Sonos vs Apple MacMini / Outboard DAC vs Onboard Arcam

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Currently have 1000 ish albums ripped onto my PC system at roughly 192kbs mp3 format. I sync my iPod with everything then just plug into my AVR350 with a Russ Andrews cable iPod connector.

Toying with trying to improve sound by moving to uncompressed/lossless + getting a nicer way to browse/choose music than faffing around with the iPod interface at the end of a cable.

Meridien Sooloos looks very cool, but don't like the idea of big boxes or having to hardwire everything together (or £12k!), and I don't want to reinvent the wheel with one box whatsits like Naim or Solo, and I like flexibility of hardware upgrades on my existing PC, so wireless it must be.

Have come up with a few options:
[*]Sonos ZoneBridge £79 wired to my router to provide access to PC music library + CR200 Controller £279 + ZonePlayer £279 with digital out/in to the AVR350
[*]Apple MacMini £700 ish with keyboard/mouse, share my library on the PC so the mac can pick it up over it's in-built wireless then digital out to the AVR350.
Not much in it price wise but with Mac would get option of having a computer in lounge using my plasma as display so could browse web etc. Also could use digital in on the MacMini to record sound/music recorded off-air e.g. from Satellite.

Anyone doing this? Thoughts? Not even sure it's possible for Mac to share a library running on a PC? Is a MacMini any louder than a Sky+ HD box?

Secondly, I'm assuming that the onboard DAC in the AVR is good enough that I'd have to spend lots more on an outboard DAC for the differences in sound quality to be significant?
 
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Anonymous

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Or you could just get an Apple Airport express and take the digital output of that into the AVR. Thats what I do in my "work system" and it sounds not half bad with a variety of sources. I've got a Sonos system at home and it's a lot more user friendly no need to have a PC on whatever but for about 100 quid (AAE plus mini optical cable) the Airport Express solution takes some beating.

If you want to spend some more money buy a seperate DAC so AAE-----DAC------AVR thats what I plan on doing but am waiting for the new budget ARCAM DAC to come out.
 
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Anonymous

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I'd discounted the AAE option as I wanted independent control of whatever's playing...
An Arcam DAC is definitely worth holding out for, would certainly round off my current line up.
 
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Anonymous

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Logitech Transporter has now crawled out of the woodwork and onto my radar, albeit for twice the price of my first two options if I buy from the UK (although temptingly nearly half the price if buying from the US which just brings it into budget).

  • Transporter : one box solution + remote, but have to put Squeezebox Server on my machine (not an issue as won't be using a NAS, just my always on PC which already has RAID mirroring running). Aesthetic 'fit' a bit better as it looks like a seperate.
  • Sonos : two boxes + remote, not as good aesthetic fit.
  • MacMini : one box + keyboard/mouse, native iTunes integration.
 

Gozaradio

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Or Apple Airport Express plus an iPod Touch.

This would give you the independent control you want plus it's a portable music player and you can use it for other things while you play music at home (web, mail, games, apps, etc).

I was dubious about how good the Airport Express setup would be but I've been mightily impressed with the sound quality and slickness of the whole setup. Plus the Airport Express has come in handy for me on other occassions (used it as a wireless router at short notice when the alternative was unusable, and I have used it for connecting a cheap USB printer to my network.)

I would say it's one of the best products apple have produced. Now if they would only create an improved model which could access an iTunes library on a NAS without a PC being on.........
 

kinda

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You don't need a bridge and a zoneplayer. If you can hardwire the
player to the router you don't need the bridge.

You'd also be
better buying an iPod Touch than the Sonos controller. A free app by
Sonos lets you control what's playing.

Sonos will allow you to play music from network attached storage
without having the PC on, and is also the start of a proper multi-room
music system.

If you're not bothered about that I'd just get an
iPod Touch and control iTunes on your current PC. Then connect the PC to your AV amp either directly via SPDIF if possible or via airport express. I can't really see the point of introducing the Mac mini unless you've got some other requirement for it.

I have the Sonos and I think it's great. Straight into my Marantz AV amp the sound is really great, (listening to some internet radio on it now actually).
 
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Anonymous

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Apologies for long post, but thought people might be interested in the outcome of my deliberations.

So, my route to wireless over the weekend: Started out buying an Airport Express. (Reasoned it was only 80 quid and a cheap way to test concept, can always take it back). Found it a complete nightmare to get up and running acting as a client on my existing wireless network, had to do loads of crawling around with paperclips forcing resets and faffing around with manually setting subnets and DHCP addresses. I daresay if I had a Mac system it would have 'just worked', but like a massive % of the world, I don't and it didn't.

Eventually got it up and running reliably, but was only using phono lead (the 3.5mm jack to optical cable is a online order only job and I didn't want to go through faff for a proof of concept).

Then I did a side by side comparison with the same song (Woman in Chains, Tears for Fears - fabulous recording, great staging) played off 1) CD from the DV139 via digital out into my AVR350 2)DV139 analogue out into AVR350 'direct' mode 3) my iPod through a Russ Andrews iPod cable and finally 4) VBR mp3 at approx 190kbps from iTunes on my PC in study over wirless to the Airport Express in my lounge.

Both 3 and 4 were perfectly acceptable and very hard to tell apart without a lot of listening. Even then I'd only describe differences as style rather than substance. I'd be nitpicking differences (iPod marginally had it for me).

There was clear air between either mp3 versions and the DV139 output, not so much that you would instantly class it as revelatory (unlike the step from vhs to dvd), but on extended listing I found the DV139 sources had a hell of a lot more presence, articulation and depth around the music. Gave it more 'life'. The mp3 version just sounded 'flatter'. Difference between the DVR139 Digital and Analogue output was much harder to separate.

Whilst I was testing, I did get quite a lot of stuttering and drop outs from the Airport Express. That + the requirement to walk back to the PC in the other room put me off. I know I could have got an iTouch/iPhone but if I was going to do that I might as well go fully Apple and something in me wanted to keep away from their proprietary formats.

I looked long and hard at getting a Mac Mini, but eventually decided against because I forced myself to be really strict and admit that the benefits of having a full computer hooked up to plasma actually weren't that earth shattering (already have a PC, it's no great shakes to get off the sofa if I feel the burning need to look something up on the web). Just seemed like overkill for what I really wanted which was get easier access to my music in a lossless format.

I looked at a Logitech / Squeezebox Transporter too. The audiophile positioning is attractive but best prices were still at least £500 more than a Sonos setup + it needs the Squeezebox server running on my PC. No particular issues with either, but given I was after simplicity, would prefer not to have more software running than necessary and it would be piggy backing my wireless network eating bandwidth I discounted it. Given my amateur listening tests felt the AVR350 was a doing pretty stunning job of the digital output from the DV139 I also doubted that the extra outlay would produce an appreciable sonic difference.

Which left me picking up a Sonos Zonebridge, ZP90 and CR200 controller from my local Richer Sounds at 15:30 on a Sunday afternoon.

I was able to set up within the proverbial minutes and it just worked right out of the box, feeding digital direct to the AVR350.

I repeated my listening tests all streamed over the Sonos now, but this time added WAV and FLAC versions to the mix.

Long story short, again mp3 was flatter, WAV and FLAC are to all intents and purposes unseperateable from CD output (if you put me on the spot, maybe the WAV had slightly more oomph) and showed the same levels of musicality. I think a lot more listening required. Job done + I get instant access to CD quality and musicality of all my music from the cool controller now.

Conclusions : 190kbps is entirely adequate for casual listening and Airport Express would probably be 'good enough' over digital output. I could tell the difference between 'only' mp3 and lossless source material on extended listening, but the gap isn't as massive as you might think (with the caveat that my mp3 was reasonably high quality in the first place). The differences are absolutely there, but I suspect you need good ears and systems to uncover them. It's worth testing your ears with different formats/bit rates to see where your threshold is. I found a great little blind test here.

Suspect Sonos will be getting some more of my money soon if I add players upstairs...
 

Big Aura

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thanks for this - really interesting read!

I've just bought a new house, so any new gadgets need to be cheap! I've been considering an airport, but from reading what you've written, it looks like I'll be leaving it for 12 months or so, then getting a Sonos...

BA
 

Big Aura

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I could easily afford the Sonos if I didn't spend so much on binge-drinking [joke]

I'll wait to make sure we can still afford the mortgage once the Little Aura arrives.
 

kinda

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Hello,

Interested as to why you went for the CR200 over an iPod Touch plus free controller app?

I hate Apple and the cynical way they restrict formats and try to lock people in. However, the iPod Touch as controller was cheaper and then it also has other features like a portable music player, and can increasingly be used to control other devices.

Just wondered what it was that drew you to choose the CR200? I've never used one.
 
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Anonymous

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Nice write up, thanks. FWIW I think you've made the right decision with the Sonos system, the ease of set up and use is still unbeatable I think. I also use a MacMini to play higher bit rate HD downloads which the Sonos can't do, it's only downfall in my opinion.

The Sonos system really is great for multi room music, as long as you have no wireless dropouts in your house it should all work flawlessly.
 
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Anonymous

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I already have an iPod so didn't need another portable music player particularly as the 160Gb model I have can fit my entire music collection on in MP3 format. Something not possible with either iPhone or iTouch as they don't come in big enough sizes.

Went for CR200 as wanted the complete end-to-end one-make system, reasoned might as well go for the hardware the app was designed originally for + I'm fortunate that the extra £100 wasn't particularly an issue. In use it's fast, reassuringly solid and just feels special.

Now, if (as I suspect I might) I add an S5 zoneplayer upstairs, I can probably persuade myself that I'll forget to carry the CR200 upstairs to control it, so I might need an upstairs remote as well. In that instance, I think the case is stronger to opt for a cheap iTouch as alternative - a second CR200 does seem like overkill.
 

The_Lhc

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brotherharry:Now, if (as I suspect I might) I add an S5 zoneplayer upstairs, I can probably persuade myself that I'll forget to carry the CR200 upstairs to control it, so I might need an upstairs remote as well. In that instance, I think the case is stronger to opt for a cheap iTouch as alternative - a second CR200 does seem like overkill.

Just make sure your own wireless coverage extends upstairs as that's what the iTouch will be using, it can't join the Sonos mesh. If not leave the iTouch downstairs and tape the CR200 upstairs.
 
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Anonymous

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So take it from that the iTouch app tries to interface with the Sonos desktop stuff on the host pc?
 

The_Lhc

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No, it communicates with the ZPs via the network but because it isn't Sonos equipment it can't access the Sonos wireless mesh network, so it has to go in via your own wireless router, so its range will be limited to that. The desktop controller is entirely separate and irrelevant, to be honest.
 
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Anonymous

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had a listen to Sonos S5, ubelievable sound quality for the size!! Also amazingly easy to use
 
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Anonymous

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The Sonos is easiest system to get a new computer audio system going. The mesh (as opposed to star..) network design affords far fewer drop outs. Had I not committed to Squeezebox, I would go the Sonos route were I starting from scratch. It is still relatively costly though. And as pointed out the iphone vs cr200, the iPhone app still has to talk to the wireless router as opposed to nearest Sonos mesh node, so wireless range still will be an issue - your are effectievly running two networks with Sonos. Incidentally, I also use Devolo powerline ethernet plugs to maximise data stream bandwidth. I simply added two Devolo wireless extenders in my house which helps my iphone with ipeng.

I think that the Airport Express is a relatively crude (technically not Apple designwise) device that can be harder to intergate within non Apple environments. Heaven know why since Apple rely on PC-centric IP networking protocols after ditching their own proprietory AppleTalk protocol. Also Mac min whilst attractive, is best suited to iTunes, which in turn does not play FLACs, so is limiting.

I think the Squeezebox Transporter is a bit expensive old, overspecified and onboard DAC is now outclassed by the embedded Wolfson 24 bit chipset in the latest Squeezebox Touch. I am waiting for one of these and have high hopes. For the original poster, the SB Touch can function without PC or NAS attached (it runs mini embedded SW to act as its own server) and just play from direct attach external HDD or SD card. With wired and wireless options you could simply stick one next to your hi fi and Powerline it to router or wirless attach if range sufficient.
 
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Anonymous

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simonclayt, anyone who worked with Appletalk will tell you why Apple dumped it. IP isn't PC-centric at all. Wireless dropouts are usually caused by range, interference or simply too many devices accessing at the same time. Topology doesn't really come into it, certainly not at the domestic level.

Yes, any device that can act as a wireless router, has USB for a printer, has a built-in DAC plus an S/PDIF output is clearly from the Stone Age.
 
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Anonymous

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Tarquin, the AEX does not support above 16 bit 44.1 khz (neither does Sonos come to think of it) files with it's on board previous generation Wolfson DAC chip, ergo my assertion that it is crude. Perhaps I should have used term relatively crude. Maybe I am assumptive in thinking that DACs of interest to hifi world encompass 24bit support. I am told Sonos have this coming, Apple prolly too busy stamping out iPhads.

On networking I made no mention of wireless dropouts and was referring to fact that people tend to get at least as many challenges and often more trying to integrate AEX than traditional networking products into their home wi fi/LANs. Issues usually around DNSservers, ip fixed/static addressing and conflict management.
 

The_Lhc

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simonclayt:Tarquin, the AEX does not support above 16 bit 44.1 khz (neither does Sonos come to think of it) files with it's on board previous generation Wolfson DAC chip, ergo my assertion that it is crude. Perhaps I should have used term relatively crude. Maybe I am assumptive in thinking that DACs of interest to hifi world encompass 24bit support. I am told Sonos have this coming,

Really? By whom? Sonos have made no pronouncements on that score, beyond stating (a while ago admittedly) that it wasn't possible on the current hardware (the Sonos digital output is actually 24-bits wide, but 8 of those bits are used for volume control, so it probably IS possible to rig it to handle 24-bit files but at the expense of having a fixed output, that's probably fine on the ZP90 (in fact I've set mine to fixed output and adjust the volume on the amp) but it might be a little awkward with the ZP120!).
 
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Anonymous

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simonclayt:
Tarquin, the AEX does not support above 16 bit 44.1 khz (neither does Sonos come to think of it) files with it's on board previous generation Wolfson DAC chip, ergo my assertion that it is crude. Perhaps I should have used term relatively crude. Maybe I am assumptive in thinking that DACs of interest to hifi world encompass 24bit support. I am told Sonos have this coming, Apple prolly too busy stamping out iPhads.

On networking I made no mention of wireless dropouts and was referring to fact that people tend to get at least as many challenges and often more trying to integrate AEX than traditional networking products into their home wi fi/LANs. Issues usually around DNSservers, ip fixed/static addressing and conflict management.Prophet, do not deny thyself! Look at what you wrote, first paragraph. Mind you, given what you say in the last sentence of your current reply, perhaps you should explain in more detail, I'm intrigued.
 
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Anonymous

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Tarquinh:simonclayt:

Tarquin, the AEX does not support above 16 bit 44.1 khz (neither does Sonos come to think of it) files with it's on board previous generation Wolfson DAC chip, ergo my assertion that it is crude. Perhaps I should have used term relatively crude. Maybe I am assumptive in thinking that DACs of interest to hifi world encompass 24bit support. I am told Sonos have this coming, Apple prolly too busy stamping out iPhads.

On networking I made no mention of wireless dropouts and was referring to fact that people tend to get at least as many challenges and often more trying to integrate AEX than traditional networking products into their home wi fi/LANs. Issues usually around DNSservers, ip fixed/static addressing and conflict management.Prophet, do not deny thyself! Look at what you wrote, first paragraph. Mind you, given what you say in the last sentence of your current reply, perhaps you should explain in more detail, I'm intrigued.

Try second para of my first post. No mention of dropouts within contect AEX, but full mention of challenges for some when integrating AEX into non Apple environments.
 
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Anonymous

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simonclayt:Tarquinh:simonclayt:
Tarquin, the AEX does not support above 16 bit 44.1 khz (neither does Sonos come to think of it) files with it's on board previous generation Wolfson DAC chip, ergo my assertion that it is crude. Perhaps I should have used term relatively crude. Maybe I am assumptive in thinking that DACs of interest to hifi world encompass 24bit support. I am told Sonos have this coming, Apple prolly too busy stamping out iPhads.

On networking I made no mention of wireless dropouts and was referring to fact that people tend to get at least as many challenges and often more trying to integrate AEX than traditional networking products into their home wi fi/LANs. Issues usually around DNSservers, ip fixed/static addressing and conflict management.Prophet, do not deny thyself! Look at what you wrote, first paragraph. Mind you, given what you say in the last sentence of your current reply, perhaps you should explain in more detail, I'm intrigued.

Try second para of my first post. No mention of dropouts within contect AEX, but full mention of challenges for some when integrating AEX into non Apple environments.
Try another one, simon. Look at your original post then look at my response. Sorry, you're just trying to fudge the issue.
 

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