Ortofon Rondo Bronze or ?

Lost Angeles

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I’ve had a good few weeks on E bay with the Dino 2 and the cheapest of the 4 Illustrious arms that OL sold so I now need a cartridge.
My shortlist is Ortofon Rondo Bronze, 2M black or Cadenza Red although I did fancy a WHF recommended Benz Micro L2 wood which was in the September 2010 issue at £670 but I can only find it at over £900. Is there anything else I should consider and I am not buying secondhand on this.
I have never had a MC and I have a slight concern as I get occasional crud build up at the moment which I remove with the small Ortofon stylus brush. Will I have any problems cleaning a MC stylus with this.
 

audioaffair

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There was a price change some months back on this range so its possible the review was before this. At this price, you could also consider the Cartridge Man Music Maker III cartridge. The Ortofon has quite a forward, detailed sound and the Music Maker III is a little warmer by comparison. What sort of music do you tend to listen to most? One benefit of the Music Maker III is that its Moving Iron, which is designed to offer the sonic benefits of an MC with the standard higher level output of a MM.
 
A

Anonymous

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All Grados are moving iron, as are many Ortofons.

Personally I like the Ortofons, though they can sound a bit clinical. Bear in mind the compliance of the arm and the cartridge needs to be taken into consideration.

Edit: in fact, according to my research, all non-MC Ortofons are MI and have been for some time.
 

gbhsi1

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Grottyash:
All Grados are moving iron, as are many Ortofons.

Personally I like the Ortofons, though they can sound a bit clinical. Bear in mind the compliance of the arm and the cartridge needs to be taken into consideration.

Edit: in fact, according to my research, all non-MC Ortofons are MI and have been for some time.
the 2m range is moving magnet and not iron...am I missing something here?
 
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Anonymous

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Good question! You'll see this is a subject of much interest on some of the vinyl forums. Ortofon say they're MM, but others have examined the cartridges closely and thought otherwise.

Probably doesn't matter as long as they sound good.
 

gbhsi1

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Grottyash:
Good question! You'll see this is a subject of much interest on some of the vinyl forums. Ortofon say they're MM, but others have examined the cartridges closely and thought otherwise.

Probably doesn't matter as long as they sound good.
Yes in the end that is all that matters :) still an interesting topic as why manufacturers would call their ranges of cartridges MM instead of MI and visa versa.
 

Lost Angeles

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audioaffair:There was a price change some months back on this range so its possible the review was before this. At this price, you could also consider the Cartridge Man Music Maker III cartridge. The Ortofon has quite a forward, detailed sound and the Music Maker III is a little warmer by comparison. What sort of music do you tend to listen to most? One benefit of the Music Maker III is that its Moving Iron, which is designed to offer the sonic benefits of an MC with the standard higher level output of a MM.

I listen to 70s rock, Zep,Purple,Wishbone Ash,Thin Lizzy etc etc through to Dire Straits, Marillion, Toto, Fleetwood Mac, Lindisfarne, Cat Stevens and Steely Dan. The only solo female vocal I have is Alison Moyet and the only present day artist LPs I would buy would Joe Bonamassa. Limited taste really.
I had thought about the Cartridge Man as OL do recommend that but I fancied trying an MC.
 

Henley

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Just to clarify, the Ortofon models are Moving Magnet. A small magnet is attached to the end of the cantilever, hence the term moving magnet!

Lost Angeles, looking at your musical preference, I would suggest going for the Cadenza Red. All the Red models are tailored to have a bit more emotion and a touch of colour that really suits Rock.
 

Henley

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Grottyash:
Good question! You'll see this is a subject of much interest on some of the vinyl forums. Ortofon say they're MM, but others have examined the cartridges closely and thought otherwise.

Probably doesn't matter as long as they sound good.

Ortofon are probably the oldest and largest cartridge manufacturer in the world with R&D facilities that most others can only dream of. With respect to the "others" you mention, I think Ortofon may know what they are doing. :)
 
A

Anonymous

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Henley:Just to clarify, the Ortofon models are Moving Magnet. A small magnet is attached to the end of the cantilever, hence the term moving magnet! Lost Angeles, looking at your musical preference, I would suggest going for the Cadenza Red. All the Red models are tailored to have a bit more emotion and a touch of colour that really suits Rock.I'm certain Ortofon know what they're doing and don't recollect saying otherwise. I've used several of Ortofon's cartridges over the years and am using one of their p-mounts now. Their VMS range amongst others was sold as moving iron, and Ortofon based many of their later designs on it.

That wasn't really the point: moving iron cartridges are readily available and the one cited by audio affair is by no means the only one out there. Whether it produces the benefits to the sound as mentioned, is, however, moot.
 

Henley

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Sorry but we need to be factually accurate. VMS were moving magnet. "Variable Magnetic Shunt" and all literature refers to moving magnet, which they were. We have copies of all brochures dating back to pre 1950 and have verified this.
 
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But see the definition of VMS:

the cantilever in a VMS cartridge can be made extremely light because it is not weighed down by a magnet. Here, the magnetic field emanates from a fixed ring magnet that encircles the cantilever, the rearmost part of which consists of a thin-walled armature of magnetic conducting material. When the cantilever is set in motion, the armature short-circuits part of the magnetic field, and a voltage is generated in the coils. The VMS principle not only makes it possible to reduce the mass of the cantilever to an absolute minimum, but the construction is such that the weight of the entire cartridge can be reduced making the VMS cartridge suitable for use with a large number of tonearms. The special construction of the VMS principle means that the magnetic operating point in the cartridge may be placed at the origin of the induction curve, where there is no risk of non-linearity that can lead to distortion. The VMS principle has made it possible to produce Low Mass cartridges with a weight of only 1.5 grams.

Reference here: http://www.speakerbits.com/speaker-repairs/about-cartridges-principle-of-operation/article-23.aspx

That sounds remarkably similar to the moving iron principle (taken, inevitably, from wikipedia):

Moving iron and induced magnet types (ADC being a well known example) which have the magnet fixed and move a piece of iron or other ferrous alloy in the field of the magnet to produce the signal within the fixed coils.
 

Lost Angeles

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Henley:Just to clarify, the Ortofon models are Moving Magnet. A small magnet is attached to the end of the cantilever, hence the term moving magnet! Lost Angeles, looking at your musical preference, I would suggest going for the Cadenza Red. All the Red models are tailored to have a bit more emotion and a touch of colour that really suits Rock.

Thank you for your reply.
Can you clarify what you mean by Red models, as the Red models are usually the bottom of the range do you mean the Cadenza Red would be more suited to my music taste than a Cadenza Blue or a Rondo Red more suitable than a Rondo Bronze.
I ask this as a lot of people on here when a stylus needed replacing have replaced a 2M Red stylus with a Blue and wondered long term whether when I need a stylus replacing it would be possible to replace Cadenza Red (if I buy one) with a Blue. I know that may be 2 years away but it's nice to know if it's possible and worth it.
I am correct in saying that the Cadenza Red is a Moving Coil?
 
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the record spot

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At the price range you're looking, many folk have commented on how good the Ortofon Kontrapunkt B catridge is - Moving Coil and around £700 I think...? Long established and very well reviewed.
 

Henley

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Grotty ash, there's no point in continuing this argument and I really can't be bothered. VMS is a system designed by Ortofon, I think they may have a better idea than others.

LA - Yes, I am referring to all Red models. (2M, Rondo, Cadenza) are all designed to bit more emotional and slightly coloured which really suit Rock. The 2M is slightly different where the extra information, gained by the better stylus profile, is such an improvement that it outweighs any other changes in characteristic. (Oh and yes, the Cadenza is a moving coil).
 

audioaffair

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Henley have explained it much better than I could! For the money and for what you're after, there are few cartridges that can match the Cadenza Red. It's worth having a listen before you buy if you can arrange this.
 
A

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Henley:Grotty ash, there's no point in continuing this argument and I really can't be bothered. VMS is a system designed by Ortofon, I think they may have a better idea than others.Not an argument at all, and I'm sorry you thought that, it's a topic which I find interesting, that's all. I'll contact Ortofon to-morrow and see what they say.
 

Lost Angeles

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the record spot:At the price range you're looking, many folk have commented on how good the Ortofon Kontrapunkt B catridge is - Moving Coil and around £700 I think...? Long established and very well reviewed.

The Kontrapunkt range have been replaced by the Rondo Bronze and Cadenza Range.
The Cadenza Red looks like where my money be spent.
 

Andro78

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Hey LA

I know this is an old lead. But I see you decided on the Cadenza Red. I am currently looking for for a new cart for my P5. The Candenza Red along with Rondo Bronze or Blue is in the consideration.

How does it sound and would you find it fit for playing mainly Indiestuff like Bon Iver, Fleet Foxes, Talk talk & Ray Lamontagne sort of thing? But occasionally also The Kills, The Black Keys and White Stripes type of music.

I would really appreciate if you would share your thoughts on the subject

Thank you in advance :)

/ Andro
 

Lost Angeles

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I’ve not played any vinyl for three weeks so I’m suffering from vinyl withdrawal symptoms and have not played or heard any of what you’ve listed as I mainly play 70s rock.
I bought the Cadenza Red as I got a good price on it at the time and on the advice that was given on here. I did not demo anything so I have nothing to reference against.
I have no complaints as it seems to me to fit in well with my system. The bass is tight, controlled and easy to follow, nowhere near as deep (or loose) as my CD192 but this suits me. The treble is also nicely controlled and I can’t think of anything I’ve played that I thought was harsh and have had to take off. I also find that it is easy to pick out what’ s going on in the background, I play a lot of stuff with guitar solos in and I find recently that instead of listening to the guitar I’m following what’s else is happening, something I never used to do. Probably its strongest point is it’s midrange.
It could be my system balances out what some reviews have said is a lively cartridge. My speakers are currently B&W 684s. PM1 demo soon.
Rega do their own MC although not cheap and Origin Live recommend Goldrings for use on Rega arms.
Will you need to fit spacers etc. if you fit something other than a Rega cart? This is a problem I haven’t had as my arm has ¾” of VTA adjustment
 

Andro78

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I am pretty sure that I will need spacers. The downdraw with Rega. Have been looking into some Goldring carts, 2500 and Elite. But alot of the dealers here in Denmark are doing Ortofon. So I decided to investigate what the fuzz was about. Ortofon being a native brand and all. But Ortofon should be quite kean on digging out detail. That is also a criteria, since I also listen to Jazz. Difficult to find a cart that masters that different styles I know. But quess I have to give it try, right?

Quess in the end, I will let my dealer decide like you. If any good offers is on at the moment. :)
 

CJSF

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Andro78 said:
I am pretty sure that I will need spacers. The downdraw with Rega. Have been looking into some Goldring carts, 2500 and Elite. But alot of the dealers here in Denmark are doing Ortofon. So I decided to investigate what the fuzz was about. Ortofon being a native brand and all. But Ortofon should be quite kean on digging out detail. That is also a criteria, since I also listen to Jazz. Difficult to find a cart that masters that different styles I know. But quess I have to give it try, right?

Quess in the end, I will let my dealer decide like you. If any good offers is on at the moment. :)

Rega cartridges are 15mm most others are 18mm or more. The sophisticated stylus prophiles you are looking at will show poor VTA. You are going to require a minimum of 2mm. Rega make a 2mm shim. Rega play down VTA as a non critical adjustment . . . !!! IMHO, it needs carfull consideration at the level you are looking at.

CJSF
 

Lost Angeles

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The thing about VTA though is that you have probably got albums of 3 different thicknesses so VTA cannot be perfect on 2 of these, you have to compromise.
I would presume Rega set there VTA up for standard thickness albums which would mean the back end is slightly high for thin ones RCA Victor etc. and it will be low for 180g thick ones.
 

Andro78

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CJSF, I want to be sure, that I understand your post correctly.

You think the adjustment that will need to be made, would compromise the performance of the cart, or?

Andro
 

CJSF

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Andro78 said:
CJSF, I want to be sure, that I understand your post correctly.

You think the adjustment that will need to be made, would compromise the performance of the cart, or?

Andro

Having been there with shims, varying thickness records and different height cartridges . . . VTA is a real mish-mash. Some say the arm should be a fraction high at the back, some, the opposite with a fraction low, then again there are the arm horizontal brigade.

The way I see it . . . and hear it! On my modified P5, and 18mm high cartridge, a 2mm shim under the Rega 700 tone arm works for me, ie., . . . its set according to Rega geometry for 17mm high. Visually my 18mm cartridge runs parallel to the surface of a standard record, it sounds right, if I put an extra 1 or 2mm of shims in, it starts to get a little thin/bright sounding, conversely, remove the shims altogether, becomes thick and lifeless.

The crux is, Rega have made a fixed VTA arm, they say its OK as it is no VTA rquired . . . then they would wouldn’t they? VTA can be critical, depends on how critically you listen? To muddy the water even more, it depends on the way the cutting lathe was set originally and at what angle the cartridge stylus is set :wall:

Its all about listening and adjusting, VTA adjustment being a pain on most Rega arms!

VTA, stylus pressure and bias seem to run hand in glove, get the stylus pressure wrong, (recomended presure in my experiance, is only a guide) that throws the sound off, then you are wondering, why is it sounding thick and heavy or thin and whispy? . . . ask the question, 'is it too much or not enought down force? . . . could it be the VTA is low, get these right and there is then a sweet spot for the bias to be found. It all goes round and round and . . . If the VTA and down force are not right, you might even reject a perfectly good cartridge at audition? Hence you have to tweak and play to find the sweet spots, not a five minuet job.

As you can see, there are frustrating factors, I can understand why many join the Rega way of thinking . . . to my mind its 'that will do' . . . it 'does not do' for me.

CJSF
 

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