Question for Matthewpiano (and others)

Ernie

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My search for the perfect system has made me realise that I can not afford what I want right now. And while I am happy to wait for 2 or 3 years to be able to buy a system that I will live with for many years, my current little Denon m37 has died. So I am going to go out one last time to audition and listen to the following

1) pioneer a30 + pd30

2) marantz cr610

now I know Matthew has experience with both these and would love to know what you think. I know both offer different functions, but down to sound quality alone how do the 2 set ups differ? I would love the Zensor 3's to go with either set up but they will be very close to rear wall, so was thinking Wharfedale 121. How do both these speaker perform?

I dont want want massive volume when playing, at times it may be pushed hard but mainly volumes that allow for conversations to take place also. The room is approx 12ft square and we listen to all genre of music from dance to orchestra.

regards
 

Ernie

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matt49 said:
Ernie said:
The room is approx 12ft square and we listen to all genre of music from dance to orchestra.

Hopefully that's 12m square. :)

Matt

lol! I guess that would make it about the size of the downstairs loo. It's 12ft x 12ft or maybe a little over. So I will try that one again. It's about 12 ft x 12ft (144 ft square).
 

pauln

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I believe Ernie was right the first time, 12 ft square is usually taken as meaning 12' x 12' or 144 square feet whereas 12 square ft is 4' x 3'. It depends on the order of the "square" and the "foot". I'm sure we all knew what he meant though.
 

Ernie

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pauln said:
I believe Ernie was right the first time, 12 ft square is usually taken as meaning 12' x 12' or 144 square feet whereas 12 square ft is 4' x 3'. It depends on the order of the "square" and the "foot". I'm sure we all knew what he meant though.

yes, thanks paul. I though that to be the case.

So, back on topic, any comments re my question folks?
 

chebby

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Why not save a bit more towards the 'perfect system' and replace the DM37 with the latest DM39DAB...

http://www.richersounds.com/product/mini-hi-fi/denon/dm39/deno-dm39-blk

... at £185 that's quite a bit to 'bank' towards your savings.

Or - whilst there are still a few around - save a couple of hundred quid and get the M-CR603 (instead of the 610)...

http://www.richersounds.com/product/mini-hi-fi/marantz/mcr603/mara-mcr603-blk

Use whatever speakers you were already using - before the DM37 broke - and that's even more £s in the pot.
 

Ernie

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matthewpiano said:
Not easy that one!

When you refer to your dream system do you know what that is going to be? It may well have some influence on what I suggest to you.

Thanks Matthew. Well I have listened to a few systems lately and was bowled over by the Linn Snaeky DSM and the Linn Majik 140 speakers. But to be honest it didn't have enough connectivity and I would probably like to have some sort of cdp as well. But the sound it produced was the best we had heard and could have listened to it all day.

My current plans is to get a budget set up as listed above that will offer an improvement over my Denon, which I have played using Tannoy F1 and Wharfedale 9.1
 

Ernie

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chebby said:
Why not save a bit more towards the 'perfect system' and replace the DM37 with the latest DM39DAB...

http://www.richersounds.com/product/mini-hi-fi/denon/dm39/deno-dm39-blk

... at £185 that's quite a bit to 'bank' towards your savings.

Or - whilst there are still a few around - save a couple of hundred quid and get the M-CR603 (instead of the 610)...

http://www.richersounds.com/product/mini-hi-fi/marantz/mcr603/mara-mcr603-blk

Use whatever speakers you were already using - before the DM37 broke - and that's even more £s in the pot.

thanks chebby. How do you find the cr603? And have you heard the 610 in comparison?
 

DIB

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Regarding the M-CR603. On the latest Richer Sounds mailshot they are flogging off "Open Box" units for £199. Just checked all Manchester branches and they each have one for sale at this price. If it's just a temporary solution you are after then that looks like a great deal to me.

.
 

stavvy

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I just purchased the pioneer PD30s this week. Havent had a chance to set it up yet but I'm afraid I'm hooking it up to my Onkyo receiver until I have saved up enough for the A30 or possibly A50. So cant report exactly how that setup will sound but im hoping to see an improvement over the 18 year old pioneer cd player it is replacing. :)
 

matthewpiano

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Ernie said:
matthewpiano said:
Not easy that one!

When you refer to your dream system do you know what that is going to be? It may well have some influence on what I suggest to you.

Thanks Matthew. Well I have listened to a few systems lately and was bowled over by the Linn Snaeky DSM and the Linn Majik 140 speakers. But to be honest it didn't have enough connectivity and I would probably like to have some sort of cdp as well. But the sound it produced was the best we had heard and could have listened to it all day.

My current plans is to get a budget set up as listed above that will offer an improvement over my Denon, which I have played using Tannoy F1 and Wharfedale 9.1

I think you have to at least have some sort of medium term strategy in mind.

My suggestion would be to stick with the Wharfedale Diamond 9.1s. They are as good as pretty much any of the current budget speaker brigade and more natural sounding than most of them. You aren't going to improve much by changing to Diamond 121s, MA BX2s or similar and there is little point in spending the extra cash on a holding solution. I will be using my 9.1s with my new amp and CD player until I can afford to buy the Audio Note speakers.

The Marantz 610 works very well with the 9.1s. I've got this very combination playing away quite happily as I type and it makes a very enjoyable sound. It is quite a smooth sound overall but there is plenty of detail and I'm sure you would find it a step up from your existing Denon. With this as a staging post you could then take more time trying to find something which enthuses you as much as the Linn set-up but with the connectivity you require. You could then start by upgrading the speakers and build the new system from there.

The Pioneer kit is very good, but I'm not convinced that you really gain enough in sound quality and you certainly don't get the same flexibility. The other thing I would say is if you go down this route try to source the Pioneers cheaply as a package or even 2nd hand. That way you will minimise your losses as you move on. The Pioneers' used value suffers as a result of them not being as popular as stalwarts like the Marantz 600x series components. The amps change hands on Ebay for as little as £80-£100.

It does all depend how quickly you think you will be able to get the funds together for your dream system. If you can do it within a few months you may well be wise to take Chebby's advice and consider a D-M39 to tide you over.
 

chebby

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Ernie said:
thanks chebby. How do you find the cr603? And have you heard the 610 in comparison?

I love the M-CR603. Luckily - for my purposes - I don't need the wi-fi / gapless / 24 bit 192 kHz improvements that the M-CR610 brought with it.

I use ethernet and AirPlay so I have no problems with gapless because iTunes and AirPlay supports it (and I have no interest in downloads or rips beyond CD/Apple Lossless quality.)

I don't like the all-plastic casing (or the new look) of the M-CR610 either, so I won't be doing any comparisons.

If you like the looks of the M-CR610, or don't mind all the plastic, or need wi-fi, or need gapless playback from a NAS (for instance), or need 24/192 'HD' capabilities then the M-CR610 will be worth the extra £200 (based on Richer Sounds prices for both models earlier today).

The reasons I suggested the M-CR603 (or DM39DAB) were... (a) you didn't already have any the stuff listed above so probably don't need it now ... (b) to save you money towards your next system.
 

Blackdawn

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I would suggest looking for second hand budget amps/speakers on the net. If you are happy with the speakers you already have - then stick with them. An all in one is also a good way to go.

If you want new ones or different speakers as a stop gap - speakers are the most important item IMO.. Do you have stands already or do you want floorstanders?

The Pioneer amp is v good. no idea about the CD player or though I did hear it with the amp initially - sounded good.
 

slice

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matthewpiano said:
Ernie said:
matthewpiano said:
Not easy that one!

When you refer to your dream system do you know what that is going to be? It may well have some influence on what I suggest to you.

Thanks Matthew. Well I have listened to a few systems lately and was bowled over by the Linn Snaeky DSM and the Linn Majik 140 speakers. But to be honest it didn't have enough connectivity and I would probably like to have some sort of cdp as well. But the sound it produced was the best we had heard and could have listened to it all day.

My current plans is to get a budget set up as listed above that will offer an improvement over my Denon, which I have played using Tannoy F1 and Wharfedale 9.1

I think you have to at least have some sort of medium term strategy in mind.

My suggestion would be to stick with the Wharfedale Diamond 9.1s. They are as good as pretty much any of the current budget speaker brigade and more natural sounding than most of them. You aren't going to improve much by changing to Diamond 121s, MA BX2s or similar and there is little point in spending the extra cash on a holding solution. I will be using my 9.1s with my new amp and CD player until I can afford to buy the Audio Note speakers.

The Marantz 610 works very well with the 9.1s. I've got this very combination playing away quite happily as I type and it makes a very enjoyable sound. It is quite a smooth sound overall but there is plenty of detail and I'm sure you would find it a step up from your existing Denon. With this as a staging post you could then take more time trying to find something which enthuses you as much as the Linn set-up but with the connectivity you require. You could then start by upgrading the speakers and build the new system from there.

The Pioneer kit is very good, but I'm not convinced that you really gain enough in sound quality and you certainly don't get the same flexibility. The other thing I would say is if you go down this route try to source the Pioneers cheaply as a package or even 2nd hand. That way you will minimise your losses as you move on. The Pioneers' used value suffers as a result of them not being as popular as stalwarts like the Marantz 600x series components. The amps change hands on Ebay for as little as £80-£100.

It does all depend how quickly you think you will be able to get the funds together for your dream system. If you can do it within a few months you may well be wise to take Chebby's advice and consider a D-M39 to tide you over.

Hello MatthewPiano

I cuurently use 9.1s off a marantz pm6002. Although I'm not in any rush, I was vaguely thinking of upgrading speakers at some point in the future, and had been looking at good reviews for the BX2's, which like the 9.1s are front ported(my speakers need to be placed near to walls). Interesting that you feel the BX2s wouldn't be much of an improvement. Does this mean I would need to go up in price a lot more if I wanted a significant improvement? Sorry to hijack the thread to ask this question!
 

matthewpiano

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The BX2s are different to the 9.1s. They are more explicitly detailed and more brightly lit with a more initially impressive spaciousness to the sound. However, IMO, they don't communicate the essence of the music as well and whereas the 9.1s are good at low to medium volumes, the BX2s need a bit of power up them to sound their best. Very technically competent in a hi-fi sort of way but I found them a touch clinical and I would rather have the Wharfedales. You might feel differently so do listen to them. My advice to the OP of this thread is as much based on the fact that he has a very good pair of budget speakers and with bigger things in his sights I don't see the point of changing them in a sideways move. He may as well save the money towards his dream system.
 

slice

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Thanks for your reply. I suppose I sometimes feel I would like a bit more detail from the 9.1s, but in fairness I enjoy the feeling of "wholeness" from the 9.1s (I listen to mainly classical music), so maybe I can't have it both ways. I'm quite interested that the BX2s need more driving, as on paper I think the BX2s were more sensitive, and not being in a detatched house I don't go mad on the volume. Thanks for answering so quickly-just one more issue- I'm not ultra technically minded, but tend to look at the front ported issue as important as the speakers need to to be placed quite near the wall- am I wrong in this, do in fact rear ported speakers vary in their sensitivity to this issue? No more thread hijack after this post!

Thanks
 

matthewpiano

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slice said:
Thanks for your reply. I suppose I sometimes feel I would like a bit more detail from the 9.1s, but in fairness I enjoy the feeling of "wholeness" from the 9.1s (I listen to mainly classical music), so maybe I can't have it both ways. I'm quite interested that the BX2s need more driving, as on paper I think the BX2s were more sensitive, and not being in a detatched house I don't go mad on the volume. Thanks for answering so quickly-just one more issue- I'm not ultra technically minded, but tend to look at the front ported issue as important as the speakers need to to be placed quite near the wall- am I wrong in this, do in fact rear ported speakers vary in their sensitivity to this issue? No more thread hijack after this post!

Thanks

What sort of distance from the back wall are we talking about?
 

slice

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matthewpiano said:
slice said:
Thanks for your reply. I suppose I sometimes feel I would like a bit more detail from the 9.1s, but in fairness I enjoy the feeling of "wholeness" from the 9.1s (I listen to mainly classical music), so maybe I can't have it both ways. I'm quite interested that the BX2s need more driving, as on paper I think the BX2s were more sensitive, and not being in a detatched house I don't go mad on the volume. Thanks for answering so quickly-just one more issue- I'm not ultra technically minded, but tend to look at the front ported issue as important as the speakers need to to be placed quite near the wall- am I wrong in this, do in fact rear ported speakers vary in their sensitivity to this issue? No more thread hijack after this post!

Thanks

What sort of distance from the back wall are we talking about?

The room is a sort of off beat rectangle of approx 13ft by 14ft.. It's hard to explain because the room is ergonomically difficult regarding placement of desks, tvs etc. At the moment onespeaker is 2 feet from the back wall and well away from a side wall, but only 6 inches in front of a computer desk which is between the back wall and the speaker, and turned in 30 degrees towards the centre of the room The other is 2ft 6in from the back wall but only 9in from a side wall and turned into to face the room by 30 degrees. If you add to that my usual listening position, they make a triangle with lengths 8 feet between the speakers and 7 feet between each speaker and the listening position.
 

Ernie

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matthewpiano said:
Ernie said:
matthewpiano said:
Not easy that one!

When you refer to your dream system do you know what that is going to be? It may well have some influence on what I suggest to you.

Thanks Matthew. Well I have listened to a few systems lately and was bowled over by the Linn Snaeky DSM and the Linn Majik 140 speakers. But to be honest it didn't have enough connectivity and I would probably like to have some sort of cdp as well. But the sound it produced was the best we had heard and could have listened to it all day.

My current plans is to get a budget set up as listed above that will offer an improvement over my Denon, which I have played using Tannoy F1 and Wharfedale 9.1

I think you have to at least have some sort of medium term strategy in mind.

My suggestion would be to stick with the Wharfedale Diamond 9.1s. They are as good as pretty much any of the current budget speaker brigade and more natural sounding than most of them. You aren't going to improve much by changing to Diamond 121s, MA BX2s or similar and there is little point in spending the extra cash on a holding solution. I will be using my 9.1s with my new amp and CD player until I can afford to buy the Audio Note speakers.

The Marantz 610 works very well with the 9.1s. I've got this very combination playing away quite happily as I type and it makes a very enjoyable sound. It is quite a smooth sound overall but there is plenty of detail and I'm sure you would find it a step up from your existing Denon. With this as a staging post you could then take more time trying to find something which enthuses you as much as the Linn set-up but with the connectivity you require. You could then start by upgrading the speakers and build the new system from there.

The Pioneer kit is very good, but I'm not convinced that you really gain enough in sound quality and you certainly don't get the same flexibility. The other thing I would say is if you go down this route try to source the Pioneers cheaply as a package or even 2nd hand. That way you will minimise your losses as you move on. The Pioneers' used value suffers as a result of them not being as popular as stalwarts like the Marantz 600x series components. The amps change hands on Ebay for as little as £80-£100.

It does all depend how quickly you think you will be able to get the funds together for your dream system. If you can do it within a few months you may well be wise to take Chebby's advice and consider a D-M39 to tide you over.

thanks matthewpiano. It's going to be the best part of 2 to 3 years before I get the money to buy the system I really want. In the mean time I would like something that will give me a nice improvement over the Denon m37. I think I will take your advice and keep my current speakers and look at the Matantz cr610 and 603. The Pioneer P1 dab is an interesting prospect also as what hifi gave it 5 stars and said it was a big improvement over the Denon m39. Does anyone have any experience with this system?
 

matthewpiano

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slice said:
matthewpiano said:
slice said:
Thanks for your reply. I suppose I sometimes feel I would like a bit more detail from the 9.1s, but in fairness I enjoy the feeling of "wholeness" from the 9.1s (I listen to mainly classical music), so maybe I can't have it both ways. I'm quite interested that the BX2s need more driving, as on paper I think the BX2s were more sensitive, and not being in a detatched house I don't go mad on the volume. Thanks for answering so quickly-just one more issue- I'm not ultra technically minded, but tend to look at the front ported issue as important as the speakers need to to be placed quite near the wall- am I wrong in this, do in fact rear ported speakers vary in their sensitivity to this issue? No more thread hijack after this post!

Thanks

What sort of distance from the back wall are we talking about?

The room is a sort of off beat rectangle of approx 13ft by 14ft.. It's hard to explain because the room is ergonomically difficult regarding placement of desks, tvs etc. At the moment onespeaker is 2 feet from the back wall and well away from a side wall, but only 6 inches in front of a computer desk which is between the back wall and the speaker, and turned in 30 degrees towards the centre of the room The other is 2ft 6in from the back wall but only 9in from a side wall and turned into to face the room by 30 degrees. If you add to that my usual listening position, they make a triangle with lengths 8 feet between the speakers and 7 feet between each speaker and the listening position.

I think front-ported is probably best in that situation but I would be cautious about the BX2s as I found them very sensitive to positioning.

I think the 'wholeness' you describe as a quality of the Wharfedales is rare with budget speakers. I was listening to Bernard Haitink's recording of Shostakovich 5 tonight on the Marantz and Wharfedales and it hung the whole thing together extremely well - enough so that I was simply enjoying the music and Shostakovich's skilful exploitation of the orchestral colours. They are so talented and I haven't heard another budget speaker that achieves the seamless integration that the Diamond 9.1s offer. I'm currently saving up for a pair of Audio Note AX-2s, but there aren't many speakers between these two that I could live with long term. I've found too many speakers to be tiring over long listening sessions. For this reason things like B&W 685s, KEF Q300s, and Monitor Audio BX2s just haven't lasted long-term with me.

Of course, the 9.1s aren't perfect and speakers like the Audio Notes, or the Sonus Faber Venere 1.5s, really do show them a clean heel in terms of musical tangibility and involvement, but in the sub £500 market I do think they have certain qualities that are hard to beat.
 

Ernie

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Matthew I notice from past posts on this forum that you have also owned Denon seperates. My other half does not like the look of the Matantz all in one so will unfortunately have to rule that out. I am therefore looking medium term at purchasing a budget amp/cd. It's most likely going to be between thE pioneer a30 pd30 and Denon 720 combo. I am just interested in your views on these seperates to partner the Wharfedale speakers.

many thanks.
 

matthewpiano

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Ernie said:
Matthew I notice from past posts on this forum that you have also owned Denon seperates. My other half does not like the look of the Matantz all in one so will unfortunately have to rule that out. I am therefore looking medium term at purchasing a budget amp/cd. It's most likely going to be between thE pioneer a30 pd30 and Denon 720 combo. I am just interested in your views on these seperates to partner the Wharfedale speakers.

many thanks.

The Denon seperates are very good for the money. As a combination the PMA and DCD 720AE works very well, and my 12 months with the Denon amp was the longest I've kept an amp for some time. It's sound is a little less cleanly etched than the Pioneer but very persuasive and the touch of warmth does suit the Diamonds. At current prices I really don't think you can go wrong with the 720s and they do look extremely good together. I think my path would have been much cleaner if I'd stuck with the Denons and upgraded to the planned Consonance/Exposure/Audio Note system piece by piece from there. I have enjoyed the MCR610, and I'd say it is on the whole as good as the Denons, but it was a sideways move at the end of the day, purchased due to the attraction of the facilities. The Pioneer between them was also a sideways move, although it did pair better with the Dali Zensor 3s than the Denons.

I'm not sure how helpful that is. I hope it is of some use!
 

manicm

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matthewpiano said:
The BX2s are different to the 9.1s. They are more explicitly detailed and more brightly lit with a more initially impressive spaciousness to the sound. However, IMO, they don't communicate the essence of the music as well and whereas the 9.1s are good at low to medium volumes, the BX2s need a bit of power up them to sound their best. Very technically competent in a hi-fi sort of way but I found them a touch clinical

I'm just repeating this because it's so uncanny - my exact experience of the BX2!
 

manicm

Well-known member
slice said:
Thanks for your reply. I suppose I sometimes feel I would like a bit more detail from the 9.1s, but in fairness I enjoy the feeling of "wholeness" from the 9.1s (I listen to mainly classical music), so maybe I can't have it both ways. I'm quite interested that the BX2s need more driving, as on paper I think the BX2s were more sensitive, and not being in a detatched house I don't go mad on the volume. Thanks for answering so quickly-just one more issue- I'm not ultra technically minded, but tend to look at the front ported issue as important as the speakers need to to be placed quite near the wall- am I wrong in this, do in fact rear ported speakers vary in their sensitivity to this issue? No more thread hijack after this post!

Thanks

Don't get us wrong - the BX2s are sensitive, they do go loud, but they simply sound better at higher volumes - but this may be mitigated by more powerful amplification - my Solo Mini and the Marantz 610 are lower-powered devices. The BX2s just love the volume up north.
 

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