Hi andrew! You know it says in WHSV that the ps3 firmware upgrade is due that will allow bitstream, is the information from sony? i only ask becouse all the stuff ive been reading on various forums and web sites has been saying that the PS3 i unable to do so due to hardware limitations, this isnt a stab or any such thing. I was just really hoping it was possible! is there a chance of putting this question to sony????? becouse its been coming soon for ages Cheers
PS3 and Bitstream
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The PS3 will already pass SD audio bitstreams via HDMI (and indeed optical digital), but it's been rumoured that it will get the firmware upgrades to let it pass all HD datastreams via HDMI at some point.
As you know, I'm not directly involved with the magazine, so not sure where the information there came from. Perhaps someone on the review team can chip in...?
As you know, I'm not directly involved with the magazine, so not sure where the information there came from. Perhaps someone on the review team can chip in...?
I would also be intrested to know when this firmware may be available, it mentioned in the January issue that "a firmware upgrade promised) on page 59. Any more info on this would be gratefull as many seem to think the hardware is limited and can not do this. Fingers crossed this is not true 
Not, of course, that there's anything wrong with the way it sounds using Linear PCM to carry the multichannel audio...
Ok, this is what I have read so cannot be taken as gospel. The PS3 will never be able to pass HD audio (Dolby True HD and DTS HD MA) as bitstream via HDMI because of hardware limitations. At the moment, it can decode Dolby True HD on board and pass this as Linear PCM via HDMI. There have been rumours of Sony talking to the people behind DTS to see if it would be possible to allow the PS3 to do the same thing with DTS HD Master Audio ie. decode on board and send via HDMI as Linear PCM. This could be implemented via a future firmware update. At the moment, there are a couple of players (eg. HD EP35) that have the ability to send DTS HD MA and Dolby True HD via HDMI as bitstream. This is because the hardware has been enabled to give them that ability. The fact is that none of the players have the processing power to decode DTS HD MA on board - it's just too processor intensive. Dolby True HD isn't as difficult to decode apparently which is why a lot of player can decode it and send it as LPCM. If enabled, the PS3 would be the first player to be able to decode DTS HD MA on board. This would only be possible because its sheer processing power. The explanation for the delay might be down to the complexity of the software required to achieve it. Like Andrew says, there's nothing wrong with the ability of the PS3 to send Dolby True HD as LPCM. From what I've heard, it's great and I'm sure it will be the same if they can achieve it with DTS HD MA.
If there any benefit to having the AV amp decode the surround sound formats as opposed to the PS3 ?
Do the amps do a better job ?
Do the amps do a better job ?
The short answer to that is yes. Amps do, generally, do a better of decode surround sound formats - which is a good thing too as that is what they were built for. Obviously the results vary from amp to amp. For anything other than the HD audio formats you should set the PS3 audio output to bitstream over HDMI or optical, depending on how you are hooked up to your amp. You should notice an improvement in sound quality. If your amp accepts LPCM over HDMI, set the PS3 to Linear PCM when you're watching a Blu-Ray or any disc with HD audio. This should give you another significant step up in audio quality. Obviously the downside is having to switch in the settings all the time.
Which highlights why it would be nice to be able to have hd sound formats transfered in bitstream over HDMI, I agree that LPCM is great sounding but if the PS3 is to stay ahead and become the best upgradable machine it must be able to send hd sound formats via bitstream.
I think that's ridiculous and you're asking for too much. The PS3 is an amazing piece of kit for under £300. When it was first released in the States, it was being sold at a loss of nearly $350 per unit. That's pretty much unheard of in modern technology and is some indication of how technology Sony sought to pack in there - the thing weighs about 8kg!! You tell me another machine that can play BD, upscale DVDs, has built in wi-fi (download movie trailers, upgrade software), has a 40GB hard drive for photos, movies and music, decode HD audio, will soon be able to double as a PVR, and I'll eat my Panama. Oh yeah, and it plays games too - not as good as the Xbox at the mo but it might get there with some decent titles this year. If you really want to send bitstream, then go out and spend £500 upwards on a dedicated deck like the Pioneer. If you can notice the step up in sound, then you've obviously got much better hearing than me. Otherwise just accept the limitation of a sub-£300 machine. I personally don't think there's a better piece of all round technology around.
[quote user="FuzzyinLondon"]I think that's ridiculous and you're asking for too much. The PS3 is an amazing piece of kit for under £300. When it was first released in the States, it was being sold at a loss of nearly $350 per unit. That's pretty much unheard of in modern technology and is some indication of how technology Sony sought to pack in there - the thing weighs about 8kg!! You tell me another machine that can play BD, upscale DVDs, has built in wi-fi (download movie trailers, upgrade software), has a 40GB hard drive for photos, movies and music, decode HD audio, will soon be able to double as a PVR, and I'll eat my Panama. Oh yeah, and it plays games too - not as good as the Xbox at the mo but it might get there with some decent titles this year. If you really want to send bitstream, then go out and spend £500 upwards on a dedicated deck like the Pioneer. If you can notice the step up in sound, then you've obviously got much better hearing than me. Otherwise just accept the limitation of a sub-£300 machine. I personally don't think there's a better piece of all round technology around.[/quote]
I kind of agree with Fuzzy (if not quite so vehemently!), that the PS3 is an excellent piece of kit for the price and we shouldn't expect it to do everything.
However, IMO as the PS3 is pretty much becoming the standard player for blu-ray discs (due mainly to the firmware upgrades keeping us up to date and the low price)..................... I, for one would like to see a formal statement from Sony to let us know if this amazing console really has this alleged hardware restriction stopping it from outputting LCM via bitstream over HDMI. As stated above, all we currently have are rumours and conjecture
At least then, those of us who desire this enhanced level of HD audio output can made an informed decision for ourselves as to whether we should invest in a better player or alternatively wait for the PS3 upgrade.
It doesn't sounds like much to ask................. does it?
I kind of agree with Fuzzy (if not quite so vehemently!), that the PS3 is an excellent piece of kit for the price and we shouldn't expect it to do everything.
However, IMO as the PS3 is pretty much becoming the standard player for blu-ray discs (due mainly to the firmware upgrades keeping us up to date and the low price)..................... I, for one would like to see a formal statement from Sony to let us know if this amazing console really has this alleged hardware restriction stopping it from outputting LCM via bitstream over HDMI. As stated above, all we currently have are rumours and conjecture
At least then, those of us who desire this enhanced level of HD audio output can made an informed decision for ourselves as to whether we should invest in a better player or alternatively wait for the PS3 upgrade.
It doesn't sounds like much to ask................. does it?
Fair point and yes, I totally accept that I might have got a bit carried away. I'm not a PS3 fanboy but I am passionate about good tech and I think the PS3 is a good current example. The problem is that no one is really looking at the picture from Sony's point of view. If you're Sony, then you know you've got to price your console aggressively to compete against the XBox 360 and the Wii, even if this means selling the console at a slight loss - which is common with games consoles in their infancy. You have a games machine that, at £300, doubles as a BD player and media hub with built-in wireless. You also sell stand-alone BD players. One of them is your flagship BDPS500B, which costs around £500 and allows bitstream over HDMI. Are you telling me that you would go out and publicize the fact that you offer a cheaper machine that can do everything the more expensive machine can do, and for £200 less? You wouldn't sell many stand-alone players would you? I think you'd end up running yourself out of business. Personally, I think if you've got the money to spend on a great AV setup with an amp that can decode bitsream HD audio and you've speakers that can truly give you the benefit of bitsream over LPCM, then you've probably got the money to spend on a player like the Pioneer LX70A which will give you the best picture and audio. The PS3 is a good player but it's not the best around. That costs more.
FuzzyinLondon,
I didnt mean to upset you so much All I said was it would be nice to have those features, I understand what you are saying about the PS3 being a great piece of kit for the price (mine cost £400), and in general I would agree. All I was wondering was, if it was going to be possible, for it to send the hd formats via bitstream in the future because as you said, dedicated amps should do a better job of decoding it than the ps3 itself.
Also just because I have new amp that can support hd sound formats, does not mean I have money to burn on a dedicated Blu-ray player, as this feature was one of the main reasons I decided to buy a ps3 in the first place.
I didnt mean to upset you so much
All I said was it would be nice to have those features, I understand what you are saying about the PS3 being a great piece of kit for the price (mine cost £400), and in general I would agree. All I was wondering was, if it was going to be possible, for it to send the hd formats via bitstream in the future because as you said, dedicated amps should do a better job of decoding it than the ps3 itself.Also just because I have new amp that can support hd sound formats, does not mean I have money to burn on a dedicated Blu-ray player, as this feature was one of the main reasons I decided to buy a ps3 in the first place.
Heh heh, no problem mate. It's a slow week at work and I've been spending too much time on here. Me getting cranky's just a sure sign that might blood sugar's low and that I should go get some lunch ;-). Believe me, as a PS3 owner, I would absolutely love those features. I paid £350 for the 60gb version a few months back. I want those True HD and DTS MA lights to come up on my Onkyo as much as anyone else. Realistically, I don't think that's going to happen though, at least not for a little while. Sony will not want to cannibalize sales of their standalone players. They need away to differentiate them in order to justify charging more for them. Therefore, I wouldn't expect them to offer bitstream audio features until the price of standalone players drops significantly. It just wouldn't make good business sense. If it is a hardware limitation, they may well change a few components in the future but I wouldn't expect it to happen for a while. They're currently trying to bring down their manufacturing as much as possible to turn a profit - hence the 40gb version with no backward compatibility or media card reader.
Bit of an odd thread this one - seems to be giving people the impression that bitstream TrueHD is preferable to LPCM, when of course thats cobblers.
LPCM is _digital_, as is TrueHD, and TrueHD will basically be unpacked to PCM before modulation by a DAC - where the unpacking takes place doesnt matter a jot as long as its done in time. Actually its far preferable to have the PS3 do it (so long as it doesnt down-sample in the process, which it doesnt afiak), which has a much more powerful processor than most AV Receivers, and has plenty of bandwidth with its HDMI 1.3 spec. In fact many Blu-Ray discs have uncompressed LPCM soundtracks, and I have read several times that when compared to TrueHD at the same bitrates the LPCM actually sounds better! This is odd given that TrueHD is a lossless format, and therefore should be identical, but perhaps this is another subtle advantage to un-packing _before_ it hits the receiver, letting the receiver just concentrate on the DAC (what it does best).
Plus of course with LPCM you dont need one of the handful of over-priced receivers that can decode TrueHD on-board and can get _all_ the sound out of good receiver costing a couple of hundred quid.
The same applies for DTS HD. (Not sure if/when the PS3 will unpack MA tho...)
Edit: Just in case you didn't realise, the PS3 has had the ability to output "bitstream" HD audio for quite a while now, its just the bitstream in question isnt compressed - its LPCM. It will select the format automatically for you, or you can manually select anything up to 7.1channels@192kHz! (from memory)
LPCM is _digital_, as is TrueHD, and TrueHD will basically be unpacked to PCM before modulation by a DAC - where the unpacking takes place doesnt matter a jot as long as its done in time. Actually its far preferable to have the PS3 do it (so long as it doesnt down-sample in the process, which it doesnt afiak), which has a much more powerful processor than most AV Receivers, and has plenty of bandwidth with its HDMI 1.3 spec. In fact many Blu-Ray discs have uncompressed LPCM soundtracks, and I have read several times that when compared to TrueHD at the same bitrates the LPCM actually sounds better! This is odd given that TrueHD is a lossless format, and therefore should be identical, but perhaps this is another subtle advantage to un-packing _before_ it hits the receiver, letting the receiver just concentrate on the DAC (what it does best).
Plus of course with LPCM you dont need one of the handful of over-priced receivers that can decode TrueHD on-board and can get _all_ the sound out of good receiver costing a couple of hundred quid.
The same applies for DTS HD. (Not sure if/when the PS3 will unpack MA tho...)
Edit: Just in case you didn't realise, the PS3 has had the ability to output "bitstream" HD audio for quite a while now, its just the bitstream in question isnt compressed - its LPCM. It will select the format automatically for you, or you can manually select anything up to 7.1channels@192kHz! (from memory)
If you have a 7.1 AV system then the PS3 does limit your listening potential somewhat as it has to downmix 7.1 DolbyTrueHD / dts-HD HRA tracks to 5.1 to output them as LPCM via HDMI. It can however output a 7.1 native LPCM track via HDMI.
This page has allsorts of useful technical information and other tidbits on the Playstation3, and it seems pretty much on the money so I have no reason to doubt any of the information presented there.
This page has allsorts of useful technical information and other tidbits on the Playstation3, and it seems pretty much on the money so I have no reason to doubt any of the information presented there.
There was a post by a Blu Ray insider on AVS that the PS3 may have a FW upgrade to enable DTS HD MA by the 2nd qtr this year.
The PS3 really is an amazing piece of equipment.
The PS3 really is an amazing piece of equipment.
It's been rumoured for a while mate. Hopefully it'll come to fruition. At the moment it's only really Fox who have started using DTS HD MA on their discs but more may start adopting it in the future. Obviously, it would be yet another string in the bow of the PS3 if it was upgraded to handle it.
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