Problem with muddy sounding speakers

[adamsimcox]

I'm hoping a hi-fi ninja out there can help me with my new set-up.

I have a Pro-ject Debut Carbon turntable hooked up to a vintage Sony TA-F4A Integrated amplifier and some brand new Mission 9.1 Diamond speakers, but I'm having real problems with the sound. When I listen to vinyl through my Grado S80 headphones, it sounds absolutely fantastic. However, the speakers are awful; muddy, with no real separation between lyrics and instruments. At first I put this down to the difference between headphones and speakers, but it seems to be much more than that. The sound is out and out bad (and it's definately wired properly, with QED Silver anniversary XT cable - I've tried the cables in every possible permetation!).

One thing I wondered, was maybe it was the fact that I had 2mm plugs going into the input on the amp, and 4mm banana plugs into the speakers. Would this have a negative effect on the sound?

Any advice greatly received...

 

[RobinKidderminster]

2mm amp OUTPUT to 4mm speaker input u mean? Then fine

 

[CnoEvil]

I had a Sony TAF-4A back in the day *shok*....it was a decent budget amp which I enjoyed at the time.

It might be the speakers, but it's probably due to set up and room acoustics (which headphones take out of the equation).

- Are the speakers on decent stands?

- Are the stands filled and rock steady?

- Are the speakers held down with Blu-tak?

- How near the walls (back and side) are they?

- Is your listening seat very near a wall?

- Are the tweeters at ear height when seated?

- Are the speakers on a suspended wooden floor?

- How is your room decorated?

 

[adamsimcox]

Thanks for the quick reply. The speakers, aren't on stands, unfortunately, (two boys under three means it's not really an option!) they're placed roughly a foot away from the wall on a media centre (at the same height and positioning as one another). The seat I usually listen to them on is next to a wall, but I've experimented with them all around the wall, and they sound pretty bad wherever I place them. in terms of decoration, it's a fairly standard rectangular wall, pictures on the walls, with the media centre at one end of the room and the listening chair at the other end.

To be honest, I would probably have put down the sound to lack of stands and generally not amazing position, but I listened to my brothers hi-fi at the weekend (which cost a lot less, and which also has no speaker stands) and it sounds so much better than this it's painful! Which makes me think it's a technical problem rather than a room/lack of stands problem...

 

[davedotco]

I'm 90% sure this is down to positioning and setup.

There's a modest contribution from the amp/speaker pairing, mediocre vintage amp + loose, bass heavy modern speakers but mostly it is down to the setup.

You need to isolate the turntable, a simple lightweight, decoupled wall shelf is best and do something similar for the speakers. Proper floor stands are by far the best option but if you can't do that then you are never going to get the best from your system.

If you really can't accomodate stands and if the speakers are new, see if you can return them for something with a lighter, tighter bass, Zenzor 1s say. Try some desktop stands, like these......

http://www.dv247.com/manufacturer/IsoAcoustics/2561

 

[The_Lhc]

These speakers are bi-wirable, have you still got the links between the binding posts connected?

 

[chebby]

However, the speakers are awful; muddy, with no real separation between lyrics and instruments.

Have you checked to see if the tweeters are blown?

 

[adamsimcox]

I would be surprised if the tweeters were blown as the speakers are (supposedly!) brand new. What's the best way to test if they are?

I'm going to try and borrow a pair of speaker stands, and see how they sound with those. If there's no improvement I guess i'll take the speakers back and get some better ones - my fault for trying to do it on the cheap!

Thanks to everyone that took the time to reply, it's much appreciated.

 

[The_Lhc]

These speakers are bi-wirable, have you still got the links between the binding posts connected?

 

[hg]

To be honest, I would probably have put down the sound to lack of stands and generally not amazing position, but I listened to my brothers hi-fi at the weekend (which cost a lot less, and which also has no speaker stands) and it sounds so much better than this it's painful! Which makes me think it's a technical problem rather than a room/lack of stands problem...

That looks like a reasonable conclusion. I doubt the improvements from pulling the speakers out into the room on stands will make fix what sounds like a fault. It is easy enough to check by temporarily using a couple of kitchen chairs.

If these are new speakers and the individual drive units are all working it is possible they may have got the drive units wired the wrong way round. That is, internally a +ve and -ve have got swapped. This will cause a cancellation dip around the crossover frequency. Does that sound like what you might be hearing? Do both speakers sound the same?

PS. I know this is not your model but this might be an interesting read.

 

[davedotco]

You still have not told us where the turntable is position wise. In a vinyl system this is every bit as important as speaker positioning.

Where is it placed and what is it on?

 

[iceman16]

However, the speakers are awful; muddy, with no real separation between lyrics and instruments.

Have you checked to see if the tweeters are blown?

+1

IME..even when the speakers were not on dedicated stands , they won't sound as bad as you described.

 

[TrevC]

Listen with an ear close to the tweeters. Hear anything?

 

[Thompsonuxb]

Hello....!

Lhc's post....

Check the links/plates are in place.

These speakers are bi-wirable, have you still got the links between the binding posts connected?

 

[Al ears]

Check link plate.

Tweeters can be checked by lightly touching you fingernail to the dome itselg, there should be a light vibration in most case, or simply just sticking your ear up against them. Check they are wired up correctly as I would not expect these speakers to sound 'muddy'. Can you borrow another amp and try them with this?

 

[relocated]

Check link plate.

Tweeters can be checked by lightly touching you fingernail to the dome itselg,

Are you actually being serious?

 

[Glacialpath]

Surly if the speakers are bi-wireable then take the bridge connectors away from the binding posts and just connect the speaker cable to the "High" plus and minus binding posts.

Making sure the amp is on very low volume.

GP

 

[The_Lhc]

Surly if the speakers are bi-wireable then take the bridge connectors away from the binding posts and just connect the speaker cable to the "High" plus and minus binding posts.

You mean just as a test to see if the tweeters are working? Given he hasn't responded to 3 different comments about the binding post links, I'm not convinced a response is going to be forthcoming this time either.

 

[Al ears]

Check link plate.

Tweeters can be checked by lightly touching you fingernail to the dome itselg,

Are you actually being serious?

Yes

 

[Thompsonuxb]

Surly if the speakers are bi-wireable then take the bridge connectors away from the binding posts and just connect the speaker cable to the "High" plus and minus binding posts.

You mean just as a test to see if the tweeters are working? Given he hasn't responded to 3 different comments about the binding post links, I'm not convinced a response is going to be forthcoming this time either.

Lol....

Don't give up Lhc, hopefully they would have seen your post, checked and the problem is resolved.

Its a thankless job, somebody has to do it.

 

[kitkat]

Your speakers will sound strange as they do not exist, there is no such speaker as a Mission 9.1 Diamond, what do you really have ?

 

[Thompsonuxb]

Lol....

You know that's what I thought when I read the OP. Even googled it.

Just took it he meant Wharfdales....

Your speakers will sound strange as they do not exist, there is no such speaker as a Mission 9.1 Diamond, what do you really have ?

 

[davedotco]

Actually the gorgeous feline in my signature informs me that a special hybid speaker using Diamond drive units in the superior Mission cabinets are big favourites on her home planet, Zod.

They are very good speakers, quite cheap to buy but next day delivery requires the involvement of an Outsider hyperdrive shunt, the use of such a device will cost One billion Stars*. Normal Parcelforce delivery is available but will take approximately 70 to 80 years.

It is recomended that you take a decade off work to avoid disappointment by missing the delivery.

* Galactic currency, one star being roughly equivilent to one US Dollar.

 

[Al ears]

Actually the gorgeous feline in my signature informs me that a special hybid speaker using Diamond drive units in the superior Mission cabinets are big favourites on her home planet, Zod.

They are very good speakers, quite cheap to buy but next day delivery requires the involvement of an Outsider hyperdrive shunt, the use of such a device will cost One billion Stars*. Normal Parcelforce delivery is available but will take approximately 70 to 80 years.

It is recomended that you take a decade off work to avoid disappointment by missing the delivery.

* Galactic currency, one star being roughly equivilent to one US Dollar.

Zod off, I know when you're pulling our legs. I think.

 

[davedotco]

Actually the gorgeous feline in my signature informs me that a special hybid speaker using Diamond drive units in the superior Mission cabinets are big favourites on her home planet, Zod.

They are very good speakers, quite cheap to buy but next day delivery requires the involvement of an Outsider hyperdrive shunt, the use of such a device will cost One billion Stars*. Normal Parcelforce delivery is available but will take approximately 70 to 80 years.

It is recomended that you take a decade off work to avoid disappointment by missing the delivery.

* Galactic currency, one star being roughly equivilent to one US Dollar.

Zod off, I know when you're pulling our legs. I think.

Not at all.

Lucy (in the picture) is our cross siamese. She missed the mothership for a return to Zod after a two week break on the Costa del Sol. We had to rescue her and give her a home, she needs staff.