl be around £20 when it comes out over here. I know the UK Sterling has gone weak but £20 still amounts to over $30!!
If companies are going to increase prices over the current state of sterling, why didnt we see great reductions when the Pound was worth 2 dollars?
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B001GZ6QEC/ref=s9subs_c1_74_img3-rfc_p-frt_p-3237_g1_si2?pf_rd_m=ATVPDKIKX0DER&pf_rd_s=center-1&pf_rd_r=1FYDRTZHQ071N15JESMQ&pf_rd_t=101&pf_rd_p=463383351&pf_rd_i=507846
Whoever thinks we have become used to reduced prices is wrong, we have never had a good deal here in the UK.
Its all a big CON!
http://www.amazon.com/Xbox-360-Elite-Holiday-Bundle-120GB/dp/B001FPFVD0/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=videogames&qid=1227452892&sr=8-1
http://www.amazon.com/PlayStation-3-80GB/dp/B001COU9I6/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=videogames&qid=1227452937&sr=8-1
As for TV's they released a 120HZ W series TV a while back and its around $1100 dollars. We get a 100Hz tv now which is worth £1000, i dunno which tv is better but the price difference is a JOKE.
http://www.amazon.com/Sony-Bravia-KDL-40W4100-40-Inch-1080p/dp/B0017Q8B66/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&qid=1227452602&sr=8-3
Even Bluray films are cheaper over there $24 for The Dark Knight, itl be around £20 when it comes out over here. I know the UK Sterling has gone weak but £20 still amounts to over $30!!
If companies are going to increase prices over the current state of sterling, why didnt we see great reductions when the Pound was worth 2 dollars?
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B001GZ6QEC/ref=s9subs_c1_74_img3-rfc_p-frt_p-3237_g1_si2?pf_rd_m=ATVPDKIKX0DER&pf_rd_s=center-1&pf_rd_r=1FYDRTZHQ071N15JESMQ&pf_rd_t=101&pf_rd_p=463383351&pf_rd_i=507846
Whoever thinks we have become used to reduced prices is wrong, we have never had a good deal here in the UK.
Its all a big CON!
matthewpiano
Well-known member
This is not profiteering or about trying to prompt pre-Christmas sales. Sony are taking this issue extremely seriously and have staved off price increases for a long long time.
To be honest, price rises have looked inevitable for some time. Prices are currently artificially low with little money actually being made. This has not been helped by the loss-leader tactics being employed by the likes of DSG retail group who have recently been selling several items at a loss with the hope of regaining margins through add-on saes.
Developing new technology and bringing it to market costs huge money and the prevailing attitude of 'I want the best but I don't want to pay for it' will have to come to an end unless we want to become a country where only yesterday's technology is available.
There is no con, just economic forces and realism in what are difficult trading conditions for the majority of companies.
To be honest, price rises have looked inevitable for some time. Prices are currently artificially low with little money actually being made. This has not been helped by the loss-leader tactics being employed by the likes of DSG retail group who have recently been selling several items at a loss with the hope of regaining margins through add-on saes.
Developing new technology and bringing it to market costs huge money and the prevailing attitude of 'I want the best but I don't want to pay for it' will have to come to an end unless we want to become a country where only yesterday's technology is available.
There is no con, just economic forces and realism in what are difficult trading conditions for the majority of companies.
matthewpiano:This is not profiteering or about trying to prompt pre-Christmas sales. Sony are taking this issue extremely seriously and have staved off price increases for a long long time.
To be honest, price rises have looked inevitable for some time. Prices are currently artificially low with little money actually being made. This has not been helped by the loss-leader tactics being employed by the likes of DSG retail group who have recently been selling several items at a loss with the hope of regaining margins through add-on saes.
Developing new technology and bringing it to market costs huge money and the prevailing attitude of 'I want the best but I don't want to pay for it' will have to come to an end unless we want to become a country where only yesterday's technology is available.
There is no con, just economic forces and realism in what are difficult trading conditions for the majority of companies.
This is already a country where we only get yesterdays technology, look at our broadband, its abysmal compared to the US and even Korea! As for artificial price rises, it think paying a grand for a top tv is more than enough for what its worth. A tv will remain a tv at the end of the day and if companys like Sony want to increase prices then they will see alot of people who dnt have flat panel tv's stick to their trusted CRTs.
If a company wants their product to become mainstream then the only way it will do that is by making it appeal to the majority of the public. Alot of people are happy with the technology they have in their homes right now which includes a dvd player and a crt. DVD went mainstream when it became affordable not when it became more expensive.
In the current climate where unemployment is high and food is expensive, people wont give two hoots as to the latest bluray player or the thinnest blackest LCD/Plasma on the market. People are quite happy with the perfect blacks they get on their 15year old CRT's.
To be honest, price rises have looked inevitable for some time. Prices are currently artificially low with little money actually being made. This has not been helped by the loss-leader tactics being employed by the likes of DSG retail group who have recently been selling several items at a loss with the hope of regaining margins through add-on saes.
Developing new technology and bringing it to market costs huge money and the prevailing attitude of 'I want the best but I don't want to pay for it' will have to come to an end unless we want to become a country where only yesterday's technology is available.
There is no con, just economic forces and realism in what are difficult trading conditions for the majority of companies.
This is already a country where we only get yesterdays technology, look at our broadband, its abysmal compared to the US and even Korea! As for artificial price rises, it think paying a grand for a top tv is more than enough for what its worth. A tv will remain a tv at the end of the day and if companys like Sony want to increase prices then they will see alot of people who dnt have flat panel tv's stick to their trusted CRTs.
If a company wants their product to become mainstream then the only way it will do that is by making it appeal to the majority of the public. Alot of people are happy with the technology they have in their homes right now which includes a dvd player and a crt. DVD went mainstream when it became affordable not when it became more expensive.
In the current climate where unemployment is high and food is expensive, people wont give two hoots as to the latest bluray player or the thinnest blackest LCD/Plasma on the market. People are quite happy with the perfect blacks they get on their 15year old CRT's.
I agree with Ginder, we're already paying over the odds compared with the US and probably Japan/Europe aswell. The manufacturers are getting away with it because they can. At the end of the day, if we're prepared to pay a certain price for a particular product then there's no reason for the manufacturer to reduce prices. It's simple supply and demand rules.
They say patience is a virtue. If demand drops off the scale, which based on everything we see on TV at present suggests it will, I for one certainly won't be buying products from any manufacturer if prices go up. I will wait until TV's and AV equipment represent good value.
They say patience is a virtue. If demand drops off the scale, which based on everything we see on TV at present suggests it will, I for one certainly won't be buying products from any manufacturer if prices go up. I will wait until TV's and AV equipment represent good value.
Ginder:Price rises really arent justified no matter what the climate. We already pay alot more for the same product that they do in the USA.
That all may be true, but the UK is still getting it for a steal compared to some places out there. Was passing through SA on business and bought the local What HI FI, the recommended retail price there of the Denon 1909 is 833 pounds!!!!
That all may be true, but the UK is still getting it for a steal compared to some places out there. Was passing through SA on business and bought the local What HI FI, the recommended retail price there of the Denon 1909 is 833 pounds!!!!
Ravey Gravey Davy
Well-known member
The HiFi Industry in the UK is an Oligopoly- discuss
Alternative - put up or shut up
Second alternative - recognise the different levels of duty and taxation in different countries.Also their distance from source which increases freight costs and then if we really want to give some people credit, realise most extant businesses are not stupid- if they overprice people do not buy.Also the pound dollar ratio over the past 5 years has been between 1.76 and 2.01.Now it is 1.48 and intolerable.
5 years ago I bought a 26 inch LCD Panasonic when the rate was 1.75,for £1800 partly due to the rate but mostly because the development costs were still being amortised.In June this year, dollar 1.98, I bought a 37 inch plasma for £560.Who says that is a rip off!
The new draft budget is allegedly reducing VAT- why- so we can keep businesses going because it costs the taxpayer an awful lot more to issue benefits/cover pension contributions to ex employees than to keep businesss profitable and paying NIC and corporation tax.
Stop blaming the retailer and look at the world economy-we are lucky.
Oh- and I would hate to think what would happen to anybodys salary or savings if we did not rescue the banks.The price difference of a telly here and in the USA would be as important as Strictly Come Help Get Me get out of this Celebrity.(an insects view)
Edit -this is merging with the far right teens thread-but I am not posting twice
Alternative - put up or shut up
Second alternative - recognise the different levels of duty and taxation in different countries.Also their distance from source which increases freight costs and then if we really want to give some people credit, realise most extant businesses are not stupid- if they overprice people do not buy.Also the pound dollar ratio over the past 5 years has been between 1.76 and 2.01.Now it is 1.48 and intolerable.
5 years ago I bought a 26 inch LCD Panasonic when the rate was 1.75,for £1800 partly due to the rate but mostly because the development costs were still being amortised.In June this year, dollar 1.98, I bought a 37 inch plasma for £560.Who says that is a rip off!
The new draft budget is allegedly reducing VAT- why- so we can keep businesses going because it costs the taxpayer an awful lot more to issue benefits/cover pension contributions to ex employees than to keep businesss profitable and paying NIC and corporation tax.
Stop blaming the retailer and look at the world economy-we are lucky.
Oh- and I would hate to think what would happen to anybodys salary or savings if we did not rescue the banks.The price difference of a telly here and in the USA would be as important as Strictly Come Help Get Me get out of this Celebrity.(an insects view)
Edit -this is merging with the far right teens thread-but I am not posting twice
matthewpiano
Well-known member
pejwright:
I agree with Ginder, we're already paying over the odds compared with the US and probably Japan/Europe aswell. The manufacturers are getting away with it because they can. At the end of the day, if we're prepared to pay a certain price for a particular product then there's no reason for the manufacturer to reduce prices. It's simple supply and demand rules.
Its not as simple as that. Supply and demand is only one part of the equation. The other part is the costs involved in developing, manufacturing, transporting and retailing a product. If these costs increase substantially, for whatever reason, the price will eventually have to go up.
pejwright:
They say patience is a virtue. If demand drops off the scale, which based on everything we see on TV at present suggests it will, I for one certainly won't be buying products from any manufacturer if prices go up. I will wait until TV's and AV equipment represent good value.
They already do represent good value and will continue to do so even with higher prices. Standards have risen dramatically, particularly in TVs, and the technology available is becoming more and more impressive all the time. Meanwhile, prices have dropped substantially over the last couple of years. Some adjustment of the market is vital to ensure that quality is maintained and new technologies continue to be implemented.
I agree with Ginder, we're already paying over the odds compared with the US and probably Japan/Europe aswell. The manufacturers are getting away with it because they can. At the end of the day, if we're prepared to pay a certain price for a particular product then there's no reason for the manufacturer to reduce prices. It's simple supply and demand rules.
Its not as simple as that. Supply and demand is only one part of the equation. The other part is the costs involved in developing, manufacturing, transporting and retailing a product. If these costs increase substantially, for whatever reason, the price will eventually have to go up.
pejwright:
They say patience is a virtue. If demand drops off the scale, which based on everything we see on TV at present suggests it will, I for one certainly won't be buying products from any manufacturer if prices go up. I will wait until TV's and AV equipment represent good value.
They already do represent good value and will continue to do so even with higher prices. Standards have risen dramatically, particularly in TVs, and the technology available is becoming more and more impressive all the time. Meanwhile, prices have dropped substantially over the last couple of years. Some adjustment of the market is vital to ensure that quality is maintained and new technologies continue to be implemented.
I don't think anyone is blaming the retailers, they have to make a profit (or at least not make a loss) but I still tend to think that demand and supply will dictate what prices the manufacturers charge (the retailers and ultimately the consumer).
It's just my opinion, but in the current climate I can't see people lining up to pay higher prices for any products.
It's just my opinion, but in the current climate I can't see people lining up to pay higher prices for any products.
grdunn123
Well-known member
I think what Sony and others have to remember is that we are officially in a recession and that raising prices in the UK will result in even fewer sales in the coming year(s). Walmart in the USA is about to launch the world's cheapest Blu Ray player at about $128 or about £75-80 so I think that big on line sellers like Amazon will keep their hardware prices low but we may see a rise in the software prices..........after all everyone who buys the hardware inevitably buys the software.
However, I'm after a Blu Ray player and will probably buy before Xmas just in case I'm wrong.....
However, I'm after a Blu Ray player and will probably buy before Xmas just in case I'm wrong.....
If Sony have decided upon this pricing strategy then you can be sure the other japanese manufacturers are following suit.
As someone who imports products priced in Euro's to the UK I can appreciate the difference changes in FX rates make. You can hold prices for so long in the hope that rates move back but eventually price increases become inevitable.
Consumer electronics are incredible value in real terms and have been for some years. I've never been able to understand how it was possible to sell some stuff as cheap as has been happening in the last few years - i bought a toshiba DVD player for a relation a couple of years ago for £20. That had to be manufactured, packaged, shipped round the world, transported within the UK and a profit taken by the retailer.
The first VHS i remember in my family, possibly 25 years ago, cost £300 for the base JVC model of the time. The first i bought when i left home, around 15 years ago, cost me £370 for a base Akai. My first CD player, over 20 years ago, was a base model Technics that i cost £170. My last, mid range 32" Sony CRT set retailed for £1000 8 years ago.
A 42" high end Sony LCD can be had for less than a grand with a blu-ray player thrown in. Prices have actually dropped in nominal terms let alone real terms.
Consumer electronics are incredible value in real terms and have been for some years. I've never been able to understand how it was possible to sell some stuff as cheap as has been happening in the last few years - i bought a toshiba DVD player for a relation a couple of years ago for £20. That had to be manufactured, packaged, shipped round the world, transported within the UK and a profit taken by the retailer.
The first VHS i remember in my family, possibly 25 years ago, cost £300 for the base JVC model of the time. The first i bought when i left home, around 15 years ago, cost me £370 for a base Akai. My first CD player, over 20 years ago, was a base model Technics that i cost £170. My last, mid range 32" Sony CRT set retailed for £1000 8 years ago.
A 42" high end Sony LCD can be had for less than a grand with a blu-ray player thrown in. Prices have actually dropped in nominal terms let alone real terms.
ianandyr
Well-known member
Might be right, might not. ÿ
http://www.electricpig.co.uk/2008/11/24/sony-2009-leaked-ps3-price-cuts-in-march-littlebigplanet-psp-uncharted-2/
http://www.electricpig.co.uk/2008/11/24/sony-2009-leaked-ps3-price-cuts-in-march-littlebigplanet-psp-uncharted-2/
SouthFly:
Ginder:Price rises really arent justified no matter what the climate. We already pay alot more for the same product that they do in the USA.
That all may be true, but the UK is still getting it for a steal compared to some places out there. Was passing through SA on business and bought the local What HI FI, the recommended retail price there of the Denon 1909 is 833 pounds!!!!
Being a South African,I feel very strongly about the exorbitant prices that we are paying.Granted the dealers have to turnover a profit but not to the point of ripping off the loyal consumers and the irony is that the dealers need the consumers to stay in business.
The other issue that we have here is the lack of latest AV equipment. Sony and Panasonic for example have said that their "latest" BD Players,namely the BDP S550 and BD55 will only be available early next year and they'd be going for a packet I'd imagine and they have given no plausible explanations for this delay.The only BD players that are available are the Denons and Yamahas, and the Denon 2500BT have been priced at R20,000.00 (1,350 Pounds) which is way too steep for todays' economic climate.So our only other alternative is to try and import these players,which will be far cheaper by the way, but it does have a certain element of risk attached to it. So, we are certainly much worse off than you guys over in the UK when it come to pricing and availablity of equipment.
PS - To all my English Forum Buddies, my condolences for the rugby over the week-end. At least we still are ahead in certain areas.
Ginder:Price rises really arent justified no matter what the climate. We already pay alot more for the same product that they do in the USA.
That all may be true, but the UK is still getting it for a steal compared to some places out there. Was passing through SA on business and bought the local What HI FI, the recommended retail price there of the Denon 1909 is 833 pounds!!!!
Being a South African,I feel very strongly about the exorbitant prices that we are paying.Granted the dealers have to turnover a profit but not to the point of ripping off the loyal consumers and the irony is that the dealers need the consumers to stay in business.
The other issue that we have here is the lack of latest AV equipment. Sony and Panasonic for example have said that their "latest" BD Players,namely the BDP S550 and BD55 will only be available early next year and they'd be going for a packet I'd imagine and they have given no plausible explanations for this delay.The only BD players that are available are the Denons and Yamahas, and the Denon 2500BT have been priced at R20,000.00 (1,350 Pounds) which is way too steep for todays' economic climate.So our only other alternative is to try and import these players,which will be far cheaper by the way, but it does have a certain element of risk attached to it. So, we are certainly much worse off than you guys over in the UK when it come to pricing and availablity of equipment.
PS - To all my English Forum Buddies, my condolences for the rugby over the week-end. At least we still are ahead in certain areas.
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