New router improves sound but .....

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aliEnRIK

New member
Aug 27, 2008
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The_Lhc said:
aliEnRIK said:
The_Lhc said:
THERE IS NO JITTER IN NETWORK TRAFFIC! Jitter is a digital audio phenomenon, networks don't carry audio, they carry data!
There is jitter in everything digital (data in this case - which you wrongly say isnt susceptible to jitter). Google 'pingtest' to see if your online 'data' has jitter levels (hint - it does)
Yes but it doesn't bear any relationship to audio jitter, they're completely different things.
You stated 'Jitter is a digital audio phenomenon', implying data doesnt have jitter issues. Im stating jitter is present in everything digital (At least at this time, im sure jitter will be completely eliminated in the future in most things digital)
 

The_Lhc

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Oct 16, 2008
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aliEnRIK said:
The_Lhc said:
aliEnRIK said:
The_Lhc said:
In computer networking packet delay variation (PDV) is the difference in end-to-end delay between selected packets in a flow with any lost packets being ignored. The effect is sometimes, incorrectly, referred to as jitter.
DELAY is the time taken 'point ot point' in a network

JITTER is the 'variation' in the delay
Err, yes, that's what that says?
Thats not how I read what you put

Youve stated 'packet delay' is wrongly referred to as jitter (Which is possible in some cases - that isnt in dispute)
Two points, what's quoted above is not my words, that's direct from wikipedia, secondly, it quite clearly says (it's even in bold!) "packet delay VARIATION".

Thus everyone reading (Well me certainly) believes youve stated that jitter doesnt exist (it does)
The term "jitter", according to the article, is incorrect when referring to PDV. PDV exists but it shouldn't, apparently, be called "jitter". That's what wikipedia says. Either way it doesn't matter what you call it, it has nothing to do with audio jitter, which is what the other geezer was implying.
 

The_Lhc

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Oct 16, 2008
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aliEnRIK said:
The_Lhc said:
aliEnRIK said:
The_Lhc said:
THERE IS NO JITTER IN NETWORK TRAFFIC! Jitter is a digital audio phenomenon, networks don't carry audio, they carry data!
There is jitter in everything digital (data in this case - which you wrongly say isnt susceptible to jitter). Google 'pingtest' to see if your online 'data' has jitter levels (hint - it does)
Yes but it doesn't bear any relationship to audio jitter, they're completely different things.
You stated 'Jitter is a digital audio phenomenon', implying data doesnt have jitter issues.
At the risk of repeating myself, if you believe that article it doesn't, as jitter is not the correct term for PDV.

Im stating jitter is present in everything digital (At least at this time, im sure jitter will be completely eliminated in the future in most things digital)
Ok, but network "jitter" has nothing to do with audio jitter, that was the point I was answering with those extracts.
 
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Anonymous

Guest
Incase it helps, jitter & PDV are two names for the same thing. Of course one is more accurate than the other, just as mangifera indica is arguably more accurate than mango. (excuse the extreme example :))

However, the underlying point i guess was missed, which is, the quality of the underlying wired or wireless media and the involved hardware transmitting/receiving the streams does matter.

If the router buffers the data for too long for "network jitter"/PDV correction, it delays the supply of bit streams to the DAC resulting in "Audio Jitter". On the other hand, if the router doensn't buffer the data and passes the bit stream with missed bits, it results in lost audio information. In either case, it is relevant.
 

The_Lhc

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Oct 16, 2008
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aliEnRIK said:
I give up
Why? I don't think we're actually disagreeing about anything, other than whether PDV should be called "jitter" or not, which isn't that relevant to the topic at hand.
 

The_Lhc

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Oct 16, 2008
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indising said:
Incase it helps, jitter & PDV are two names for the same thing.
Am I missing something? That's EXACTLY what the article I quoted says, it just happens to say that the term "jitter" in that context is incorrect.

However, the underlying point i guess was missed, which is, the quality of the underlying wired or wireless media and the involved hardware transmitting/receiving the streams does matter.

If the router buffers the data for too long for "network jitter"/PDV correction, it delays the supply of bit streams to the DAC resulting in "Audio Jitter". On the other hand, if the router doensn't buffer the data and passes the bit stream with missed bits, it results in lost audio information. In either case, it is relevant.
The data doesn't go directly from the router to a DAC, it goes via a streaming client (even if that client is built into a DAC, like the wireless rDAC, either way it's not the same as, for example, an optical connection into a DAC). That client will have its own input buffer. But yes if the network is so painfully slow it can't keep up there will be issues, but, unless you're trying to stream uncompressed or very high bit-rate audio or you have such bad wireless interference that your speed drops hugely, that's unlikely to be the case. Either way the issues will be far more fundamental than a reduction in the soundstage, you'd be experiencing complete drop outs of the audio.
 

AL13N

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Nov 29, 2009
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Do the counterarguments to The-Lhc really have any bearing on the perceived quality of reproduced audio? (Let's not forget that was the conclusion of the original post).
 

AL13N

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Nov 29, 2009
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The_Lhc said:
Either way the issues will be far more fundamental than a reduction in the soundstage, you'd be experiencing complete drop outs of the audio.
Another excellent point.

To give an example, if the same happened when streaming a 1080p video it would not be reduced to 720p or 480p. The video would pause for buffering.
 
A

Anonymous

Guest
Good network infrastructure is still important for quality listening experience. Hard to comment on the specific issues, as it might be very subjective. One might be able to get away with it if using compressed files mainly coz SQ might not be a priority for them and expectations might be very low...but hey, this is a hifi forum right? do we even discussed compressed low bit-rate stuff? :)

Referring to the OP experience,... not really knowledgable enough to comment on what contributes to soundstage...if regular lost bits account to poor soundstage, then it might, else it might not.
 
A

Anonymous

Guest
The_lhc is right and knows what he is talking about. Remember that it's the clock used at both ends in streaming audio that can cause jitter, PDV is soething totally different.

If you seriously think that changing the router, other than dropouts caused by packet loss, can affect the sound quality, then, to put it bluntly, you have a slim understanding of how digital and networks operate. Sorry, but there it is.

Time to put an end to this increasingly pointless thread, if you ask me.
 

Pedro2

Well-known member
Nov 29, 2010
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Oo err!!

Didn't expect to have created such a fuss or should I say jitter about a new router. Got to say folks, that much as I respect your knowledge of such technical matters, I am a relative novice here and can only go on what my ears are telling me. From information gleaned from various sources over the last few years, I have managed to gradually improve the sound of my system. In a nutshell, these improvements have been brought about by the following:

1) Got my squeezebox receiver modified (new clock + other bits that Brent at Fidelity Audio replaces). Result - very noticeable improvement in sound.

2) New power supply for receiver (Teddy Pardo linear psu). Result - another improvement in sound though less than in (1)

3) Receiver plugged into a Netgear Switch using a short Cat 5 patch rather than going directly to the router 3m distance away. Result - small but noticeable improvement in sound.

4) Replaced 5 year old Edimax router with Billion 7800N router. Result - another noticeable improvement bigger than (3).

The sum total of these 4 changes have definitely improved my listening experience. I have not conducted any blind listening tests or scientific analysis. I just sit down and appreciate the sound that reaches my ears more than I did a few years back. Can't explain it any better, sorry!
 

nads

Well-known member
Nov 29, 2007
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1 I can believe.

2 sceptical about.

3 nah

4 nah

my thoughts. But i know nothing about net works but i know that any music i have stored on any of my 3 PCs (wired) 1 laptop (wireless) or 2 different NAS (wired) all going through a number of switches and Routers (some dont need to go through the router) sound the same when played via my Touch. they also sound different from but the same when streamed wirelessly via the SB3.

when i change the power supply on the DAC magic I heard no difference.

But each to their own ears.
 
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Anonymous

Guest
Alienrik and Nads are both correct in what they say and imply. The Dacmagic comes with an AC converter. Everything else related to power supply is within the unit itself.

By the way, this also means that changing the converter is going to have zero impact on the sound. If you want to upgrade the power supply and impact the sound, you would have to open up the Dacmagic and change parts within the unit. Which is why, Nads, you heard no difference, because there wasn't any.
 

Craig M.

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Mar 20, 2008
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Grottyash said:
Alienrik and Nads are both correct in what they say and imply. The Dacmagic comes with an AC converter. Everything else related to power supply is within the unit itself.

By the way, this also means that changing the converter is going to have zero impact on the sound. If you want to upgrade the power supply and impact the sound, you would have to open up the Dacmagic and change parts within the unit. Which is why, Nads, you heard no difference, because there wasn't any.
ah, you learn something every day. makes me smile thinking about the various comments i have read about changing the external 'psu' and the resulting improvement in sound quality.
 
A

Anonymous

Guest
i'd love to know how changing the power supply could improve a dacs performance? it's all very well people saying they could hear an improvement, but how? why?
 

CnoEvil

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Aug 21, 2009
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maxflinn said:
i'd love to know how changing the power supply could improve a dacs performance? it's all very well people saying they could hear an improvement, but how? why?
:| :p
 

AL13N

New member
Nov 29, 2009
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At least the power supply is an integral part of the electronic circuit that makes up an audio component, fluctuations in which can be measured (audibility aside).

The point of this thread, that a new router can improve the soundstage, is beyond logic. The soundstage, and every other element of the music, is part of the recording. Part of the data. It is not placed on the track as a seperate entity or bits of data.

If the router is losing bits this cannot result in a variation in the soundstage. It will result in drop outs or stutter in the music that are both obvious and annoying.
 

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