Qn for JoelSim (or others) re biamping Arcam

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Hi there,

I thought JoelSim might be the one to direct this question to...but any other input welcome.

I have an Arcam A70 and Quad 22L2 speakers. While I like the match of the Arcam & Quad, I feel that I need a bit more power, so I was thinking of getting a second hand Arcam power amp & biamping (i'm confined to second hand for the time being if I want to stay in the marital good books (and by the way I'm not a bloke!). I'm in OZ and Arcam power amps come up quite infrequently on ebay, I had initially been thinking of the P90, but there is a P75 power amp which has come up and looks to be in excellent condition. Should I wait for a higher powered power amp do you think or would the P75 give me some improvements in sound and/or power?
 

JoelSim

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jrwight:
Hi there,

I thought JoelSim might be the one to direct this question to...but any other input welcome.

I have an Arcam A70 and Quad 22L2 speakers. While I like the match of the Arcam & Quad, I feel that I need a bit more power, so I was thinking of getting a second hand Arcam power amp & biamping (i'm confined to second hand for the time being if I want to stay in the marital good books (and by the way I'm not a bloke!). I'm in OZ and Arcam power amps come up quite infrequently on ebay, I had initially been thinking of the P90, but there is a P75 power amp which has come up and looks to be in excellent condition. Should I wait for a higher powered power amp do you think or would the P75 give me some improvements in sound and/or power?ÿ

ÿ

I don't think it will give more power, but it will give better definition and detail and a real all-round sound. If you think it will go much louder then that's not what it will do. It will in my opinion be a substantial improvement on what you have, whichever of those you get.

ÿ
 
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Anonymous

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Thanks for that Joel. I think I'll set myself a reasonable limit for the P75 - if I get it well and good, if not I'll wait for a P90. Cheers JW
 
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Anonymous

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Joel,

Although I said Arcam gear is reaonsably rare on ebay in Oz, I've just been made a liar. Noticed an Alpha 10 integrated amp in my city - what do you think about the alpha 10 compared to the Divas, in particular the A70 I have.

JW
 

d_a_n1979

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Just seen this.

In agreement with Joel; the P90 would give you a better soundstage over all and more control over the bass etc but it wont offer you any more power.

Also; IMO the Arcam DiVA A70, like its bigger brother the A90 had bags of power but the soundstage was a little weak and uncontroled.

Having owned the Arcam Alpha 9 amps, Alpha 10 amps, the A70 and A85, i'd say that the Alpha 10 integrated would be much better than the DiVa A70.

The Arcam Alpha 10 integrated is a superb amp, bagos of power but with a sublime soundstage and superb bass/midrange.
 

JoelSim

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The 10 is a very good player, and will be better than the A70. However, it all depends on whether you want a very old looking piece of kit.

I personally prefer biamping as I think it benefits sound hugely.
 
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Anonymous

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I tell myself that it is just the sound I"m after and looks don't matter but that Alpha 10 is just so....well...UGLY!
 
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Anonymous

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Please explain to me why using two amplifiers to drive a two way pair of speakers will make any difference at all. The tweeter will do a maximum of 5% of the work, which means that the bass amp will still have to do 95%!

It's not worth the bother or expense, one Arcam amplifier will have more than enough current for the job. If you want better sound buy more Watts because they do make a difference.

We've spent years testing all this sort of thing, so speak with knowledge of the subject.

Ash
 

JoelSim

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With all due respect Ashley I've heard the difference with my own ears, and not a subtle difference either. I don't know the physics of it, but it works for me. In the same way that cables change sound significantly.

ÿ
 

JoelSim

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Ashley James:Please explain to me why using two amplifiers to drive a two way pair of speakers will make any difference at all. The tweeter will do a maximum of 5% of the work, which means that the bass amp will still have to do 95%!It's not worth the bother or expense, one Arcam amplifier will have more than enough current for the job. If you want better sound buy more Watts because they do make a difference.We've spent years testing all this sort of thing, so speak with knowledge of the subject.Ash

I demo'd a pair of Neutron IVs a couple of years' back, and the only reason I didn't buy them was because I couldn't biamp them. Got some ProAcs instead.

ÿ
 

Lost Angeles

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Ashley James:Please explain to me why using two amplifiers to drive a two way pair of speakers will make any difference at all. The tweeter will do a maximum of 5% of the work, which means that the bass amp will still have to do 95%! It's not worth the bother or expense, one Arcam amplifier will have more than enough current for the job. If you want better sound buy more Watts because they do make a difference. We've spent years testing all this sort of thing, so speak with knowledge of the subject. Ash

Roksan recommend Bi-amping. They must have spent years testing as well.
 

matengawhat

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i think it makes a difference - also do arcam, roksan, cyrus - shall i go on? have owned alpha 8 with 8p and a roksan kandy with kandy power amp also by ashley own argument he must agree it 5% better!!!! Betters better!
 
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Anonymous

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I think I've heard an improvement with it, but when I was in that situation before ended up selling the original amp, and used the power amp budget too in order to buy one much better amp. that was a certain improvement.
 
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Anonymous

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Eddie Pound:I think I've heard an improvement with it, but when I was in that situation before ended up selling the original amp, and used the power amp budget too in order to buy one much better amp. that was a certain improvement.

There is no improvement and it would be as easy to prove that as it would be to show how easily you and your ears are fooled.

Here's one experiment that shows how our perceptions override our judgement:

Wine price test shows marketing at work in brain

ÿ
Researchers in California have shown that you can increase a person's enjoyment of wine by just sticking a higher price on it.

In a demonstration of the power of marketing, researchers in California showed you can increase a person's enjoyment of wine by just sticking a higher price on it, according to a study released Monday.

Antonio Rangel, associate professor of economics at the California Institute of Technology, led a team to test how marketing shapes consumers' perceptions and whether it also enhances their enjoyment of a product.ÿ

They asked 21 volunteers to sample five different bottles of Cabernet Sauvignon and rate their taste preferences. The taste test was run 15 times, with the wines presented in random order.ÿ

The taste test was blind except for information on the price of the wine. Without telling the volunteers, the researchers presented two of the wines twice, once with the true price tag, and again with a fake one.ÿ

They also passed off a 90 dollar bottle of Cabernet Sauvignon as a 10 dollar bottle, and presented a five dollar bottle as one worth 45 dollars.ÿ

Aside from collecting the test subjects' impressions of the wines, the researchers scanned their brains to monitor the neural activity in the medial orbitofrontal cortex -- an area of the brain believed to encode pleasure related to taste, odors and music.ÿ

The study found that inflating the price of a bottle of wine enhanced a person's experience of drinking it, as shown by the neural activity.ÿ

The volunteers consistently gave higher ratings to the more "expensive" wines.ÿ

Brain scans also showed greater neural activity in the pleasure center when they were sampling those "pricey" wines, indicating that the increased pleasure they reported was a real effect in the brain.ÿ

"It's a common belief among scientists and economists that the quality of the experience depends on the properties of the product and the state of the consumer; for example, if a consumer is thirsty or not," said Rangel.ÿ

"But what this study shows is that the brain's rewards center takes into account subjective beliefs about the quality of the experience.ÿ

"If you believe that the experience is better, even though it's the same wine, the rewards center of the brain encodes it as feeling better."ÿ

In other words, "people's beliefs about the quality of a wine affect how well it tastes for the brain," he concluded.ÿ

The study appears in the Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences.ÿ

¸ 2008
 

JoelSim

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Ashley James:Eddie Pound:I think I've heard an improvement with it, but when I was in that situation before ended up selling the original amp, and used the power amp budget too in order to buy one much better amp. that was a certain improvement.
There is no improvement and it would be as easy to prove that as it would be to show how easily you and your ears are fooled.Here's one experiment that shows how our perceptions override our judgement:Wine price test shows marketing at work in brainÿResearchers in California have shown that you can increase a person's enjoyment of wine by just sticking a higher price on it.In a demonstration of the power of marketing, researchers in California showed you can increase a person's enjoyment of wine by just sticking a higher price on it, according to a study released Monday.Antonio Rangel, associate professor of economics at the California Institute of Technology, led a team to test how marketing shapes consumers' perceptions and whether it also enhances their enjoyment of a product.ÿThey asked 21 volunteers to sample five different bottles of Cabernet Sauvignon and rate their taste preferences. The taste test was run 15 times, with the wines presented in random order.ÿThe taste test was blind except for information on the price of the wine. Without telling the volunteers, the researchers presented two of the wines twice, once with the true price tag, and again with a fake one.ÿThey also passed off a 90 dollar bottle of Cabernet Sauvignon as a 10 dollar bottle, and presented a five dollar bottle as one worth 45 dollars.ÿAside from collecting the test subjects' impressions of the wines, the researchers scanned their brains to monitor the neural activity in the medial orbitofrontal cortex -- an area of the brain believed to encode pleasure related to taste, odors and music.ÿThe study found that inflating the price of a bottle of wine enhanced a person's experience of drinking it, as shown by the neural activity.ÿThe volunteers consistently gave higher ratings to the more "expensive" wines.ÿBrain scans also showed greater neural activity in the pleasure center when they were sampling those "pricey" wines, indicating that the increased pleasure they reported was a real effect in the brain.ÿ"It's a common belief among scientists and economists that the quality of the experience depends on the properties of the product and the state of the consumer; for example, if a consumer is thirsty or not," said Rangel.ÿ"But what this study shows is that the brain's rewards center takes into account subjective beliefs about the quality of the experience.ÿ"If you believe that the experience is better, even though it's the same wine, the rewards center of the brain encodes it as feeling better."ÿIn other words, "people's beliefs about the quality of a wine affect how well it tastes for the brain," he concluded.ÿThe study appears in the Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences.ÿ¸ 2008

I don't doubt that for a minute Ashley, although I suspect that it would be much harder to do with people who know their wines. Marketing can be very very powerful indeed, I mean Nestle even promote their ethical credentials on one of their coffees, quietly ignoring the other 742 that they aren't ethical on, and yet people still buy the ethical one.

ÿ
 

JoelSim

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Ashley James:Eddie Pound:I think I've heard an improvement with it, but when I was in that situation before ended up selling the original amp, and used the power amp budget too in order to buy one much better amp. that was a certain improvement.
There is no improvement and it would be as easy to prove that as it would be to show how easily you and your ears are fooled.Here's one experiment that shows how our perceptions override our judgement:Wine price test shows marketing at work in brainÿResearchers in California have shown that you can increase a person's enjoyment of wine by just sticking a higher price on it.In a demonstration of the power of marketing, researchers in California showed you can increase a person's enjoyment of wine by just sticking a higher price on it, according to a study released Monday.Antonio Rangel, associate professor of economics at the California Institute of Technology, led a team to test how marketing shapes consumers' perceptions and whether it also enhances their enjoyment of a product.ÿThey asked 21 volunteers to sample five different bottles of Cabernet Sauvignon and rate their taste preferences. The taste test was run 15 times, with the wines presented in random order.ÿThe taste test was blind except for information on the price of the wine. Without telling the volunteers, the researchers presented two of the wines twice, once with the true price tag, and again with a fake one.ÿThey also passed off a 90 dollar bottle of Cabernet Sauvignon as a 10 dollar bottle, and presented a five dollar bottle as one worth 45 dollars.ÿAside from collecting the test subjects' impressions of the wines, the researchers scanned their brains to monitor the neural activity in the medial orbitofrontal cortex -- an area of the brain believed to encode pleasure related to taste, odors and music.ÿThe study found that inflating the price of a bottle of wine enhanced a person's experience of drinking it, as shown by the neural activity.ÿThe volunteers consistently gave higher ratings to the more "expensive" wines.ÿBrain scans also showed greater neural activity in the pleasure center when they were sampling those "pricey" wines, indicating that the increased pleasure they reported was a real effect in the brain.ÿ"It's a common belief among scientists and economists that the quality of the experience depends on the properties of the product and the state of the consumer; for example, if a consumer is thirsty or not," said Rangel.ÿ"But what this study shows is that the brain's rewards center takes into account subjective beliefs about the quality of the experience.ÿ"If you believe that the experience is better, even though it's the same wine, the rewards center of the brain encodes it as feeling better."ÿIn other words, "people's beliefs about the quality of a wine affect how well it tastes for the brain," he concluded.ÿThe study appears in the Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences.ÿ¸ 2008

I don't doubt that for a minute Ashley, although I suspect that it would be much harder to do with people who know their wines. Marketing can be very very powerful indeed, I mean Nestle even promote their ethical credentials on one of their coffees, quietly ignoring the other 742 that they aren't ethical on, and yet people still buy the ethical one.

ÿ
 

matengawhat

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part of our culture is to pretend we know what we are talking about even if we don't and the idea that the more it costs the better it is so i can easily see that by artificially inflating the price that they believe it tasted better!
 

JoelSim

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matengawhat:part of our culture is to pretend we know what we are talking about even if we don't and the idea that the more it costs the better it is so i can easily see that by artificially inflating the price that they believe it tasted better!

Carpetright would never sell anything if people knew that it wasn't actually a real 50% saving, and that it was a manufactured one just about within the laws.

ÿ
 
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Anonymous

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Just a quick update - In the end I was able to get a second hand FMJ A32 in excellent condition. I'm really happy with it. It doesn't sound recessed like the A70, it has sufficient power to drive the Quads well, and has a much bigger soundstage and better imaging. I'm thoroughly enjoying the music now, without thinking about the equipment - and when it comes down to it, I think that's a pretty good end result.

Thanks all for the help and advice.
 

crusaderlord

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I would say this but i think you made a great choice to get the FMJ A32 - i too upgraded from an A70 and gained a massive improvement.

I still would like to try the P35 power amp with mine but to be honest i am in no rush as what i have is so good i am not sure it really needs it in my room.
 

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