Real world biwiring results & recent upgrades - hifi fever still rising

[TatuHoo]

Hi all

I have many times read over here about biwiring and it seems to be a topic that stirs emotions and controversy. So I had to find out my self and did some testing and I am writing down results here briefly.

1) I started testing with NAD 356 BEE connected to pair of Dali Ikon 6 Mk's. Source was Marantz CD 6005 via RCA, so CD -player's DAC did the work. When I added another set of cables and did required unpairing of the speaker connects I was ready to find out will there be a difference.

-> To my ears the difference using biwiring was obvious: upper mid range and especially highs were now more precise, articulated. Over all the music sounded more detailed and accurately played. So very postive and undeniable benefit with only small amount of money. Worth every penny as they say!

2) As my hifi fever has gotten worse I have now new a setup for music. I have 2 pcs Audiolab 8000M monoblocks and Audiolab 8000Q pre-amlifier to serve them. Speakers, cables and source remained the same Marantz & it's DAC doing the work. Naturally very soon I wanted to test the biwiring too with my setup.

-> Results were simply put amazing! I have never heard my own system reproducing something with such a precision and dedication to the original recording. Even old muddy recordings, like John Lee Hookers stuff, have full dynamics, naturally the manner of their time. I think the newer recordings, like Dream Theatre's or Audioslave's, Kate Bush's, or Dixie Chic's recent stuff, reveal all of theri dynamics only now!

3) I have done biwiring testing with Marantz SR6007 but then it yielded no results that I could hear. The soucre, the cables and speakers were the same as above.

I think there are 2 crucial factors involved in my good experiences:

- Dali Ikon 6 Mk2 likes biwiring, probably then biamping too. What do you think?

- Marantz SR6007 amplifier, it is my only real-life & at home benchmark, is not so good quality as above Audiolabs or even NAD, and processes the signal in a manner that loses any real potential of biwiring. Naturally I am talkin mere about audio here!

Wll, that's it *biggrin*

 

[cheeseboy]

I'm glad you are enjoying your sound, but to be brutally honest, the testing you have done isn't really worth anything, other than you changing cables.

Just enjoy it for what it is and enjoy the music.

 

[TatuHoo]

I do not see the point you are making. Ears are the measure and all relevant variables remaining exactly the same, but only wiring changed and the change can be heard clearly so it is real! This is brutal & honest empirism *dirol* that will in this particular case be the only valid and relevant measure. Did sound change for the good or bad is already a matter of taste. And there are several solid technical reasons for that too. I think one really big issue in THIS particular case is the speaker electronics!

Cheers *biggrin*

 

[Native_bon]

your kind of story has been heard several times, so if it sounds good to you just be happy, but so many will tell you its just your imagination including myself. Hifi is a very funny business hence so much money can be made from it. If youa re happy thats all that matters.

 

[cheeseboy]

I do not see the point you are making. Ears are the measure and all relevant variables remaining exactly the same, but only wiring changed and the change can be heard clearly so it is real!

The point I am making is that the test you did is about as valid as a chocolate fireguard. It doesn't prove anything (no really, it doesn't) and there's nothing that can be drawn from it (in a scientfic sense) other than you changed some cables.

That's why I said, just enjoy the music, you don't need to justify it to anybody, just be happy you have a system that sounds good to you - that's a lot more than quite a few people manage.

edit - just to say, I mean no offence by what I say, so apologies if it comes across like that, just that threads like this usually don't go anywhere and can lead to frustration, which is something which nobody really wants.

 

[emperor's new clothes]

Hi Tatuhoo,

I have been bi wiring for over 20 years and recently returned to single due to Dynaudio's design philosophy. Agree with above comments.

I am also own Dali Ikon 6 mk2 with Marantz 7007/UD7007. A meaningful improvement can be made by Bi Amping, not bi wiring. The Ikons respond well imho (and benefit from 25-30 cms from the rear wall to avoid any upper bass boom. Manual suggests 20cm)

Consult the manual for wiring instructions. Then in the set up menu select speakers and set bi amp mode. As with any change, re run Audysey DSP. Hopefully you will hear a significant difference - source dependant. A mid range AV amp will never make dedicated stereo amps redundant, but properly set up will run some close. I was listening to Bob Marley's Legend BluRay audio today and the bass depth and definition is very impressive indeed. No sub required! Perhaps also try coax/optical out of the 6005CD into the 6007 and let its DACs do the processing.

Happy listening.

Happy listening.

 

[fr0g]

Biwiring is irrelevant. All it does is double up on wire. If your original wire is too thin and very resistant then it may make a difference, otherwise...nada.

I tried when I used Ikon 6s

A test you can do...Biwire, then put the link back on, essentially making the 2 wires one...There will be zero change...

(Don't do this if you're bi-amping, which is a different thing altogether.)

 

[TatuHoo]

Well, I am a scientist by training, so the things I did above actually are valid, since only one variable is changed, all the rest "ceteris paribus". So, quite logically if I hear a difference between as I repeat bi-wiring on-off-on-off-on-off and the difference repeats and remains, it just is there. Plain and simple.

As you remove the Dali speakers connectors (2 pairs of then naturally, like in the amp too) joining rods you can by plugging in first top connetors, listen, then remove & plug in to the bottom connector, hear how speakers use completely different pieces of electronics to bottom/mid range and high range. Evidence of that can be simply heard. In THIS particular case, using biwiring just improves the sound since it changes the electrical characteristics of the signal in a manner that electronics & speaker elements coupled with them work better and this manifests in my ears as better sound. This is not something I imagine, it is something that just is there. And I am referring ONLY to THIS particular CASE with these particular variables (pieces of hardware) that are in fact in control.

So, I think THIS case can be closed - Give it up guys! *biggrin*

 

[Vladimir]

Well, I am a scientologist by training, so the things I did above actually are valid, since only one variable is changed, all the rest "ceteris paribus". So, quite logically if I hear a difference between as I repeat bi-wiring on-off-on-off-on-off and the difference repeats and remains, it just is there. Plain and simple.

 

[davedotco]

Well, I am a scientist by training, so the things I did above actually are valid, since only one variable is changed, all the rest "ceteris paribus". So, quite logically if I hear a difference between as I repeat bi-wiring on-off-on-off-on-off and the difference repeats and remains, it just is there. Plain and simple.

As you remove the Dali speakers connectors (2 pairs of then naturally, like in the amp too) joining rods you can by plugging in first top connetors, listen, then remove & plug in to the bottom connector, hear how speakers use completely different pieces of electronics to bottom/mid range and high range. Evidence of that can be simply heard. In THIS particular case, using biwiring just improves the sound since it changes the electrical characteristics of the signal in a manner that electronics & speaker elements coupled with them work better and this manifests in my ears as better sound. This is not something I imagine, it is something that just is there. And I am referring ONLY to THIS particular CASE with these particular variables (pieces of hardware) that are in fact in control.

So, I think THIS case can be closed - Give it up guys! *biggrin*

I would be extremely careful of claiming any kind of 'scientific' background in a post that does nothing but display your ignorance in scientific, in this case electrical, matters.

I was going to try and be helpful by explaining how and why you hear what you hear by discussing such well tested phenomena as 'anticipation bias', 'placebo effect' and others, however your complete failure to understand even the basics of what bi-wiring is and what it attempts to do suggests that I shall be wasting my time.

So have fun, enjoy the music and do not offer scientific advice on anything of importance.

 

[Vladimir]

 

[TatuHoo]

The difference of biwiring just remains regardless of what is said here. I am a sociologist by profession & specialized in consumerism where psychological phenomena mentioned here are common place! Any claim about trying to be helpful in this thread, well, just read the thread and to me it shows more arrogance than helpful attitude! There is a name for that phenomena too and it is running wild especially in all kinds of forums , wanna know?

The results are real, it is a kind of a funny but real thing. I never expected it, but there it is. Perhaps someone should repeat my humble test. BTW, before I went to University to study sociology I was a home electronics repair man. I am sure you do not want to have me fixing you telly, because I might make it work better the wrong way *pardon*.

I have to say, I won't probably joke here ever again! I feel unwelcomed. Good work guys!

And yes, I do not have good sense of humor here in forums. It is appaulling how difficult it is to find a forum where people behave like in real life, showing compassion, respect, politeness, all that funny old ****! And I thought this could be it ... .

 

[BryO]

I went from bi wire to setting it as single with a link, which ended being better overall, had the bi wire set up since the 90s, after changing it realised that single wire and links had better sound.

 

[CnoEvil]

The difference of biwiring just remains regardless of what is said here. I am a sociologist by profession & specialized in consumerism where psychological phenomena mentioned here are common place! Any claim about trying to be helpful in this thread, well, just read the thread and to me it shows more arrogance than helpful attitude! There is a name for that phenomena too and it is running wild especially in all kinds of forums , wanna know?

The results are real, it is a kind of a funny but real thing. I never expected it, but there it is. Perhaps someone should repeat my humble test. BTW, before I went to University to study sociology I was a home electronics repair man. I am sure you do not want to have me fixing you telly, because I might make it work better the wrong way *pardon*.

I have to say, I won't probably joke here ever again! I feel unwelcomed. Good work guys!

And yes, I do not have good sense of humor here in forums. It is appaulling how difficult it is to find a forum where people behave like in real life, showing compassion, respect, politeness, all that funny old ****! And I thought this could be it ... .

Don't let the b*****ds get you down. *biggrin*

 

[iQ Speakers]

For what its worth i read the post with interest as the guys that have updated my new Kit to recomend bi-wire. I am a cable sceptic and an electronic engineer. Dave and Vlad can come across slightly abrasive to new posters but they are OK really belive me i had a simular experience! But then you are talking about a contraversial subject. Just as you say in real life, your comments and opinion are based upon earned respect. Its an OK place just try not to take it to heart. See you again.

 

[davedotco]

The difference of biwiring just remains regardless of what is said here. I am a sociologist by profession & specialized in consumerism where psychological phenomena mentioned here are common place! Any claim about trying to be helpful in this thread, well, just read the thread and to me it shows more arrogance than helpful attitude! There is a name for that phenomena too and it is running wild especially in all kinds of forums , wanna know?

The results are real, it is a kind of a funny but real thing. I never expected it, but there it is. Perhaps someone should repeat my humble test. BTW, before I went to University to study sociology I was a home electronics repair man. I am sure you do not want to have me fixing you telly, because I might make it work better the wrong way *pardon*.

I have to say, I won't probably joke here ever again! I feel unwelcomed. Good work guys!

And yes, I do not have good sense of humor here in forums. It is appaulling how difficult it is to find a forum where people behave like in real life, showing compassion, respect, politeness, all that funny old ****! And I thought this could be it ... .

If it helps I will offer an apology for my tone, but you really did set yourself up for some flak with the opening lines of your second post.

"Well, I am a scientist by training, so the things I did above actually are valid, since only one variable is changed, all the rest "ceteris paribus". So, quite logically if I hear a difference between as I repeat bi-wiring on-off-on-off-on-off and the difference repeats and remains, it just is there. Plain and simple."

The complete lack of any understanding as to why that methodology is so totally flawed, at an absolutely basic level, is why you are getting so much adverse comment.

Using your 'scientific training' (sociology) to try an validate a totally subjective, sighted listening test is anathma on this forum. Do you tests, report what you find, take on board the comment and go back and try things again, this is how we all learn about this hobby.

 

[Thompsonuxb]

Tatuhoo pay these fake intellects no mind -there understanding of real world applications is seriously lacking.

They have a tendency to move in groups and support each other whilst trying to ridicule a poster like yourself when genuine logic is presented to them.

Yet never seem to deliver a counter argument to substantiate what they say.

Don't be afraid to enjoy the forum......lol

 

[andyjm]

The scientific argument.

A piece of wire is a linear component, you double the voltage, you double the current. As a result, two separate signals, at different frequencies, can travel down the wire without impacting each other in any way. In the case of a 2 way loudspeaker, with a low pass filter before the bass driver and a hi pass filter before the tweeter, it is as if there are two separate circuits connected to the amplifier. One circuit for bass signals, another for hi frequency. They share the same wire, but don't interact in any way, it is as if they each have their own conductor.

So now lets bi-wire. There are two separate circuits, one for bass signals and one for hi frequency, they don't interact in any way. Each driver has one cable. The same as a single wire system. The only difference is that the wire salesman is happier.

For the pedantic, there is a small difference at the crossover point. A biwire implementation may lead to a small boost in response when both drivers are active. Unless the manufacturer anticipated this in his design, it is possible that a bi-wired speaker could sound worse than a single conductor setup.

 

[cheeseboy]

Well, I am a scientist by training, so the things I did above actually are valid,

if you are a scientist by training you should know that what you did is not valid because there is no reference, no control and doesn't include things like double blind a/b/x testing. These are very fundamental basic principals to carry out a scientific test that nobody claiming to be a scientist conducting "vaild" tests would ignore. heck, the basics of scientific testing are taught at bloody gsce level, so even a 14 year old could pick holes in what you've done.

Therefore, without a shadow of a doubt I will will happily say you are full of rubbish.

 

[cheeseboy]

when genuine logic is presented to them.

Can't decide if you really are a troll or not with comments like this.

edit - Yep, I've decided, you are just trolling for a rise.

 

[ID.]

Tatuhoo pay these fake intellects no mind -there understanding of real world applications is seriously lacking.

They have a tendency to move in groups and support each other whilst trying to ridicule a poster like yourself when genuine logic is presented to them.

Yet never seem to deliver a counter argument to substantiate what they say.

Don't be afraid to enjoy the forum......lol

1. truthiness (noun)

1 : "truth that comes from the gut, not books" (Stephen Colbert, Comedy Central's "The Colbert Report," October 2005)

2 : "the quality of preferring concepts or facts one wishes to be true, rather than concepts or facts known to be true" (American Dialect Society, January 2006)

http://thecolbertreport.cc.com/videos/63ite2/the-word---truthiness

 

[Thompsonuxb]

Andy, c'mon this says nothing and means nothing.

In real world application this equals blah blah......

We're did it come from wiki?

The scientific argument.?

A piece of wire is a linear component, you double the voltage, you double the current.  As a result, two separate signals, at different frequencies, can travel down the wire without impacting each other in any way.  In the case of a 2 way loudspeaker, with a low pass filter before the bass driver and a hi pass filter before the tweeter, it is as if there are two separate circuits connected to the amplifier.  One circuit for bass signals, another for hi frequency.  They share the same wire, but don't interact in any way, it is as if they each have their own conductor.

So now lets bi-wire.  There  are two separate circuits, one for bass signals and one for hi frequency, they don't interact in any way. Each driver has one cable. The same as a single wire system.  The only difference is that the wire salesman is happier.

For the pedantic, there is a small difference at the crossover point.  A biwire implementation may lead to a small boost in response when both drivers are active.  Unless the manufacturer anticipated this in his design, it is possible that a bi-wired speaker could sound worse than a single conductor setup.?

?

 

 

[Thompsonuxb]

Honestly Cheeseboy
Were you find the neck from to call me a troll I do not know.

Please step outside yourself for a moment and read your contribution to this thread alone.

Something not quite right about you.

when genuine logic is presented to them.

Can't decide if you really are a troll or not with comments like this.?

edit - Yep, I've decided, you are just trolling for a rise.

 

[Thompsonuxb]

What?

Tatuhoo pay these fake intellects no mind -there understanding of real world applications is seriously lacking.

They have a tendency to move in groups and support each other whilst trying to ridicule a poster like yourself when genuine logic is presented to them.

Yet never seem to deliver a counter argument to substantiate what they say.

Don't be afraid to enjoy the forum......lol

1. truthiness (noun)

1 : "truth that comes from the gut, not books" (Stephen Colbert, Comedy Central's "The Colbert Report," October 2005)

?

2 : "the quality of preferring concepts or facts one wishes to be true, rather than concepts or facts known to be true" (American Dialect Society, January 2006)

http://thecolbertreport.cc.com/videos/63ite2/the-word---truthiness

 

[Thompsonuxb]

C'mon fellas Tatuhoo is just sharing his experience.

He actually high lights that it did not work with every amp he tries it with.

No gospel being laid down or world changing speeches.

Some of you genuinely need to wind it in you're spoiling the forum.