Hello - looking to replace/upgrade a 'vintage' system comprising Arcam Alpha 2, Wharfedale 505.2 and Technics SLP377a. Budget is approx £1.5K (maybe 2K) and purpose is mixed music listening to CDs. Any advice or suggestions very gratefully received as I am out of touch having last looked seriously at buying hifi when i bourght this lot in the late 1980s!
Returner seeks upgrade advice
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Frank Harvey
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Keep your speakers for now, they were very good in their day, and a god design never dates. Not much anyway. This gives you a chance to buy better electronics - rubbish in, rubbish out.
You have plenty to choose from. Cyrus, Naim, Roksan, Rega, Quad, Arcam etc - they all have CD and amp combos in your price range.
If you want to keep it simple and small, try the Quad CDP2 and 99 power amp. Two midi sized slimline boxes with a nice smooth sound that's listenable for hours on end. Rega is similarly smooth, and one of the best pairings musically for the money. Roksan's also laid back. Naim is a littel more exciting than those previously mentioned, with a little more sparkle, and probably our most popular combination at this price point. If you can pick up a recntly discontinued Cyrus amp and CD player, you'll get good value for money, and these have a leaner, more forward presentation suited to those who like their music to demand their attention.
Judging by your current system and what you're used to, I'd try the Quad, Rega and Roksan one initially, then try the others if these aren't doing much for you. Take your speakers along for a demo as you'll be able to try tha out against something more modern to see if you think they're worth changing. They probably will be, but holding on to them a bit longer means you'll have a better system long term.
You have plenty to choose from. Cyrus, Naim, Roksan, Rega, Quad, Arcam etc - they all have CD and amp combos in your price range.
If you want to keep it simple and small, try the Quad CDP2 and 99 power amp. Two midi sized slimline boxes with a nice smooth sound that's listenable for hours on end. Rega is similarly smooth, and one of the best pairings musically for the money. Roksan's also laid back. Naim is a littel more exciting than those previously mentioned, with a little more sparkle, and probably our most popular combination at this price point. If you can pick up a recntly discontinued Cyrus amp and CD player, you'll get good value for money, and these have a leaner, more forward presentation suited to those who like their music to demand their attention.
Judging by your current system and what you're used to, I'd try the Quad, Rega and Roksan one initially, then try the others if these aren't doing much for you. Take your speakers along for a demo as you'll be able to try tha out against something more modern to see if you think they're worth changing. They probably will be, but holding on to them a bit longer means you'll have a better system long term.
I always enjoy buying used items aswell as looking at combining them with new.... with a budget of £2000, ....
and with a quick look on ebay, ... and looking at buy it nows, I would very look closely at this setup:
IMF TLS 80 speakers (4 way transmission design) ... £675 on buy it now
Musical Fidelity A5 integrated amp ... (250 watts @ 8 ohms) ... £750 on buy it now
A brand new Rega Apollo CDP for approx £475
brings the total to £1900 ... add a silver high breed interconnect for £30, and good used speaker cable for £70 and you will have a very good system ....
obviously, if you shop around and are patient, you will find these items cheaper ... I doubt if there are many new systems at this price that will be better
and with a quick look on ebay, ... and looking at buy it nows, I would very look closely at this setup:
IMF TLS 80 speakers (4 way transmission design) ... £675 on buy it now
Musical Fidelity A5 integrated amp ... (250 watts @ 8 ohms) ... £750 on buy it now
A brand new Rega Apollo CDP for approx £475
brings the total to £1900 ... add a silver high breed interconnect for £30, and good used speaker cable for £70 and you will have a very good system ....
obviously, if you shop around and are patient, you will find these items cheaper ... I doubt if there are many new systems at this price that will be better
Thanks David - appreciate your recommendations.
I've really enjoyed my current system. On simple stuff, say Sinead O'Conner or the Three Tenors, it sounds good but I think it gets a bit 'muddy' when asked to work hard on more complex material. Something like Rimsky Korsakov's 'Sheherezade' for example can sort of recede and become flat, if that makes any sense! I don't listen very loud, but do want enough out of a system to dominate the room.
On classical I also think that strings can start to loose clarity and edge and end up buzzing and sounding like they are synthesised. I don't mean to get these out of proportion, they are minor criticisms bourne of long acquaintance with a system that has been an old friend and offered outstanding value, but if there are areas where I'd like to see improvement it is in this transparency. (I suspect the CD player as the weak link).
Thanks again and any fuirther comments very welcome.
I've really enjoyed my current system. On simple stuff, say Sinead O'Conner or the Three Tenors, it sounds good but I think it gets a bit 'muddy' when asked to work hard on more complex material. Something like Rimsky Korsakov's 'Sheherezade' for example can sort of recede and become flat, if that makes any sense! I don't listen very loud, but do want enough out of a system to dominate the room.
On classical I also think that strings can start to loose clarity and edge and end up buzzing and sounding like they are synthesised. I don't mean to get these out of proportion, they are minor criticisms bourne of long acquaintance with a system that has been an old friend and offered outstanding value, but if there are areas where I'd like to see improvement it is in this transparency. (I suspect the CD player as the weak link).
Thanks again and any fuirther comments very welcome.
Thanks Dim_Span - 2nd hand is interesting. Great value to be had, but more risky for the novice perhaps. i can see many hours of review-reading and chat room frequenting lie ahead!
Frank Harvey
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I'd say your system is getting muddled due to the amp - great little amp, but it's not at home with complex material, and it's not designed to be a hall filler. You need plenty of headroom to stop your system sounding flat, even at moderate levels.
The Technics CD players were great value in their day, and probably still sound decent, and even though they had a knack of playing any CD you put into it, regardless of how scratched they were, they did have a tendancy to lack realism - classical music I think were never their forte.
Many people who come to change a system after a period of 20 years or so are so used to their own system that they tend to instantly dislike modern stuff, although judging by the way you describe the minor criticisms you have with your system, I can tell your more about the music than the equipment itself, so I don't think you'll have a problem adjusing.
The Technics CD players were great value in their day, and probably still sound decent, and even though they had a knack of playing any CD you put into it, regardless of how scratched they were, they did have a tendancy to lack realism - classical music I think were never their forte.
Many people who come to change a system after a period of 20 years or so are so used to their own system that they tend to instantly dislike modern stuff, although judging by the way you describe the minor criticisms you have with your system, I can tell your more about the music than the equipment itself, so I don't think you'll have a problem adjusing.
FrankHarveyHiFi:
Many people who come to change a system after a period of 20 years or so are so used to their own system that they tend to instantly dislike modern stuff,
I think that may be my problem ... have auditioned a few new setups (up to 4K) and did not enjoy the sound,
many people who have heard the same new systems say they are extremely good
Many people who come to change a system after a period of 20 years or so are so used to their own system that they tend to instantly dislike modern stuff,
I think that may be my problem ... have auditioned a few new setups (up to 4K) and did not enjoy the sound,
many people who have heard the same new systems say they are extremely good
IW:Thanks Dim_Span - 2nd hand is interesting. Great value to be had, but more risky for the novice perhaps. i can see many hours of review-reading and chat room frequenting lie ahead!
it's always risky when buying used, but can be worth the effort as many a bargain can be had .... it is also always advisable to collect in person and fully test before parting with cash .... even better if you can audition before bidding
I bought 1 component at a time and slowly upgraded ... worked for me
it's always risky when buying used, but can be worth the effort as many a bargain can be had .... it is also always advisable to collect in person and fully test before parting with cash .... even better if you can audition before bidding
I bought 1 component at a time and slowly upgraded ... worked for me
I think that you should by the system all in one go, ie including the speakers. HiFi dealers always want you to upgrade in the future, hence the advice of Frank Harvey to hold back on the speaker purchase. Don't buy second-hand, you already have second-hand. Instead, visit a few dealers and listen to a complete system that they can assemble, for your budget. Then, try and negotiate a discount for the one that you enjoy the most. The Quad is certainlly excellent with classical, but you may find it hard to get it with speakers for under 2k. If you can't get a discount, they ought to be able to include some extras ie speaker cable, interconnects. Infact, you may be able to get these with a discount! A slightly cheaper alternative is Marantz, whereby you will get the complete system for your cash, plus it will include SACD, well worth having for classical. Good-luck.
Cheers CSE - just happened to mention this to my wife a few minutes ago. She guessed a budget of £5K!! - things are looking up! Now if only the bank manager was so understanding.......
Not sure about getting everything at once - that is what I did last time and it has done me well, but I can also see how spreading the cost results in greater affordability. There's the risk of perpetual dissatisfaction though; spending all your time listening to the system and not the music.
Best bet is to get out to some dealers once the snow is away, leave the credit card at home and have a listen. Any other components I should have on my listening list? Thanks
Not sure about getting everything at once - that is what I did last time and it has done me well, but I can also see how spreading the cost results in greater affordability. There's the risk of perpetual dissatisfaction though; spending all your time listening to the system and not the music.
Best bet is to get out to some dealers once the snow is away, leave the credit card at home and have a listen. Any other components I should have on my listening list? Thanks
Frank Harvey
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dim_span:many people who have heard the same new systems say they are extremely good
I've found quite a few people who don't like the sound of modern speakers because they throw too much information at them. Speakers from the 70's were very warm and soft, with plentiful bass. Speaker manufacturers in the 90's were all trying to produce slimmer speakers to meet market demand, which emant smaller drive units. This made them sound thin and bright compared to the speakers people were trying to get away from.
Thank God the age of the bigger speaker is coming back! Well, a bit anyway.
I've found quite a few people who don't like the sound of modern speakers because they throw too much information at them. Speakers from the 70's were very warm and soft, with plentiful bass. Speaker manufacturers in the 90's were all trying to produce slimmer speakers to meet market demand, which emant smaller drive units. This made them sound thin and bright compared to the speakers people were trying to get away from.
Thank God the age of the bigger speaker is coming back! Well, a bit anyway.
for 5k, I would audition systems, make a shortlist, then would want to audition those items on the shortlist at my home and in my listening room ....
A good dealer would allow you to do this, as the system would sound different in your home to what it sounds like in the dealer's demo room
A good dealer would allow you to do this, as the system would sound different in your home to what it sounds like in the dealer's demo room
Frank Harvey
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cse: I think that you should by the system all in one go, ie including the speakers. HiFi dealers always want you to upgrade in the future, hence the advice of Frank Harvey to hold back on the speaker purchase.
Sorry CSE, you have me all wrong. YOU may think you know how I work, but if you've never sought my advice or dealt with me at our store, you have no idea. The above, in your eyes, could only be true if he was going to purchse from me.
The OP may be more than happy with is speakers. In that case, there's no point in changing them. And what the OP might've spent upgrading them, maybe £500/600, can be put into the all important electronics that are supplying the speakers with the signal they're converting - if it's not there in the first place, nothing after that is going to make up for it.
My recommendation comes as a genuine interest for him to get the most for his money. This gentleman obviously doesn't change things very often as he is more concerned about music than the equipment itself, so it is important to him that he makes the right choices, rather than thinking "well maybe if I'd..." afterwards.
Sorry CSE, you have me all wrong. YOU may think you know how I work, but if you've never sought my advice or dealt with me at our store, you have no idea. The above, in your eyes, could only be true if he was going to purchse from me.
The OP may be more than happy with is speakers. In that case, there's no point in changing them. And what the OP might've spent upgrading them, maybe £500/600, can be put into the all important electronics that are supplying the speakers with the signal they're converting - if it's not there in the first place, nothing after that is going to make up for it.
My recommendation comes as a genuine interest for him to get the most for his money. This gentleman obviously doesn't change things very often as he is more concerned about music than the equipment itself, so it is important to him that he makes the right choices, rather than thinking "well maybe if I'd..." afterwards.
Frank Harvey
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IW: Cheers CSE - just happened to mention this to my wife a few minutes ago. She guessed a budget of £5K!! - things are looking up! Now if only the bank manager was so understanding.......That's a whole new ball game...
Best bet is to get out to some dealers once the snow is away, leave the credit card at home and have a listen. Any other components I should have on my listening list? ThanksSpot on.
Best bet is to get out to some dealers once the snow is away, leave the credit card at home and have a listen. Any other components I should have on my listening list? ThanksSpot on.
He he he - much as I'd luurrrve to have £5K to spend it ain't going to happen! £2K is about me maxed out!
If he doesn't replace the speakers at the same time he will only be discontented. He bought one system together in the past, and stayed with it for 20 years. I can't understand the logic of buying a new system without speakers. Afterall, he isn't intending to pursue HiFi as a hobby. Instead, he wants a new system, that will show significant improvements over his older outdated one. I've always purchased my HiFi components seperately and always been discontented. I often wish that I had just borrowed a signicant sum of money and gone out and bought something excellent and be done with it - almost certainly Quad.
Cheers guys - there's merit in both approaches.
It's really useful to get advice from someone who works in the business all the time and can give me a sense of the relative strengths of the components I have already. So - if anything in the current set-up can offer some more miles, it's most likely the speakers.
It's also true that I made one big purchase decades ago and have been served well by it, so it's appealing to do the same again and sit back to listen to the music. But set against that is that I now have a better job/more disposable income etc etc, so could stretch a budget, it's more about cash-flow nowadays.
Think I'll have to go listen, ideally, as suggested, using my existing speakers for comparison with a new set. I'm sure, particularly with the advice I've been offered by you both, that I'm better equipped to discuss sensibly with a retailer.
It's really useful to get advice from someone who works in the business all the time and can give me a sense of the relative strengths of the components I have already. So - if anything in the current set-up can offer some more miles, it's most likely the speakers.
It's also true that I made one big purchase decades ago and have been served well by it, so it's appealing to do the same again and sit back to listen to the music. But set against that is that I now have a better job/more disposable income etc etc, so could stretch a budget, it's more about cash-flow nowadays.
Think I'll have to go listen, ideally, as suggested, using my existing speakers for comparison with a new set. I'm sure, particularly with the advice I've been offered by you both, that I'm better equipped to discuss sensibly with a retailer.
Frank Harvey
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Wrong.
How do you know the OP won't like his speakers? The difference in the systems I've recomended against the OP's are almost chalk and cheese, and are going to have a huge effect on how the Wharfedale's sound. Have you heard the 505.2's cse? If not, then you're in no position to comment effectively.
Some people are always chasing the impossibe dream, and for them, they will always be discontented. Sounds like you're in that group.
How do you know the OP won't like his speakers? The difference in the systems I've recomended against the OP's are almost chalk and cheese, and are going to have a huge effect on how the Wharfedale's sound. Have you heard the 505.2's cse? If not, then you're in no position to comment effectively.
Some people are always chasing the impossibe dream, and for them, they will always be discontented. Sounds like you're in that group.
Oh - might as well push my luck whilst folks are being very helpful. I'm in Scottish central belt - Edinburgh, Glasgow, Livingston all within easy reach. Any suggestions as to retailers you've known and loved?
FrankHarveyHiFi:
Some people are always chasing the impossibe dream, and for them, they will always be discontented.
she looks happy
Some people are always chasing the impossibe dream, and for them, they will always be discontented.
she looks happy
Frank Harvey
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personally id go for a completey new system with a rega apollo cd player naim nait5i amp and totem rainmaker speakers
loud and clear are dealers according to the totem website naim and rega should be a lot easier to find
you should be able to get a decent discount if the naim sale is still on
loud and clear are dealers according to the totem website naim and rega should be a lot easier to find
you should be able to get a decent discount if the naim sale is still on
Reading back over the thread, it's dawned on me that the other thing that has happened during my ownership is that my music tastes have changed fairly profoundly. I still love bands like Deep Purple, The Who, Frankie goes to Hollywood, Eurythmics and Steeley Dan, but now listen probably more to classical, jass, world, etc. (Mourn the passing of youth! Celebrate my broadening tastes
).
David - Cyrus CD6SE and 8XP? Is that the combination you were referring to when you said that there were bargains to be had from finding a recently discontinued Cyrus? Thanks a lot
David - Cyrus CD6SE and 8XP? Is that the combination you were referring to when you said that there were bargains to be had from finding a recently discontinued Cyrus? Thanks a lot
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