Q Acoustics 7.1 should i set the speaker size to large??

[Oldboy]

Hello all,

Just been watching the vids on this very site and it seems i may have set my speakers incorrectly....the how to optimise your home cinema video indicates that ALL my speakers (1010i surrounds, 1030i floorstanders, 1000i centre) should be set to large which is how the auto set up sets them, however when i approached the subject on these forums when i initially purchased the speakers i was urged to set all my speakers to small!

The WHF video now has me slightly confused...should all my speakers or indeed just the floorstanders be set to large and how would that affect the crossover settings and sub?? Any help is much appreciated as i hate the idea that i'm not getting the most from my set up [:S]

Many thanks

 

[Anonymous]

The floorstanders should be set to large, the surrounds and centre to small.

 

[John Duncan]

Whereas I'd set probably them all to large - depends on which sounds better to you...

 

[Oldboy]

Thanks for the replies guys! I'm going to try the WHF setting of all to large with a new auto set up and see how it sounds, will take a while though as my Denon amp takes forever to get it's calibration done and requires calibration from at least 6 positions! Any idea what this would do to the crossover and sub settings? I presume crossover will no longer be required but the sub would surely need a vastly different set up, no??

Many thanks again for the valuable advice, much appreciated

 

[Pistol Pete1]

Hi Oldboy.....

When I had the exact speaker set up as you, I had all set to 'small'.......and the 2 channel set up was large and full band..(Denon 2310 has that option)

I initially had the 1030i set to 60Hz and the others to 80Hz. I then changed the 1030i's to 80Hz and it all sounded a touch clearer at the front........

Setting these speakers to small just gives the sub the part it is designed to do....bumping bass....rather than asking the floorstanders to do it when they can only go down to 48Hz (from memory).......

The 2 channel was set to large and full band because I didn't allow the sub to be on when using stereo playback......

 

[Oldboy]

Pistol Pete,

Thankyou very much i remember taking your advice when i first set up the speakers but after seeing that video this morning i'm just confused as WHF state that you should only use the small setting for tiny speakers ie Cambridge Audio Minx, Boston Acoustics Soundware xs etc and that for traditional speakers the large setting should be used! It's all rather confusing and i just wish there was a recognised standard in place to avoid such confusion, my amp seems to set them as large from the auto set up aswell so i'm just wondering what is the correct setting?

 

[Pistol Pete1]

I think my other worry at the time was the amount the front cones moved when set to large for big explosive movies.....

Set them to small, and they will not have to worry about the loud explosions, thus the cones don't move as much.......instead the sub cone did, but thats what it's designed for.....

Ask any shop, and I reckon most will suggest setting to small, unlees you have the KEF Q900's or something similar.....

 

[Anonymous]

I'm with Pete on this one, let the sub and it's amp handle the low frequencies, leaving the AVR to cosentrate it's power on the mid to high range.

This usually allows the speakers to play at higher volumes with less distortion and keeps the dialogue from being muddy.

 

[John Duncan]

But there's the danger of making it weedy instead. The Qs are (by my definition) full-range speakers, not Sats, and I would want to be feeding them a full fat signal!

 

[Anonymous]

JohnDuncan:But there's the danger of making it weedy instead. The Qs are (by my definition) full-range speakers, not Sats, and I would want to be feeding them a full fat signal!

I do see where you are coming from John, but I seem to remember that they can only go do to 48Hz, which is not particularly low for a floor stander and one of the comments made of these speakers when reviewed was they did not have much bass.

I do agree with you though that he should just try it both ways, with a scene from a film he is familiar with, and decide for himself which he prefers.

 

[Oldboy]

Thanks alot guys!!

I'm going to take your advice and try both options later today....i'm going to use the opening of the Dark Knight bluray as a test disc as i'm familiar with the soundtrack, currently i have the speakers set to small so i will do a comparison with the large setting and report back later with the results. Thankyou to you all for taking the time out to help me, it's much appreciated!

 

[davejberry]

i've tried both ways with my bookshelf KEFs. it sounds so much better feeding them full range, letting the sub 'fill in' the lower frequencies below 80hz or so and adding the LFE effects sound when needed. it just sounds a bit dis-jointed the other way - by the way, my sony agrees, the auto setup says to set them all to large.

 

[Anonymous]

Oldboy and anyone else with this set up or similar.

Don't be mislead or confused. Do not set these speakers to large. Setting the speakers to "Small" does not mean that you don't have bigish speakers capable of some bass. But in no way are those speakers capable of the type of bass you will see in some film soundtracks and games. Those speakers will drop off somewhere between 60 and 70 hz. the bass and lfe on film soundtracks and games will go down to 40hz and may even go right down to 20-30hz for those deep rumbling effects in those big budget special effects films.

Setting the speakers to "small" simply means that the amp gives you control of it's internal crossover between your speakers and the sub.

You should then set the crossover at the lowest point you can before the +- 3 decibel drop off of your speakers. Check the manufacturers specs .

In this way you will be utilising most of the range of your speakers and making sure you get all your bass properly delivered by the sub.

So in this case those q acoustics will drop off at around 70 hz so you should be setting the amp crossover at 75 80 hz. To do this you have to set the speakers to "small" in your amp.

The main thing after this is to set the VOLUME of the sub on the sub. Most amps will not do this. Many people set it too high to "hear it". What you need to do is approach thinking like a sound engineer.

Get some well produced commercial techno you are familiar with. Something with a nice fat kick drum. The nature of techno means that is wont have too much going on below 60 hz. (because in the clubs at loud volumes very low sub bass at the same time as kick beats causes all sorts of problems.) Also the transition of the slap to punch to thud to boom of that bass kick drum is happening around the point of your 70 80 hz crossover. So if dont get the volume of the sub right your will totally loose the dynamics of that kick drum so it is something that you can really listen for.

Now play the techno at medium volume in unprocessed stereo only. (do not use stereo to multi channel or any other special processing) and listen to the bass drum. Then while the music is playing switch between "large" and "small"

switch to large then listen then switch to small (so the sub kicks in) and if you all of a sudden get a booming kick bass with a loss of punch in the bass drum then the sub volume is set too high. If the bass drum turns into a slap when you set to small then the sub volume is too low.

Basically, in this scenario, (stereo techno with bookshelves that go down to 60-70 hz) you should not hear too much difference between large and small setting. There should be a slight bass extension and warmness when you set to small with the 70-80hz xover but it should not be a drastic change as you just replacing a bit of the bottom end of your bookshelves. and the sub will add a little at its end but it should allmost be transparent. You should not hear the sub "booming"

If you can achieve this very delicate balance with the techno you will find that other music and the film soundtracks sound awesome.

 

[Anonymous]

what if you dont have a sub??

set the floorstanders to large even if they only go down to 48hz

as my current set up i have floorstanders set to large

centre set to small

surrounds set to small

crossover set to 50hz

anything i should change

 

[Oldboy]

pjf500:
Oldboy and anyone else with this set up or similar.

Don't be mislead or confused. Do not set these speakers to large. Setting the speakers to "Small" does not mean that you don't have bigish speakers capable of some bass. But in no way are those speakers capable of the type of bass you will see in some film soundtracks and games. Those speakers will drop off somewhere between 60 and 70 hz. the bass and lfe on film soundtracks and games will go down to 40hz and may even go right down to 20-30hz for those deep rumbling effects in those big budget special effects films.

Setting the speakers to "small" simply means that the amp gives you control of it's internal crossover between your speakers and the sub.

You should then set the crossover at the lowest point you can before the +- 3 decibel drop off of your speakers. Check the manufacturers specs .

In this way you will be utilising most of the range of your speakers and making sure you get all your bass properly delivered by the sub.

So in this case those q acoustics will drop off at around 70 hz so you should be setting the amp crossover at 75 80 hz. To do this you have to set the speakers to "small" in your amp.

The main thing after this is to set the VOLUME of the sub on the sub. Most amps will not do this. Many people set it too high to "hear it". What you need to do is approach thinking like a sound engineer.

Get some well produced commercial techno you are familiar with. Something with a nice fat kick drum. The nature of techno means that is wont have too much going on below 60 hz. (because in the clubs at loud volumes very low sub bass at the same time as kick beats causes all sorts of problems.) Also the transition of the slap to punch to thud to boom of that bass kick drum is happening around the point of your 70 80 hz crossover. So if dont get the volume of the sub right your will totally loose the dynamics of that kick drum so it is something that you can really listen for.

Now play the techno at medium volume in unprocessed stereo only. (do not use stereo to multi channel or any other special processing) and listen to the bass drum. Then while the music is playing switch between "large" and "small"

switch to large then listen then switch to small (so the sub kicks in) and if you all of a sudden get a booming kick bass with a loss of punch in the bass drum then the sub volume is set too high. If the bass drum turns into a slap when you set to small then the sub volume is too low.

Basically, in this scenario, (stereo techno with bookshelves that go down to 60-70 hz) you should not hear too much difference between large and small setting. There should be a slight bass extension and warmness when you set to small with the 70-80hz xover but it should not be a drastic change as you just replacing a bit of the bottom end of your bookshelves. and the sub will add a little at its end but it should allmost be transparent. You should not hear the sub "booming"

If you can achieve this very delicate balance with the techno you will find that other music and the film soundtracks sound awesome.

pjf500,

First of all many thanks for the brilliant reply, much appreciated! One problem is that i haven't listened to or bought any techno since the 90's when i was still in my youth but i will try the same approach with some Chemical Brothers or similar and see how it goes.

I should say now that due to time constraints i have not been able to mess around with my settings too much as it's not been until late at night that i've had the time and my neighbours wouldn't appreciate the noise late at night BUT i have today to tinker a little so i'm going to try both settings later today to see what the differences are.

I was always of the opinion that my speakers should be set to small just due to the shortcomings of both the floorstanders and the surrounds and their relative lack of bass but it seems this is just a matter of opinion as everyone seems to have a different opinion and it just becomes confusing very quickly! The only way to find out is if i do another set up today focused towards the 'large' setting and see if it sounds better or worse and that is exactly what i intend to do with my day today.

I will take all your recomendations into account when setting up again today but it sounds like my 'small' setting is about right as the crossover is set to 80db and the sub doeasn't boom into life when switching from large to small in stereo, i was very careful with the sub level when i set it up and it took an age to get right! I've stored the small setting in my amp now and am going to do another set up shortly....takes a while though as my mic needs to be in 6 different positions for each calibration and it took over an hour last time just to go through the auto set up lol!

Will post the results once i've had the chance for a good long listen with movies and music but once again many thanks for the reply and information it really is appreciated

Why has no-one wrote a book about home cinema set up? It definately justifies one even if it's just to get a concensous of opinion to cut out some of the confusion!

 

[Petherick]

Hello Oldboy

For what it's worth, I have my identical speaker system set to 'large' for all except the centre, which is set to 'small' (obviously). And I have a sub which I don't use for stereo listening. That sounds best to me.

 

[Pistol Pete1]

Petherick:

Hello Oldboy

For what it's worth, I have my identical speaker system set to 'large' for all except the centre, which is set to 'small' (obviously). And I have a sub which I don't use for stereo listening. That sounds best to me.

But Oldboy's receiver can be set up to be 'large' or 'full band' with stereo listening (no sub), then when used for home cinema, it can add a crossover at 80Hz and set the speakers to small, without him having to change a setting (once initially set up).....

This will, in my opinion, be the best way to get the best out of the speakers whether listening to stereo or a movie.

How do i know this....I have the same receiver, and had the same speakers until recently!!!!

Saying all that, that set up worked for me, but Oldboy may prefer a different set up.....best to play around a bit and see which is best to your own ears......

 

[Anonymous]

I believe I have posted this before but........

Avoid setting your speakers, even if they are towers, to the "large" setting in your receiver's setup menus.

Receivers and preamp/processors typically have two settings for your speakers:
"small" and "large." You need to get past what these words actually mean in English, as they are a very poor choice for this feature of a processor. This setting actually has nothing to do with the size of the speakers, and everything to do with the range of the speakers. This setting determines when low frequencies are diverted from your front speakers
and into your subwoofer (the crossover frequency). In other words, it
has a tremendous effect on the bass you'll hear in movie soundtracks.

Very few speakers should actually use the "large" setting. Even most of the big, powered towers should not be used with the "large" setting because they can't produce these low frequencies (or they produce them without power and depth). What you should be thinking is that "large" means you have a truly full-range speaker; use "small" for everything else. If your speaker can't put out more than 100dB at 20 Hz, set it to "small."

There are three main reasons for avoiding the "large" setting.
The first is that crossovers aren't brick walls; they have slopes in both directions. The rule of thumb is that with typical bass management crossovers, your speaker should be flat to 1 octave below the crossover point. So, with an 80-Hz crossover point, your speaker should be flat to 40 Hz. Lots of speakers can do this. Only a few speakers are flat to 30 Hz (even though manufacturers' specs will try to tell you otherwise, there really are only a few, at least within a reasonable price range), and even fewer speakers are flat to 20 Hz (and below) at the levels a home theater will be asking for. The large setting on a receiver doesn't filter any low frequencies from a speaker to the sub. If the speaker isn't capable of the really low frequencies, they simply will be lost. Set to "small," however, these low frequencies will be filtered out and passed to the subwoofer, which is capable of reproducing them.

The second reason for using the "small" setting is that when you relieve a speaker of low bass duties, that speaker becomes a much easier load for your amp, and the midrange quality of the speaker often improves.

The third reason for using the "small" setting is that bass frequencies have the greatest interaction problems with a room. Multiple sources of low bass in non-optimal places cause all sorts of sound wave problems. The best place for your main speakers is almost never the best place from which to produce low bass. Being able to produce all the bass from one spot in the room gives you the best chance of optimizing your room's bass response.

A final thing to note is you have to be wary of processors that allow you to set different crossover points for different speakers. With the exception of some very high-end processors, you should not use this feature. The vast majority of processors with this "feature" high-pass each speaker's signal at the frequency you specify, and send it to the speaker. This is good. However, to feed the sub, the processor will sum the full-range signals from all the full-range channels and the LFE channel, and then low-pass this signal at the lowest crossover point you set. So, if you have your surround crossover set to 100 Hz and your main crossover set to 40 Hz, there will be a 60-Hz hole in your surround channels' responses. This is not good. THX chose 80 Hz as its bass management crossover point for a reason; trust their research and experimentation. "
Bottom line - if you have a sub, your speakers are "small and your crossover is 80Hz"

 

[Pistol Pete1]

Wise words, Dave.......

 

[Anonymous]

hi oldboy. I come back again. I didnt read your post properly, much apologies. you have the floorstanders on the front , i thought you had all bookshelves, the floorstanders go down to 48 hz +- 3db in the specs. you could possibly get away with them set them to large but "technically" to get the full sound of the soundtracks you should them as "small" and set the crossover to between 50-60hz to utilise as much of their bandwidth as possible and throw anything really low to the sub, the centre and the bookshelf sats will be around 70-80hz crossover. Again the most important aspect of the setup is the volume of the sub. Its very natural for people to set them too loud and although this will give you great rumbly sub bass that will drive you neighbours mad you will loose "punch". You shouldn't "hear" the sub it should merge seamlessly into the soundscape of your speakers.

Yes a book would be great. If you read the manuals and magazines and forums, it seems that nobody including manufacturers, suppliers, experts etc, can agree on what to do. It took me years to find the sound that I was looking for from my set up. But at the end of the day (and with a lot of hindsight I must add) it is all just logical common sense....

....You set the amp crossovers a little above the lowest frequencys that your speakers will output. (and dont set the sub too loud!)

that is it.

Also from what i have heard so far, the automatic calibration thingy's dont do the best job. They are just for convenience, you are better off just getting out the tape measure and measuring the distances to the center of the seating postition accurately manually yourself. And for the levels set the front left and right to +-0 and work from there. If you are in an uk terrace with thin parting walls then you may want to up the centre a notch or two to hear voices without having to turn up the volume too much and if the rear sats are up against the wall with your sofa you might want to turn them down a notch or two so they dont stick in your ears so much

The THX recomendations are for typical domestic 5.1 7.1 set ups where it is all bookshelves, a centre, and a sub. in this case the 80hz makes perfect sense as none of those bookshelf speakers do anythything great below that point but your floorstanders go much lower than 80hz and it would be a shame to waste their extra bandwidth. I havent heard before about this high pass low pass problem, my first reaction is surely the manufacturers wouldnt do something this absurd on a product dedicated to sound fidelity but then on cheap amps you never know, rather worrying, it is defintly something you should be able to hear if it is present. if so then just go with the 80hz on all.

To really put you off the whole idea, personally, as a once apon a time music producer I must say that I think 80hz is a really bad place for a crossover especially for listening to music. This 60hz to 120hz area is such a delicate area and so hard to get right and allowing control of it into the hands of joe blogs is just a really bad idea. I understand that you have to put it somewhere but it is a massive compromise for music fidelity unless you have really and truely accuratly matched the cutoffs, the volume and phase between the sub and the speakers, and the only way to do this properly is with a computer. So unless you have a high end microphone, dac, and the right software on your computer, you are on a looser from the start.

on that note, I have just finished setting up my own after moving house so I think I will forget about all the other boxes and go watch a bluray. Seeya.

.

 

[Anonymous]

pjf500, excellent posts. I was really confused about this topic a few weeks ago and read all I could on this matter. Your posts are along the lines of what 'experts' say.

pjf500:

Also from what i have heard so far, the automatic calibration thingy's dont do the best job. They are just for convenience, you are better off just getting out the tape measure and measuring the distances to the center of the seating postition accurately manually yourself. And for the levels set the front left and right to +-0 and work from there. If you are in an uk terrace with thin parting walls then you may want to up the centre a notch or two to hear voices without having to turn up the volume too much and if the rear sats are up against the wall with your sofa you might want to turn them down a notch or two so they dont stick in your ears so much.

Just to add another opinion on this, Ive found the distance set by the auto calibration to be spot on. Setting the front left and right levels to 0 as a starting point is not what the manufacturers of the auto calibration software had in mind. Their software sets the speaker levels for reference playback levels as designed when the movie was mixed (75db). So, setting your volume to 0db will result in the test tone from each speaker measuring 75db. Setting the front left/right to 0 and everything else relative to that is OK, just that you won't get the 'reference' point the mixer originally intended. No big deal though...

 

[Oldboy]

barnsleydave and pjf500,

Very many thanks for the plain english replies and for taking the time out to help, thank you!

I have found this whole area very confusing from the start and it doesn't help when you look into it further and find so many differing opinions that it sends your head into a spin!

So after taking all the advice into consideration i had a tinker yesterday and the results are in....the small set up is the best for my system. I changed the crossover for the floorstanders to 60hz and when in stereo mode with no sub they sound much better and i'm much happier with how music sounds as a result but i'm still undecided if i like music with or without the sub, it seems to depend on the genre of music being played. For example something that goes really low into the bass frequencies (Chemical Brothers) loses that punch and some bass so the sub is needed but my Tom Petty collection sounds better without the sub so still a little confused there lol.

As for auto calibration i always do that first and then adjust from there. Of course i measure distances myself and i use an spl meter for my speaker levels but i find the auto calibration very accurate on my Denon amp and only some minor adjustment is needed after it's done it's thing BUT i have never had an auto calibration that has got the sub right...it's always measured as being further away than it is and set far too high level wise but the rest is never very far out.

I have now even written down a hard copy of my system set up just in case my amp loses the settings so i guess that's a measure of how happy i now am so thank you to everyone who contributed...i may just have got my head around it all, finally LOL!!

Best regards, Oldboy