Power Amp & Cable

[admin_exported]

Hello,

l'm considering the bi amp option & would value the opinion & experience of others.

l have an Arcam 8 CD & amp with Monitor Audio RS 1's, linked together with QED Silver Anniversary cable.

lf l do go down the bi amp route, l intend to use the 8 integrated to drive upper end, with the QED cable & a power amp to drive the mid/bass.

My questions are these:-

would people recommend either an Arcam 8 or 9 power amp, the 9 having 70w per channel as opposed to the 50 of the 8?

l know the QED cable is considered bass light, so any recommendations as to the 'speaker cable for the mid/bass?

Thanks.

 

[Thaiman]

I wouldn't bother personally, your RS 1's are easy enough to drive so the alpha8 should be able to drive them very well. One more amp in this system will make very little different to the sound imo.

Save up for a proper upgrade I reckon

 

[d_a_n1979]

I'd agree with Thaiman - You dont need a power amp in this set-up unless you decide to upgrade the speakers to either the RS5's, 6's or 8's.

If you do want to upgrade your amp it may be worth looking at upgrading to either an Arcam Alpha 9 or 10 integrated amp which will give you a boost in power and believe me, there is a noticable difference between the Arcam Alpha 8 and 9/10 integrated amps in regards to power and sound.

If you do fancy a new amp/or looking for a more powerful but still refined sound, it may be worth taking a look at the NAD C352 integrated amp which you can get for £270 off superfi.co.uk. It received great write-ups and is still a damn good amp now even though its been replaced with the C355 which i heard last night with M/A RS8 speakers and it was amazing.

 

[JoelSim]

Biamping is definitely the way to go.

However, if I were you I would save up and get a new amp and power amp, I use the Arcam A85/P85 which you could pick up for £400-£500 on eBay.

I don't agree with Thaiman, and I find that the pre/power combination really works in detail, clarity, soundstage etc etc

 

[Thaiman]

[quote user="JoelSim"]I don't agree with Thaiman, and I find that the pre/power combination really works in detail, clarity, soundstage etc etc[/quote]

I am using Pre/power! and would normally recommended such a set up but I believe the improvement from biamping on chesterfield's system will be so minimum that I would call a sidestep rather than upgrade.

 

[Anonymous]

OK, thanks for the response.

As some people are saying, that going to a 9 integrated would make a positive difference, wouldn't a 9 power driving the mid/bass have the same improvement?

Thaiman, l have seen that you have stated that Gotham interconnects/'speaker wire are exceptional value for money. As an alternative, would you say that the Gotham 'speaker cable is better than the QED SA, especially as it has the reputation, as mentioned, as being bass light. Would anyone recommend any other 'speaker wire in the region of £10 per metre?

 

[Thaiman]

I whole heartedly (Is there such a word?!) recommend Gotham over many cables including the QED.

We (many audio freaks, get together once in a while) had blind test the cables and found they are very hard to beat.

 

[JoelSim]

Whichever cable you choose, you should use the same cable throughout.

 

[Anonymous]

Are you saying that l shouldn't be using the QED for top end &, for example Gotham, for the lower?

 

[Anonymous]

my first "proper" seperates system comprised an Arcam Alpha 8 intergrated amp with some MS 902i's. I was very happy with the amp and speakers but i decided to investigate the bi-wiring and bi-amping options anyway. when i bi-wired the speakers using just the intergrated amp i found a big difference (improvement) in the sound quality. however, after purchasing an Arcam Alpha 8P Power amp and bi-amping the speakers i found there was no real difference.

 

[drummerman]

[quote user="ifitsoundsgoodlistentoit"]when i bi-wired the speakers using just the intergrated amp i found a big difference (improvement) in the sound quality. however, after purchasing an Arcam Alpha 8P Power amp and bi-amping the speakers i found there was no real difference.[/quote]

You make a good point. As I have stated many times before bi-amping (and bi-wiring) is a gamble and far from guaranteed to improve matters. There are valid technical reasons for that. By any means try and see if it makes a difference in your system but do so before you spend a lot of cash on cables or another amp!

Pre/Power or separating Power Supplies have more technical merit and the results are usually more consistent and beneficial but thats broadly speaking and the same applies ... try before you spend a lot of money.

 

[JoelSim]

[quote user="chesterfieldhouse"]
Are you saying that l shouldn't be using the QED for top end &, for example Gotham, for the lower?
[/quote]

Yes, you should use one or the other cables for both HF and LF or it could sound disparate.

 

[JoelSim]

[quote user="drummerman"]
[quote user="ifitsoundsgoodlistentoit"]when i bi-wired the speakers using just the intergrated amp i found a big difference (improvement) in the sound quality. however, after purchasing an Arcam Alpha 8P Power amp and bi-amping the speakers i found there was no real difference.[/quote]

You make a good point. As I have stated many times before bi-amping (and bi-wiring) is a gamble and far from guaranteed to improve matters. There are valid technical reasons for that. By any means try and see if it makes a difference in your system but do so before you spend a lot of cash on cables or another amp!

Pre/Power or separating Power Supplies have more technical merit and the results are usually more consistent and beneficial but thats broadly speaking and the same applies ... try before you spend a lot of money.
[/quote]

I would tend to agree that biamping was pointless, but from my experience biamping is very beneficial.

 

[Anonymous]

I used to have a pair of bookshelf MA S4is, a Marantz CD67SE and an Arcam 8 integrated and 8 power. By adding the power I found there was a considerable improvement in sound. It was cleaner, more focused, the bass was more defined and less warm and overall the 8i alone was just inadequate after adding the 8P.

Just my 10 pence worth...

 

[JoelSim]

[quote user="igglebert"]I used to have a pair of bookshelf MA S4is, a Marantz CD67SE and an Arcam 8 integrated and 8 power. By adding the power I found there was a considerable improvement in sound. It was cleaner, more focused, the bass was more defined and less warm and overall the 8i alone was just inadequate after adding the 8P.

Just my 10 pence worth...[/quote]

Couldn't agree more. Make that 20p.

 

[Anonymous]

[quote user="chesterfieldhouse"]

would people recommend either an Arcam 8 or 9 power amp, the 9 having 70w per
channel as opposed to the 50 of the 8?

l know the QED cable is considered bass light, so any recommendations as to
the 'speaker cable for the mid/bass?

Thanks.
[/quote]

I was using a power amp with my RS1's and it did make a difference.Not massive but certainly some of the usual gains to be had from bi amping.A friend has an alpha 7 amp and a P75 power amp, RS1's and ,again, there is a clear improvement.Maybe you should try the 8 rather than the 9.The 9 might be overkill. As for cable, i have said it before and i will say it again, can't understand why anyone uses silver anniversaey cable, never mind on mon audios for which it does not match well ( especially RS1's).Try DNM reson mark 2.Similar price online and a superior cable in every way.

 

[drummerman]

[quote user="JoelSim"][quote user="igglebert"]I used to have a pair of bookshelf MA S4is, a Marantz CD67SE and an Arcam 8 integrated and 8 power. By adding the power I found there was a considerable improvement in sound. It was cleaner, more focused, the bass was more defined and less warm and overall the 8i alone was just inadequate after adding the 8P.

Just my 10 pence worth...[/quote] Couldn't agree more. Make that 20p.[/quote]

Like I said, you are not feeding the drivers directly but through a (passive) crossover network with all the implications with it. Because of that, results can, shall we say, vary slightly to making no discernable difference whatsoever, the same goes for bi-wiring. If you really want to hear the benefits of 'bi-amping' go active or/and separate the crossover to an electronic/active device. I believe Densen amongst others offer that option. In addition you are using the same in-built pre-amplifier section and your money would (usually and in my experience) be better spent to separate that ie. pre/power than the 'bi-amp' option mentioned although at increased cost.

I am a believer in simple is best and usually cheaper. I have yet to hear a 'bi-amped' system that outperforms a similarely priced single box amplified one if carefully chosen but I have'nt heard that many that I could make a universal statement. If you have an older system it may well be cost effective to add a similar older, second hand power amp to it but even there I'd say, by selling your existing integrated and putting the saved funds towards a more sophisticated, better integrated reaps greater rewards.

 

[Anonymous]

Having said what I have about my bi-amping experiences, I agree with Drummerman. For any given money to spend I would look at a single integrated or possibly a pre/power. An upgrade path would then be a power for biamping or mono-blocking. At the time the 8i/8p was the best price/sound combo. Oh how I love the Alpha range. Magic.

 

[Anton90125]

[quote user="JoelSim"][quote user="chesterfieldhouse"]
Are you saying that l shouldn't be using the QED for top end &, for example Gotham, for the lower?
[/quote]

Yes, you should use one or the other cables for both HF and LF or it could sound disparate.[/quote]

From my experience, I have to disagree.

I have found by careful choice (and hard work) of which cable you use for the top and bottom, you can tailor the sound to meet your requirements. This may mean a lot of testing but its worth in the end.

By doing this testing you will also prove to yourself that cables do sound different for if they didn't you would hear any improvement no matter what combination you tried.

For quite a while I used Van den Hul CS122 with QED C38 cable. This combo worked well with my valve amp (VTL 30/30) /Speakers (Celestion SL600) that I had then. It also worked well when I got my second VTL and moved into bi amp mode.

 

[Anonymous]

There is a lot ultra techy boffinry on this thread about how you should not bi amp.I would ignore it if i were you.I have yet to hear a system when bi amped, and i have heard several, where the power amp does not improve things, even with relatively easy to drive speakers.if you like the sound of your alpha 8, and don't want to sell it, buy the power amp.

 

[Thaiman]

[quote user="Fraziel"]There is a lot ultra techy boffinry on this thread about how you should not bi amp.I would ignore it [/quote]

The answer I gave always directly to the question. In this case the money will be better spend on a better pair of speakers first then may be Biamp would make a worthwhile upgrade later. This is not a ultra techie answer, I just call it common sense. and yes, I had sucessfully Bi-amps in the past.

 

[Anonymous]

Well, thanks for all the very interesting advice/comments/debate & points of view.

l guess l'm going to have a play around with some alternative 'speaker cable as a first (cheapest) move & bi wire.

Though a number of people are saying that QED doesn't suit MA 'speakers, l'm loath to buy two more runs or pay for biwire cable. So l think l'm going to use the QED for the lower, even though it is a little bass light, & consider something for the top end.

Any suggestions????????

 

[drummerman]

[quote user="chesterfieldhouse"]Any suggestions???????? [/quote]

I think I am more at a loss than you are! What exactly are you trying to achieve or what is the problem with your current system??

 

[Anonymous]

That's the trouble when threads go on for a bit, you kinda lose the beginning!

lt seems, according to some, that biwiring with these componants, maybe beneficial. As an option, just playing around l suppose, l'm going to use the QED cable as one of the runs & something else as the other.

Contributors to the thread have said you should use the same cable, whatever that may be, with others saying you can successfully have different cable.

As far as the problem with the system, l guess there isn't one. l know the point you are making about enjoying the music & l do, lots of it!

As you have said Drummerman, try before you buy & don't make expensive mistakes. The cable option is just a cheap alternative that may or may not work out.

As for biamping we'll see.

 

[Anonymous]

i demo'd my speakers last night single wired , using jumper leads made from the same cable i was using, and bi wired.Both myself and my mate could not hear any difference whatsoever between single and bi wiring the RS1's.We swapped the cable about several times and tried several cd's.Conclusion- dont bi wire RS1's! it is a waste of money.I already have the cable required cos i used to biamp but if you dont already have it i would not bother.Buy a single run of better cable, like the dnm reson.Its similarly priced to the silver anniversary and is miles better, especially when it comes to bass depth and treble quality .Ideal for MA speakers.I would get rid of the silver anniversary if i were you.I cannot think of a worse cable to use on a pair of RS1's.