Nu Force HP-800 fit the bill . . . !

CJSF

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The past couple of week has been busy to say the least . . . ! Ronded off on thursday with the PC going on the blink, panic to coaxe the old laptop to run with programs it was never designed for, still cant get the email to work:doh: Typing this, its displays is two or three letters behind my fingers! Ho-hum, Friday was a 'chill' day, go look at some headphones, drive 100 miles to the nearest shop with quality phones on display to listen to.

Divine Audio provided a listening experiance, shifted round one of its studios so that we could sit in comfort, fresh cups of coffee, we had the run of the shop, left to our own devices, no presure, in a sea of headphones to try for as much as we liked.

The criteria, £100-£200, each pair, required two pairs, me and Hazel my partner, Hazel is disabled and has a small head, creating problems? Started with Grado 80i then the 125,dipped into Sennhizer, tried a couple of Audio Technica, including the AT 500x . . . OK, the 125's were top of Hazels list for fit, we both agreed the sound was good but a little analitical for our tast, towards cold at the top end?

About to take our leave with a 'think about it Chris, thanks for your time'. By this time the twin output headphone amp we had taken with us was causing problems on one output? . . . Chris poped in just as we were on the point, 'what about these' he said, waving a pair of NU-Fource HP-800? . . . 'They were deliverd new this morning, I have no idea of the correct price, I've not even listened to them, they are that new'. OK, one output is working so befor we go. I listened for no more than a minute, passed them to Hazel, she gives the thumbs up. Explained to Chris we were not happy with our amp, no probs, grabed one from the shop says he.

To cut the story, we were there another hour, playing musical headphones, the fit for us both was perfect. Sound was to our liking, KO Chris, how much . . . :? We continued listening, Chris had to look out the paperwork, £119, he came back with.

Sold to the lady and gent wearing the giant ear muffs! . . .

100 mile drive home, hard for me these days. Been listening all afternoon, after sorting the very old 'original' Pro-ject Headphone amp, it had come cheap from a heavy smokers house, stunk of nicotine! Anticipating the worst, I striped it, could find nothing, so, washed the case and carfully with cotton buds cleaned the inrards, phonos and jacks with iso-propolen.

So far so good, I have no idea about headphones, the NU Force HP800 are closed back, aluminium alloy casting, we chose on sound and cumfort alone. I am an an ex audiophile, dating back to the 70's/80's, prefering valve amplifiers, studio monitor speakers, overblown base is not my thing, strong powerful tunefull base and musicality is prefered. This is what the HP800 deliver, a suprising soundstage considering their closed back, they fit the voicing we like perfectly. Infact, as we run them, 3 hours so far, they are mellowing, but retain detail, base is very tight, extended and detailed.

Something I noticed this afternoon, listening to a favourit track, removed the phones, turned up the volume on the PMC speakers, the sound 'voicing' was almost identical. Image and air was better on speaker, but this is only a £120 pair of phones. Sparked the thought, how would a quality, high end, audiophile pair of open backs sound, £500 + ?

So as a review, perhaps the above does not tell you much? However, what I am trying to convey, at £120, they fitted out budget, my finicky audiophile musical apreciation, to me they are valuse for money+++.

CJSF
 

CJSF

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Update on the above . . . its now 7.45pm, the HP-800's have been running almost continuasly since 2 o'clock. There is a marked improvement in the sound stage, much more space being presented, the vocal articulation, good as it was has improved, much smother. In fact, there is a much smoother air over all, I'm impressed.

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CJSF

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chebby said:

Hay Chebby, you were looking for phones a while back, did you get sorted?

These phones are for our Horlicks hour, volume no problem, was getting a concience about the neighbours. So, doubt I will be worrying about a new headamp? I get the idea the 'old' Pro-Ject MK1? (flutes on the outside) is not half bad. Compared with the Musical Fidelity M1 that we used at the end of our session, the Pro-Ject did OK . . . IMHO

. . . 'Horlicks hour' approches . . . CJSF
 

chebby

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CJSF said:
Hay Chebby, you were looking for phones a while back, did you get sorted?

Gave up looking for anything decent. I'd hardly ever use them.

Bought four pairs of Sennheiser PX100-IIs recently for everyone to use with their PCs/laptops/iPhones when necessary.

They sound fine for casual/occasional use. (I am not a keen headphone user anyway.)

Comfy, clear, light and far more likely to last than the flimsy Grados we used to have. Sound very decent on iPhone or laptop.

My old Sennheiser HD-595s were heavy and made my ears too hot (but they were strong and sounded great until the temperature rose) and the Grados SR60is just used to spontaneously fall apart - even with careful use - because they are cheaply built American tat.

The black plastic bits seem to perish under the force of just looking at them! Probably made from recycled plastic cups and carrier bags. Who knows? Sounded excellent during the hours they stayed in one piece though :)
 

CJSF

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Just had an hour with my vinyl source . . . what sounds great on speaker dont sound so special on headphone, all the inpefections can be heard, as well as the not so good sound stage. The peformance is going on in the head . . . where as on speaker, one is sitting in the first two or three rows which we prefer. I can live with the in head image on CD, the purity of sound seems to suit phones, but not vinyl, Hazel is of a like mind. We were both suprised at this, Hazel came up with this without prompting from me, I know she has a good pair of ears but her perception is much better than I had given hear credit for.

So, where do we go from here? I'm thinking headphones will be used sparingley at CJSF towers and mostly with CD, speakers rule OK?

CJSF
 

dalethorn

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CJSF said:
Just had an hour with my vinyl source . . . what sounds great on speaker dont sound so special on headphone, all the inpefections can be heard.....So, where do we go from here? I'm thinking headphones will be used sparingley at CJSF towers and mostly with CD, speakers rule OK? CJSF

Very, very few headphones have both good detail and proper balance, so that peaks don't irritate and suckouts rob you of detail.

Some new background: Comparing my Apple Earpods (£24) with Dirac player (free) to the Sennheiser IE800 IEM (£600), the Earpods/Dirac have a flatter (i.e. better) freq. response or signature, but if you listen very closely to the details, the IE800 has a richer more complete presentation of harmonic content. But you need to be listening in a quiet place and concentrating on the music, not reading the papers etc. to hear the differences clearly.

So, what a critical or sophisticated listener needs with something as intimate as a headphone is: Very smooth sound, good balance, good detail. I've found that extra warmth or a modest bass increase is OK as long as it doesn't intrude on the mids or otherwise distract from the sound. But the highs are another matter entirely. That's where the irritations occur. Tics and pops, surface noise, sibilants. If you get the highs exactly right so they aren't excessive at any frequency, you may find the sound very satisfactory.
 

CJSF

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dalethorn said:
CJSF said:
Just had an hour with my vinyl source . . . what sounds great on speaker dont sound so special on headphone, all the inpefections can be heard.....So, where do we go from here? I'm thinking headphones will be used sparingley at CJSF towers and mostly with CD, speakers rule OK? CJSF

Very, very few headphones have both good detail and proper balance, so that peaks don't irritate and suckouts rob you of detail.

Some new background: Comparing my Apple Earpods (£24) with Dirac player (free) to the Sennheiser IE800 IEM (£600), the Earpods/Dirac have a flatter (i.e. better) freq. response or signature, but if you listen very closely to the details, the IE800 has a richer more complete presentation of harmonic content. But you need to be listening in a quiet place and concentrating on the music, not reading the papers etc. to hear the differences clearly.

So, what a critical or sophisticated listener needs with something as intimate as a headphone is: Very smooth sound, good balance, good detail. I've found that extra warmth or a modest bass increase is OK as long as it doesn't intrude on the mids or otherwise distract from the sound. But the highs are another matter entirely. That's where the irritations occur. Tics and pops, surface noise, sibilants. If you get the highs exactly right so they aren't excessive at any frequency, you may find the sound very satisfactory.

Whatever the problem is, I will be talking to my supplier very seriously on Monday, in terms of not suitable for my purpose . . . ? We listen a lot to vinyl, not even thinking there would be such a differance, makes it almost a pointless exercise owning headphones, obviously got it wrong. May be why some one recomended a pair of German Maestro GMP 8.35D they have a majour tail off after 10kh . . . ho-hum
smiley-frown.gif


CJSF
 

dalethorn

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CJSF said:
someone recomended a pair of German Maestro GMP 8.35D they have a majour tail off after 10kh . . . ho-hum
smiley-frown.gif
CJSF

Any rolloff above 10 khz would be extremely minor compared to what happens below 10 khz. The 8.35D is good, but far from smooth enough to use with less-than-perfect sources.
 

CJSF

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OK, sleep over, nice cuppa, re evaluate . . . sound was OK with CD (as aditioned) but a majour dissapointment with vinyl (not aditioned). It was like listening to a sophisticated old 78 shalac recording . . . hear non of this when playing through my fairly reasonable hifi system, not even when I sit at my desk which is sighted between the pair of PMC studio monitor speakers. In fact, I use this positon to criticaly evaluate the finner detail when I am making changes or adjustments to the turntable, cartridge or system as a whole.

The cartridge signal is first processed through an indipendant Icon valve phone stage, then routed into a passive distibution type preamp and finaly out of the 'tape out' direct to the Pro-ject headphone amp. I accept that the Pro-ject head amp may be a 'weak link' . . . but it cant ad spacific '78 type' turntable/stylus sounds.

Therefore, is the main valve power amp filtering these befor they get to the speakers, do the speakers not react to these sounds? Is the sensitivity of the headamp/headphones reacting to the TT noise.

Next question, are modern headphones designed around 'digital play back', where there is no secodary back ground noise to deal with?

Obviously begging the question, where next or, does one simply have to accept, analoguge sound is noisey and head phones excentuate this?

I have gon back through the threads and picked out the recomendations, some of which we did try.

A secondary issue that has raised its head for both of us at home longer listening, closed back head phones seem to give a mild clostrophobic, cut off sensation. This, plus the sound stage, that was not as good as one might have liked even after the 4 or 5 hours run in. Can these issues be improved on with semi and full open back head phones. The 'open back x 2' problem did not seem to be a trouble when auditioning, listening to the same track at the same time, which would always be the case.

Its back to the drawing board, with a fresh sheet of paper? One has also considered a couple of cheap pairs of headphones, as, unless the analogue noise issue can be resolved somehow, headphone use will be very limited at CJS towers? . . . neighbours might have to suffer ;)

With this fresh outlook, what are the sugestions? . . . Thank you, CJSF
 

dalethorn

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I've found with most good headphones that the open back types don't offer a big step up in being less claustrophobic or more spacious, but you seem to find small differences important, so yes, open back is probably necessary. The big difference with the vinyl playback involves several factors that can't be separated, but one of those, the directness of headphone sound, does make a difference. Probably the unevenness of the highs in your headphone are exaggerating the vinyl issues. Your room absorbs much of that. Some headphones benefit from extra damping of 'magic' foam inserts with acoustic properties made for headphones, such as what Shure issues with their headphones.

Other than modification, based on your posts so far, you are not going to be satsfied with any ordinary headphone. They will either be too bright, too dull, or have high frequency raggedness that will aggravate vinyl sounds.
 

chebby

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Back when I only used LPs (or FM radio) as primary sources I didn't get many problems with noise when listening with headphones.

My LPs were all bought new (I know that's mostly impossible nowadays) and properly looked after and kept clean. There were only a few 'dogs' where the recordings themselves were intolerable via headphones, but that's the same with CD because it's a 'gift' from the original engineer that only a re-mastering and re-pressing may alleviate.

I suggest investing in a good record cleaner if headphone listening is going to be a big thing in future and take more care when choosing second-hand LPs to get as near pristine examples as possible.

A lot of my headphone listening (back in the day) used to be from recordings I had made from my LPs, so it's possible that the Dolby process removed some of the background groove noise or supressed it.

Given that I didn't have a CD player (until about 2002) then it's possible that - because I had nothing to compare it with - LP listening via headphones was far more tolerable than I'd find it now.
 

CJSF

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chebby said:
Back when I only used LPs (or FM radio) as primary sources I didn't get many problems with noise when listening with headphones.

My LPs were all bought new (I know that's mostly impossible nowadays) and properly looked after and kept clean. There were only a few 'dogs' where the recordings themselves were intolerable via headphones, but that's the same with CD because it's a 'gift' from the original engineer that only a re-mastering and re-pressing may alleviate.

I suggest investing in a good record cleaner if headphone listening is going to be a big thing in future and take more care when choosing second-hand LPs to get as near pristine examples as possible.

A lot of my headphone listening (back in the day) used to be from recordings I had made from my LPs, so it's possible that the Dolby process removed some of the background groove noise or supressed it.

Given that I didn't have a CD player (until about 2002) then it's possible that - because I had nothing to compare it with - LP listening via headphones was far more tolerable than I'd find it now.

Hi Chebby,

If only that was the case, the first LP I chose last night was Tom Waits 'The Heart of Saturday Night', bought new just befor Christmas, 180g pressing, sound great through the speakers, a couple of tracks have become standard referance for me. I then went to the older records pre 1990, notably Carol Kidd 'All my Tomorrows', bought new by me mid eighties.

You are right about the record cleaner, however I am a fussy begger as you know, most of my collection is still in pristine condition, very few clicks and pops, but they would benefit from a 'wash'.

Be that as it may, clicks and pops I can live with, we are talkingTT noise and record noise, so obvious through the phones compared with the speakers, for me it is intolerable. If my speaker presentation sounded like this, I would give up 'analogue hifi' as a lost cause.

So we have: TT/record/speakers, great analogue hifi sound that we throughly enjoy, TT/record/NuForce headphones, its like listening to a 1950's record player! . . . ?dont for get the 'we', its not me being perdantic, Hazel is far less fussy and she was on it befor me!

I'm now trying to get my head around what headphones are doing? . . . rolling off above 10kh, there seems to be frequancy kicks in there somewhere, which I suspect, is what I am suffering from? Seems users are messing with the sound via 'apps type graphic equalisers'? As the adiophile that I obviously still am, such treatment is sacralige? Then there is this closed in, mild clostrophobic feeling, again picked up by Hazel first, I was still thinking about it! She is sharp on the hifi music presentation front!

I realy need some answers or at least, informed pointers . . . . ? :wall:

O'boy . . . :? CJSF
 

dalethorn

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What a nice photo. I love the look of a nice 'table and arm, and an LP on play. I need to get a reliable servant to file my LPs, clean them, de-static them - all those chores. I just want to lower the arm myself and experience the palpable weight of LP tones that digital gets close to but never quite duplicates. Or maybe I'm just dreaming of something that never was? I'll never be rich enough to know for sure.
 

CJSF

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dalethorn said:
What a nice photo. I love the look of a nice 'table and arm, and an LP on play. I need to get a reliable servant to file my LPs, clean them, de-static them - all those chores. I just want to lower the arm myself and experience the palpable weight of LP tones that digital gets close to but never quite duplicates. Or maybe I'm just dreaming of something that never was? I'll never be rich enough to know for sure.

Obviously you dont have the answers to the problems I pose.
 

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dalethorn said:
CJSF said:
Obviously you dont have the answers to the problems I pose.

There are people who will get you the answers you need, when you pay them. The rest of us work for free.

Ah filthy lucka . . . perhaps that answer explains your posts . . . I'll work it out in the end, I usualy do . . . :type:

CJSF
 

dalethorn

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CJSF said:
Ah filthy lucka . . . perhaps that answer explains your posts . . . I'll work it out in the end, I usualy do . . .

Since you're posting long demands for answers here, you might want to explain why other people who are very knowlegeable will want to step in and spend much time grappling with your questions. Just in case there's a reason I missed.
 

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dalethorn said:
CJSF said:
Ah filthy lucka . . . perhaps that answer explains your posts . . . I'll work it out in the end, I usualy do . . .

Since you're posting long demands for answers here, you might want to explain why other people who are very knowlegeable will want to step in and spend much time grappling with your questions. Just in case there's a reason I missed.

Demands? . . . your last two postes tells me all I need to know.

There you go short and to the point.

CJSF
 

dalethorn

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CJSF said:
Demands? . . . your last two postes tells me all I need to know. There you go short and to the point. CJSF

You don't have to convince me of anything. You just have to convince all those other volunteers to help you. Good luck.
 

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dalethorn said:
CJSF said:
Demands? . . . your last two postes tells me all I need to know. There you go short and to the point. CJSF

You don't have to convince me of anything. You just have to convince all those other volunteers to help you. Good luck.

. . . . 'convince'? . . . If thats the way you look at it, we ar all volunteers? I've tried to do my fair share in the past, been 'around' for a while . . .

As I said I read all I need to know.

CJSF
 

chebby

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dalethorn said:
CJSF said:
Ah filthy lucka . . . perhaps that answer explains your posts . . . I'll work it out in the end, I usualy do . . .

Since you're posting long demands for answers here, you might want to explain why other people who are very knowlegeable will want to step in and spend much time grappling with your questions. Just in case there's a reason I missed.

I have just come across your website and headphone reviews Dale.

I mentioned earlier that I 'gave up' on more expensive headphones (like my old HD595s and the shoddy SR60is) and took advantage of a special offer in John Lewis to buy four pairs of Sennheiser PX100 IIs for everyone in the house - including me - to use at their computers/laptops/iThings.

I have been really pleased with them so far. Suprisingly they have proved to be far less flimsy than the old PX100s AND the SR60is! (Reliability tested by two daughters, me and my wife since October with no problems at all so far.)

So I couldn't resist reading your review of them. Given that ours cost £27.99 a pair (instead of the £44.95 places like Dixons were charging at the time) then I think we did well.

I am going to read a few more of your reviews.
 

chebby

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CJSF said:
chebby said:

Dont you wish you still had it Chebby, bit of 'green' creeping in?

I do still have it. I only bought it recently. It's just a bit of fun. (Inspired by feedback about it from 'moon' in that forum link I posted.)

I guess that's what I like about my system overall. It's fun. It's flexible. It sounds great. It doesn't dominate the room - or my life - or send me batting off around the country trying to find just the right little tweak to get some elusive, nth degree, pico scintilla of dubious 'improvement'. It doesn't make me have to "talk to my supplier very seriously" after wasted 200 mile round trips.

Since 2007, two years was about my limit before I got bored with a system. I am approaching two years (and a bonus in March*) with this system and I still love it. For the first time in six years I don't want to change anything or make any additions.

Far from being green/envious about your turntable or your system. The sheer time, anguish, heartache, money (and anger) your peregrinations have caused you over the last year or so have actually helped cure any 'itch' to get back to vinyl I may have had.

I should thank you for that.

Thank you.

* A dangerous time of year for 'upgraditis'.
 

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