Replacement for my Primare i21 - advice sort please

[busb]

Hi all

My 1st post here! I recently retired a pair of bi-wired SL6s on Something Solid stands for a pair of Totem Arros. My amplifier is a Primare i21. CD is a Rotel RCD 1072 which is my main source with a Panasonic P42V20 TV feeding the optical input of a Beresford TC-1072 DAC. Movies are spun on a Panasonic BDT110 via HDMI into the TV.

The i21 isn't a bad amp but I've been lent a 12yr old Restek Challenger which has tighter bass & a deeper sound stage that gives music a sense of excitement & involvement sadly lacking from the beautifully made i21. I'm after something no worse than the Challenger. Neither Cyrus or Naim would be my 1st choice! The Arros are nominally 4 Ohms & finer remote control of the volume than the i21 allows would be a great advantage - I have to listen a lowish volumes around neighbour's bedtimes!

A very firm grip on the bottom end is a must as is musicality. I'm too old to want a "safe" sound - 25+ years of listening to SL6s gave me that but my ears aren't so burnt out that I wouldn't notice a too sharp a top end.

I was considering a Primare i30 but it's no longer made. I may try to borrow a Roksan Caspiam M2 sometime. A Moon i3.3 is stretching my budget too far & the even more expensive i5.3 is sadly no longer with us.

Regards

 

[oldric_naubhoff]

(...) Restek Challenger which has tighter bass & a deeper sound stage that gives music a sense of excitement & involvement sadly lacking from the beautifully made i21. I'm after something no worse than the Challenger. (...) The Arros are nominally 4 Ohms & finer remote control of the volume (...)

A very firm grip on the bottom end is a must as is musicality.

if you get a chance try Pathos Classic One mkIII, if you like the looks of it (I love it). ticks all boxes. I use it with Dynaudio Focus 110 (also 4 Ohm speakers).

 

[BenLaw]

Google suggests i30 is still widely available. Plenty of ex dem on the 'bay also last time I checked. If you like the sound of your current amp but want more grip, control and depth, you can't go wrong.

 

[busb]

(...) Restek Challenger which has tighter bass & a deeper sound stage that gives music a sense of excitement & involvement sadly lacking from the beautifully made i21. I'm after something no worse than the Challenger. (...) The Arros are nominally 4 Ohms & finer remote control of the volume (...)

A very firm grip on the bottom end is a must as is musicality.

if you get a chance try Pathos Classic One mkIII, if you like the looks of it (I love it). ticks all boxes. I use it with Dynaudio Focus 110 (also 4 Ohm speakers).

Not sure about a valve amp - let alone, a hybrid one unless the output stage is transistor...
May investigate the Primare Pre/power combo though - I'm in no hurry & hope to hang on to the Restek for a few months which I may take along to demos.

I was in Edinburgh visiting a friend who thought his Art Stilletos wasn't up to much basswise. I asked him how old his Audiolab 8000A was. 15ish yrs was the answer. We went to Loud & Clear where I pointed out a Moon i1. We walked back to Old Town, loaded the Arts then went back. We listened to the Moon & a somewhat cheaper Arcam. I managed to talk him out of the latter & we left with an ex-demo Moon i1. My friend was over the moon that weekend! The volume control was very coarse from the remote though. He is very happy.

As a general observation, equipment at this price point should come with a decent remote. My Primare one is shite!

 

[Anonymous]

Primare i30, Creek Destiny and Naim XS. In may opinion these are the best sub 1500 pounds european class AB amps available in UK.

If the budget allowed, I would spend more and get amps like Moon i3.3, Plinius 9200, Ayre AX-7, ATC SIA 2-150 and Luxman L-505u. They are superior but considerably more expensive. Other excellent options are Sugden A21SE and Luxman L-550AII which provides superb mids and highs, but they are expensive and their botton end are thiner and less authoritive in comparison to the mentioned class AB amps.

 

[plastic penguin]

Hi all

My 1st post here! I recently retired a pair of bi-wired SL6s on Something Solid stands for a pair of Totem Arros. My amplifier is a Primare i21. CD is a Rotel RCD 1072 which is my main source with a Panasonic P42V20 TV feeding the optical input of a Beresford TC-1072 DAC. Movies are spun on a Panasonic BDT110 via HDMI into the TV.

The i21 isn't a bad amp but I've been lent a 12yr old Restek Challenger which has tighter bass & a deeper sound stage that gives music a sense of excitement & involvement sadly lacking from the beautifully made i21. I'm after something no worse than the Challenger. Neither Cyrus or Naim would be my 1st choice! The Arros are nominally 4 Ohms & finer remote control of the volume than the i21 allows would be a great advantage - I have to listen a lowish volumes around neighbour's bedtimes!

A very firm grip on the bottom end is a must as is musicality. I'm too old to want a "safe" sound - 25+ years of listening to SL6s gave me that but my ears aren't so burnt out that I wouldn't notice a too sharp a top end.

I was considering a Primare i30 but it's no longer made. I may try to borrow a Roksan Caspiam M2 sometime. A Moon i3.3 is stretching my budget too far & the even more expensive i5.3 is sadly no longer with us.

Regards

Firstly, welcome to the forum...

Leema Pulse (MKI) - that'll tick all your boxes. It has a vice-like grip on the bass, great at idling levels and matches well with Totem. Ah, looks rather nice too.

Brand new examples are available at Sevenoaks, Brighton for about £700.

 

[BenLaw]

Not sure about a valve amp - let alone, a hybrid one unless the output stage is transistor... May investigate the Primare Pre/power combo though - I'm in no hurry & hope to hang on to the Restek for a few months which I may take along to demos. I was in Edinburgh visiting a friend who thought his Art Stilletos wasn't up to much basswise. I asked him how old his Audiolab 8000A was. 15ish yrs was the answer. We went to Loud & Clear where I pointed out a Moon i1. We walked back to Old Town, loaded the Arts then went back. We listened to the Moon & a somewhat cheaper Arcam. I managed to talk him out of the latter & we left with an ex-demo Moon i1. My friend was over the moon that weekend! The volume control was very coarse from the remote though. He is very happy. As a general observation, equipment at this price point should come with a decent remote. My Primare one is shite!

You'll not be surprised to hear, I would highly recommend the Primare pre power! A step up in control and dynamics. I agree re the remote - fwiw I use a Logitech Harmony One, which can be picked up for about £100.

I would also say Audio Maniac has given you a good audition list there.

 

[busb]

Thanks all!

Some great suggestions. I'm in no hurry at all but have booked an appointment at Sevenoaks in Reading to listen to the Roksan Caspian M2 again. Both the Caspian & Creek Destiny 2 have switchable gain so should have pretty fine control at low volumes. I may buy from Staples a wheeled cart so I can take the Restek with me (no car - train)! The other option is a pre/power combo.

Regards

 

[busb]

I literally carted the Restek Challenger to Sevenoaks in
Reading today. Took some CDs, did some shopping then returned with my better
half for some serious listening. CD playback was from a Caspian & speakers
were PMC GB1is. The PMCs were OK but I’ll be sticking with my Arros. Listened
to Fever Ray in particular, David Holmes then some Holst. Great sense of
ambience & tight bass.

Changed over to the Caspian amp. Marginally better bass
control with no loss of stage depth – maybe slightly better. The Caspian is
fleet-footed but also fairly sweet. Black Swan by Thom Yorke sounded nicely
punchy. Got the impression that I could listen to the Caspian amp all d

 

[BenLaw]

Interesting thoughts busb, thanks. Did you decide to go for the roksan or will you still get a chance to audition the primare? From your excellent demo music 🙂 and the way you seem to like your music to sound, I'd say you'd like the combination 🙂

 

[audioaffair]

The Primare I30 now fully out of stock with distributor AV Karma - unless you can find a dealer who still has one. The Primare I32 is a fantastic amp - to my ears an excellent improvement on the I30, if you can spring to for the extra.

 

[busb]

Oh Dear! What HiFi seems to have taken over IE9! My last post was truncated. I have to compose in Word then paste into the comment section. If I don't turn off rich-text, I can't edit or highlight any text - weird or what?

The rest of my last post:

_____________________________________________________________________

Got the impression that I could listen to the Caspian amp all day.

Tried Leema’s Tuscana II. Uncanny detail but a little chrome-plated but obscene grip on the lower registers! The Leema may either not have been on long enough, not completely run in or not entirely suited to the PMCs. At £3.5k, you got to love a fairly analytical sound, IMO. The Caspian M2 amp goes to the top of the list – I may not need to spend as much as I feared I would need to better the Primare i21.

I rang Creek for nearest dealers in Berkshire. Was told to visit London. The guy I spoke with didn’t seem exactly passionate for me to listen to their products. Rang a dealer who said that they could get hold of a Destiny II but said there was better for the same price. Another dealer said that Creek weren’t keen on supplying kit for demo. So if I want to hear the Destiny II, London it will have to be! Creek are listing dealers who are not stocking their gear! The guy I spoke with today was not personally struck by Primare’s i32 but loved their prematurely discontinued i30. I feel duty-bound to check out the Pathos Logos for its looks alone!

 

[oldric_naubhoff]

I feel duty-bound to check out the Pathos Logos for its looks alone!

great stuff. I'd like to hear your impressions after listening to a Pathos amp and how it compares to Caspian for your ears. 😉

 

[Shanka]

Hi,

I went for the Caspian about 6 months ago and still get the pleasure I got out of it when I first set it up and my speakers aren't getting anywhere near the best out of it.
I didn't demo it against Primare but to me it was a far better amp than Naim xs (which you said wasn't for you).
I am looking to put mine with Proac studio 140mk2 speakers, I listened with the pmc you tried and thought great tone but not enough bass for how i like to hear my music.
I didn't try the totem's as was told they would probably be too bass light for my tastes,would you agree, will be interested to see how you get on.

Good luck, I will be watching, have fun.

 

[Shanka]

Hi again,

Didn't see the rest of your post, I did listen to the creek but personally found it a bit lifeless compared to the caspian, just seemed a bit too laid back imo, was listening to it with B&W cm8's which I don't love but got far more life out of them with the caspian, I listen to older rock, reggae and like a lot of drive and punch which is where I thought the caspian excelled.

Good luck, again.

 

[busb]

I feel duty-bound to check out the Pathos Logos for its looks alone!

great stuff. I'd like to hear your impressions after listening to a Pathos amp and how it compares to Caspian for your ears. 😉

 

[busb]

I don't know if anyone else has problems posting here but I am!!!

My reply has disappered into the ether leaving the quote intact. I just can't be bothered to spend 20 mins retyping it! Don't have this problem on other forums

 

[plastic penguin]

I don't know if anyone else has problems posting here but I am!!!

My reply has disappered into the ether leaving the quote intact. I just can't be bothered to spend 20 mins retyping it! Don't have this problem on other forums

I've had a shed-load of problems with posting, editing, formatting...

Think they're still having teething troubles since the site was rejigged.

Anys'way, you like the Caspian? shame you couldn't try the Leema - heard both (Caspian M1) and the MKI Leema; both tremendously informative, and apart from the additional inputs, the Pulse is great at low volume levels.

 

[BenLaw]

Busb, if you're using IE have you turned compatibility mode on?

 

[busb]

Anys'way, you like the Caspian? shame you couldn't try the Leema - heard both (Caspian M1) and the MKI Leema; both tremendously informative, and apart from the additional inputs, the Pulse is great at low volume levels.

It was suggested to me that the Leema Pulse (they had both versions) wasn't up to the standard of the M2, hence me listening to the Tucana II, albeit briefly. I like the sound of the Caspian enough to want to ty one at home sometime. The demo M2s were both black & the remote control was better than average. I wasn't struck by the rotary controls - not enough metal to get a comfortable grip apon. I could live with the looks which I no longer pretend aren't important to me.

Although I trust my ears, I do find listening in either hotel bedrooms & HiFi showrooms fuse my senses very quickly & tend to return to my home system with relief even when it's theoretically inferior. I also know that my own hearing isn't consistent to the extent that any system can sound very muddled at times. Sometimes, improvements aren't immediately obvious & are only noticed after weeks of using a new amplifier for instance. Having said that, some equipment just has the right chemistry. I can clearly remember hearing the Arros for the 1st time & being utterly hooked in AudioT, Reading. They placed a pair of Totem Beaks on top of both cabinets that made absolutely no difference (to my ears) - I didn't find the Arros bright anyhow. 3yrs later, I bought a pair in April & continue to be absolutely delighted with them!

Another piece of stereo equipment that I thought being well beyond any competition was a Lynx Quasar amplifier (made in NZ) that I bought 25yrs ago that died after 20. The borrowed Restek is another amp that punches well above its weight but did cost £999 in 1999. I'm sure I'd love the sound of either a Moon i3.3 or a Primare pre/power combo but am not willing to spend that much money if I don't need to! At least a Tucana II is off my list!

Regards

(IE's Compatibility mode on)

 

[plastic penguin]

Anys'way, you like the Caspian? shame you couldn't try the Leema - heard both (Caspian M1) and the MKI Leema; both tremendously informative, and apart from the additional inputs, the Pulse is great at low volume levels.

It was suggested to me that the Leema Pulse (they had both versions) wasn't up to the standard of the M2, hence me listening to the Tucana II, albeit briefly. I like the sound of the Caspian enough to want to ty one at home sometime. The demo M2s were both black & the remote control was better than average. I wasn't struck by the rotary controls - not enough metal to get a comfortable grip apon. I could live with the looks which I no longer pretend aren't important to me.

Although I trust my ears, I do find listening in either hotel bedrooms & HiFi showrooms fuse my senses very quickly & tend to return to my home system with relief even when it's theoretically inferior. I also know that my own hearing isn't consistent to the extent that any system can sound very muddled at times. Sometimes, improvements aren't immediately obvious & are only noticed after weeks of using a new amplifier for instance. Having said that, some equipment just has the right chemistry. I can clearly remember hearing the Arros for the 1st time & being utterly hooked in AudioT, Reading. They placed a pair of Totem Beaks on top of both cabinets that made absolutely no difference (to my ears) - I didn't find the Arros bright anyhow. 3yrs later, I bought a pair in April & continue to be absolutely delighted with them!

Another piece of stereo equipment that I thought being well beyond any competition was a Lynx Quasar amplifier (made in NZ) that I bought 25yrs ago that died after 20. The borrowed Restek is another amp that punches well above its weight but did cost £999 in 1999. I'm sure I'd love the sound of either a Moon i3.3 or a Primare pre/power combo but am not willing to spend that much money if I don't need to! At least a Tucana II is off my list!

Regards

(IE's Compatibility mode on)

I was surprised to hear you say the Tucana sounded a bit clinical. I've not heard it but if the Pulse is anything to go by, it should be quite organic.

Regards the comparison between the Caspian and Pulse really depends on speakers: If I am to be brutally honest the Caspian edges the Pulse with MAs... it is just a gnats between them though.

When it comes to Totem I heard (home demo) the Arro and PMC DB1is a few months ago and the Arro, with my Arcam CDP, bettered the PMCs, but with something in the region of the Audiolab 8200 CDP, the PMCs found their feet better.

As an overall package: sound, features and inputs, looks... I've not heard anything better than the Pulse around the grand mark. Remember, my version is still available for about £750, brand new.