Pioneer Lx87 and cm8, cmc & cm1 (great sound, but got a headache)

[Sliced Bread]

So being completely unable to find anywhere in a reasonable distance that could demo the lx87 and a3030 I decided to just go for it and buy the lx87 on a 7 day return basis as that was the cheaper of the two.

Deeply impressed by the detail retrieval if this combination, but I've find that after extended listening that it can give me a bit of a headache.

I've tried running it via auto calibration and manual calibration (though not eq) and the manual gives me the headache, while the auto sounds like it's missing something.

I've only got a few more days before I need to make a definite decision so any suggestions would be welcome. If I return it the next stop would be the yamaha a3030, but that's more money.

Any suggestions would be appreciated.

 

[abacus]

There are a lot of features on the LX87 (Some are just a waste of space) and 7 days will not be enough to get a good balance. (The full auto system should just be the start of tuning, not as a complete balanced setup)

The second point is that all rooms have problems (Unless they have been acoustically treated) so it’s possible that the setup has just removed a problem that you had got used too. (Hence you think something is missing)

Try lowering the X curve for starters to see if this reduces the problem, however I suspect that the receiver/speaker combination is not best matched, (Hence the reason you need to try different combinations of equipment to see which suits your room and ears) although normally Pioneer and B & W go well together, I found I got a more accurate sound using a Pioneer Monitor Audio combination.

When I was comparing receivers the LX87 gave the ideal match for my system over others, but it is still taking time to fine tune it for optimum performance.

Remember the Pioneer has been tuned by a music studio, so will tend to be more analytical then some others and may not be right for you. (The Yamaha would probably be better if that is the case)

Finally don’t be afraid to use the features of the LX87 as contrary to what you may read, activation and setup of the correct processing can give a much more accurate sound than pure direct. (This is the reason you very rarely see pure direct used in music production)

Hope this helps

Bill

 

[Sliced Bread]

Thanks to both of you, there are some good suggestions here.

It looks like I've got a long job in front of me.

With my past receiver (Onkyo 905), I just set the distance and levels (manually) and that was it. The amp had a pretty decent balance, and sounded unnatural with EQ.

With the Pioneer, in many ways the sound is superior (far far more detailed), but the balance seems to be simultaniously too bright and have too much bass, while the lower mids seem a bit shy. Some of it seems to come from THX Loudness, which I have now turned off. However, even listening to the news just doesn't seem comfortable.

Maybe I just prefer a different sound.

I'll give the EQ a go and see what I can do. It would be nice to get it to work as I would like to keep the detail, especially in the bass which is some of the best I've heard.

 

[michael hoy]

Give this a try and see what you think.

1) Set Reciever to MCAAC preset 1 (M1). Now Run Auto MCAAC with mic in you listening position so the mic is right where my ears are during listening)

2) Go into Manual Sp Setup and change the SP settings if neccessary(crossover to 100hz for me and speakers to small)

3) Now re-run Auto MCAAC but select custom, and then select Keep SP settings.

4) Now you have an Auto MCAAC calibration saved to M1 (....note: you must select which preset you want Auto MCAAC to save calibration data to before you enter the audio setup menu.) Now go into Data Management--------> Data Copy and copy M1's data to M2 and also to M3. Now you have carbon copies of this calibration in M1-M3.

5) Now go into Manual MCAAC--->EQ Professional------>Reverb Measurement and get a reading on the the frequency response characteristics of your room. Be sure to select EQ OFF(standing waves not controlled for via MCAAC fliters) in the Reverb Measurement menu because you don't want the standing wave adjustements (EQ on) to be factored in to the room reverb measurments. Also make sure you haven't moved the mic.

6) After test tones are done, go into Manual MCAAC--->EQ Professional------>Reverb View , and you can analyze the frequency response of individual channels at various frequencies. Based upon that data, you would select the appropriate capture delay time for MCAAC to capture data during for the upcoming EQ calibration.

Change that time frame under Manual MCAAC--->EQ Professional------>Advanced EQ Setup to whatever you decide is the appropriate capture delay time ....(Pioneer recommends 30-50 ms, but they encourage you to analyze the data under reverb view first and refer to the advanced MCAAc software manual for analysis purposes). Note: the default capture delay time is than 80-160 ms.

7) Change to MCAAC preset 2 (M2) before you run the new advanced EQ calibration with the new capture time. Go under Manual MCAAC--->EQ Professional------>Advanced EQ Setup to start the advanced EQ calibration, and MCAAC should make a more accurate calibration since it will now capture sonic information sooner after the speakers output sound, and get a read on what the frequency response is of the speakers themselves, and not the speakers and all the reverb which accumulates as time passes. (Default capture time is 80-160 ms and thus collects more reverb and less true speaker reading)

Now you should have an accurate calibration. Also, now you can easily compare the Auto MCAAC EQ effects that are stored in M1 with the advanced EQ effects in M2 while listening to content with a simple button press on the remote. You could also juice the base a few db in M3, and also compare running the base a bit hot to a flat calibration that you have in M1 and M2.

 

[Sliced Bread]

So. A lot of playing around this week with the setup. Both following Michaels avice above, plus adding a little manual calibrations too.

Finally I have movie sound (almost) where I want it. It is still a bit fatiguing, but it's starting to sound good.

Music on the other hand, is still pretty questionable.

I realistically need to make decision tonight as to whether I should keep the amp.

 

[mobachi]

Hello,

I think that if I were in your shoes and was still not sure after listening a few days I return it.

Unless there somthing very wrong with the setup maybe you don't like the sound of that device.

I was in the same strugle pioneer yamaha marantz anthem ??

Finally bought the anthem mrx710. I must say it's the best buy i made as if I bought new speakerset also. Speach from tv is clear surround is if i never had a surround receiver before and in music wow for me. But it is al about what you like for sound so if still doubt return and listen to other devices and maybe you get back to the pioneer afterall

suc6

 

[Sliced Bread]

Thanks for the advice, you may be right.

ive managed to get a sound I like for films (which is surprisingly good, from where I started) but music is still pretty poor.

I'm I'm the process of having it swapped out for the yamaha. Maybe I will look at Anthem if that doesn't work out.

what type of sound do you get from it? Bright, warm, neutral etc?

 

[mobachi]

I would describe the sound as very open. As if there was a blanket over the speakers before. Much more detail. It is very clear but not to bright and when it must go low it is there and enough to shake the sofa.

 

[bigboss]

Pioneer can sound a bit clinical. I found the Yamaha to be wonderful with music. Let us know your thoughts.

 

[Sliced Bread]

Thanks Mobachi, although I've just seen the price The pioneer and yamaha are on my list as they are both heavily discounted at the moment.

 

[Sliced Bread]

Pioneer can sound a bit clinical. I found the Yamaha to be wonderful with music. Let us know your thoughts.

That sounds right up my street BB

 

[abacus]

As I mentioned in my earlier post the Pioneer has been tuned by a music studio so tends to be more analytical which doesn’t suit everybody, (Particularly if you are used to the usual Hi Fi Equipment sound rather than Pro equipment sound) hence I always say try before you buy as one size does not fit all.

I am out regularly listing to live bands and music (Plus I play myself at home) so my needs are probably a little different to most Hi Fi enthusiasts, and probably why I prefer the more analytical Pioneer over the others. (The others sound nice, but not real)

In your case I think probably the Yamaha will be your best bet unless your room acoustics are really poor, which in that case I would go for Anthem as their acoustic correction software is more advanced.

Regarding the Arcams mentioned, personally I found the previous models to be great with music, but poor with Home Cinema, whereas the new ones sound poor with both music and home cinema for some reason.

Good luck with the Yamaha and keep us apprised how you get on with it.

Bill

 

[CnoEvil]

Pioneer have always given me a headache, though I do appreciated what people see in them.

FWIW.

- If music is a priority, Arcam takes some beating.....but stick with current models to avoid trouble.

- Anthem puts in a great bid as best for movies and has a very serious EQ system

- Yamaha and Marantz are both a good compromise, with the former possibly having the best deals for old models and better EQ (than the Marantz)

My position has always been.....get the music right and everything follows.....though this does not always lead to the most "exciting" AV experience (which tends to give me a headache!).

 

[Sliced Bread]

Thanks for the posts cno & abacus.

You're both talking sense, and I can see too while people love the Pioneer, some scenes and especially vocals can sound very impressive. My sons a big dr who fan and thought the pioneer the daleks voice sounds strangely good. Strange as I've never thought of the voice as a good piece of sound engineering. But it has a weight and a way which is impressive. But I still find the sound lacks a bit of soul with music. Maybe it is a cm8 / lx87 thing.

But while it's starting to win me over for films I just really don't like the music. Music isn't my main priority, but I cannot enjoy the musical sound of the Pioneer at all. So I probably won't go down the Arcam route.

My fingers are crossed that the Yamaha is what I'm after

I should be doing the swap over tues / wed so I'll post up what I find.

 

[kikiso]

I have the less powerful and earlier model LX56 which drives my B&W 685s directly and the CM8s indirectly via my Elicit-R. I've never tried driving the CM8s directly, don't think it has the ooomph to handle them properly but the LX87 should do. The point I really wanted to make is that it has taken me the best part of 18 months to get the sound right,, but it works well for both music and Cinema. The most interesting change I made to get the sound right was to install a radiator cover over the radiator which is next to one of the speakers, and to generally move things around. The sound calibration in the Pioneer does an average job, you then have to tweak a lot as suggested by others.

However, after all this tweaking and messing about I can honestly say the sound is superb and nothing like the initial results I was getting.

I've concluded that the Pioneers are more technical to get right unless you are very lucky with your room acoustics. Sad to see the news that they are getting out of AV Amps as I certainly would be saving up to get the higher specified model as and when finances and needs allowed. If the Yamaha's are easier to calibrate then you will probably get equal results but faster. I don't know as never tried one in my house.

 

[Sliced Bread]

Yes it's not an easy one to setup. I've managed to improve on it, but it's still not there.

 

[Deleted member 2457]

Yes it's not an easy one to setup. I've managed to improve on it, but it's still not there.

Can you pay someone to set it up for you? That's what I do.

 

[Sliced Bread]

Yes it's not an easy one to setup. I've managed to improve on it, but it's still not there.

Can you pay someone to set it up for you? That's what I do.

Thanks for the suggestion, but to be honest I don’t think I would do that just in case I didn’t like the end result. I’m of the school of thought that the amplification should sound as close to what you like possible then EQ etc should be used for subtle tweaks (or ideally turned off all together, which is how I had my 905 setup).

At the moment I have improved on the initial setup by running the auto setup, then going into the EQ and de-exaggerating (is that a word?) the settings in each of the bands. So if 100hz is -4 and 20khz + 4 then I would set 100hz to -2 and 20khz to +2 (not actual settings, just an example). I found this produced a slightly more natural sound, but it is still not there.

It is odd, but I have a case where in movies, vocals sound excellent and have loads of body and the movies deep bass is impressive. But, it feels like there is a hollow in between which means that musical instruments in film scores sound recessed, like they’re in the back ground when I know them to have more grandeur than that.

Stereo music on the other hand (either phono or digital) sounds thin and flat and the vocals are really recessed. That’s regardless of whether I use pure direct, or use the EQ setup I use for films which has excellent vocals in films. With that said, separation is very good, but the overall sound just isn’t my cup of tea.

The treble is difficult as it is either a bit harsh, or a bit lacking in movies and films.

I don’t want to sound too negative because with the right film it can sound amazing. Orchestral score issues aside, Prometheus sounds the best I’ve heard it, however I was watching harry potter with my son and it just felt lacking.

It’s a very strange one, and with so many contradictory experiences I’m having trouble to get it right. I’ve arranged to change it for a Yamaha on Wednesday, so I will try that. If I don’t get on with it then I might consider returning to the Pioneer and persevering.

 

[Sliced Bread]

Much better

 

[Sliced Bread]

So the A3030 arrived yesterday.

I’ve had very little time with it last night due to other commitments so I’ve only completed minimum setup (manual distance and SP levels).

Music is a big improvement on both the LX87 and also the Onkyo 905 which surprised me as the LX87 was quite far behind the Onkyo in that respect. With movies both the LX87 and A3030 have their advantages, but I really like the sweet top end (not really mentioned that much in the review, but it is a nice top end) and the analogue like sound.

I’ll feedback after I’ve had a bit more time with it and been able to set it up properly.

 

[Sliced Bread]

OK so second day with the A3030 and oddly I found myself missing the Pioneer!

The balance of the Yamaha is really nice with music, but with films I kind of miss the power and detail that the LX87 can put into vocals. There were a few scenes in some films that just wowed me, and I’m not getting that with the Yamaha even though it’s a nice overall sound.

Difficult one.

I might do a Nick Clegg sized U-turn.

 

[ellisdj]

Maybe bit more time and effort with the Pioneer.

I dont think pioneer and odyssey is a good match. I tried it and epic.

For a cheap alternative is audioquest flip fil.

Or what i use graham slee spatia works good or similar is Telerium Q black.

You can get home demos of both slee and TQB.

 

[Sliced Bread]

Yes maybe.

I think what I'm after is a combination of the two receivers. The Pioneers way with vocals and steering with the Yamahas balance and way with music.

 

[CnoEvil]

I think what I'm after is a combination of the two receivers. The Pioneers way with vocals and steering with the Yamahas balance and way with music.

Maybe try Anthem.

 

[bigboss]

I think what I'm after is a combination of the two receivers. The Pioneers way with vocals and steering with the Yamahas balance and way with music.

Maybe try Anthem.

Exactly my thoughts!