One for the WHF team. When are you guys going to do a review? (if you havent already and ive missed it!?)
Thanks
Thanks
Naim DAC
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I heard it saturday having a demo, (my thread "overkill?" explains it). The guy swore it was as good if not better than the cdx2, and it sure did sound it, with the ease of use with the sonos i'm seriously thinking about it.
Also my cyrus 6se sounded like an old ALBA in comparison to the cdx2 and the dac. i know it's more than twice the price but it sounded 10 times better.
Wow! I have read a very glowing review elsewhere. Hmmm, wondering how it would sound with my Apollo as a transport?!
That's what i'll be doing with cyrus, but defo using sonos with lossless files.It really is as good as the 3 grand cdp! even mp3 low bitrate is good.
sonos is the wireless music streamer from your i-tunes or whatever to your sysem,then on to any room in the house. so easy to use, just like an i-pod(which you can also use to control it.) superb. have a look at my thread, page 3 i think of hifi forum.
Right but you still need a computer to run it right? and presumably one with a great sound card for the DAC to sound at its best? Sorry to sound dumb but i know nothing about computer based music.
Frank Harvey
Well-known member
You can play music from your PC to your Sonos, but you don't need to - I don't. All I use mine for is access to internet radio stations, Napster, and occassionally Last FM and Deezer. Spofity should be on board sometime in the near future.
Everyone who has tried our DAC in their system have ordered one so far - so it must be good!!
Although Naim are out of stock until the end of next month now..shame.
Everyone who has tried our DAC in their system have ordered one so far - so it must be good!!
Although Naim are out of stock until the end of next month now..shame.
Sliced Bread
Well-known member
Does this mean that if the "Zero Jitter" system truly works, then in theory the transport should not effect the DAC in the same way that other DACs are effected?
from:
http://www.whathifi.com/News/Naim-launches-1950-zero-jitter-DAC-complete-with-iPod-digital-input/
"At the heart of the Naim DAC is a system designed to give zero jitter - digital timing errors - from external S/PDIF sources. Rather than try to recover the master clock from the S/PDIF signal - ie the digital inputs - the incoming digital signal is stored in solid-state memory and then clocked back out to the digital-to-analogue converters using a series of fixed-frequency local master clocks.
The audio data is clocked into the memory at the incoming inconsistently-timed rate, and is then clocked out of the memory and into the DAC chips using a precise clock.
The rate at which the memory fills and empties is controlled by selecting the master clock that best matches the average incoming clock frequency. In this way, the data entering the DAC chips is completely isolated from the incoming jitter.
In this way, jitter on the S/PDIF inputs is eliminated, the DAC's memory, master clock and conversion working like a CD player's transport, master clock and DACs."
from:
http://www.whathifi.com/News/Naim-launches-1950-zero-jitter-DAC-complete-with-iPod-digital-input/
"At the heart of the Naim DAC is a system designed to give zero jitter - digital timing errors - from external S/PDIF sources. Rather than try to recover the master clock from the S/PDIF signal - ie the digital inputs - the incoming digital signal is stored in solid-state memory and then clocked back out to the digital-to-analogue converters using a series of fixed-frequency local master clocks.
The audio data is clocked into the memory at the incoming inconsistently-timed rate, and is then clocked out of the memory and into the DAC chips using a precise clock.
The rate at which the memory fills and empties is controlled by selecting the master clock that best matches the average incoming clock frequency. In this way, the data entering the DAC chips is completely isolated from the incoming jitter.
In this way, jitter on the S/PDIF inputs is eliminated, the DAC's memory, master clock and conversion working like a CD player's transport, master clock and DACs."
Just spoken to Simon Lucas, who looks after the First Tests pages - he's going to give Naim another nudge
Surely using a CD player as a transport will sound better than playing straight off the internet wont it?
Gander:Surely using a CD player as a transport will sound better than playing straight off the internet wont it?
Frank Harvey
Well-known member
Gander:Surely using a CD player as a transport will sound better than playing straight off the internet wont it?
Yes it will, but it will depend on the bit rate the internet radio station uses. The ones I listen to sound fine. While they won't worry a top notch CD player, they're more than good enough for casual listening. I'm susprised how good they do sound most of the time.
Yes it will, but it will depend on the bit rate the internet radio station uses. The ones I listen to sound fine. While they won't worry a top notch CD player, they're more than good enough for casual listening. I'm susprised how good they do sound most of the time.
idc
Well-known member
Benchmark and their USB DAC are claiming zero jitter as well (though zero may be theoretically possible only). Benchmark do the opposite of Naim and clock the data from the sender (PC primarily) so that the sender has to wait and send data only when the DAC is ready.
I thought that re-clocking to remove (minimise) jitter on the incoming signal was standard practice for an audio DAC. My Beresford DAC should be doing this.
I have read that it wont add jitter, but there will be jitter as there is always some form of jitter from the source.
I don't want to open a can 'o' worms as i know that it can be painful for all, but i am interested in learning more.
So am i right in thinking that some will say that as long as you send a "working" high bit rate digital signal to a DAC then it wont matter about the source, as long as the signal is working (a la HDMI cabel arguments!), whilst others will wax lyrical about a fancy high end source that simply delivers the same digital signal but "better"? ie do you really need to have and HDX in order to hear the very best form the DAC or can you just have a great soundcard in your pc?
Am i also right in assuming that the quality of CD player would make a difference as the physical retrival from a disk will differ in quality the better the player?
The reasons why i wish to get my head round all this is that im considering a new / upgraded CDP but im thinking my money would be better invested in the DAC. And of course i know that finally i would need to listen to it all anyway in order to make up my own mind.
Sorry in advance!
I don't want to open a can 'o' worms as i know that it can be painful for all, but i am interested in learning more.
So am i right in thinking that some will say that as long as you send a "working" high bit rate digital signal to a DAC then it wont matter about the source, as long as the signal is working (a la HDMI cabel arguments!), whilst others will wax lyrical about a fancy high end source that simply delivers the same digital signal but "better"? ie do you really need to have and HDX in order to hear the very best form the DAC or can you just have a great soundcard in your pc?
Am i also right in assuming that the quality of CD player would make a difference as the physical retrival from a disk will differ in quality the better the player?
The reasons why i wish to get my head round all this is that im considering a new / upgraded CDP but im thinking my money would be better invested in the DAC. And of course i know that finally i would need to listen to it all anyway in order to make up my own mind.
Sorry in advance!
idc
Well-known member
I have been reading up on jitter. The transport or sender is important depending on how much jitter it generates and how well the DAC copes with jitter.
For USB you have synchronous where the transport deals with the jitter, asynchronous where the DAC deals with the jitter and adaptive where the DAC has control over the timing of the data and it also deals with the jitter as a combination of both.
Synchronus suffers from the most jitter, but if the DAC has a large buffer to collect the data and then clock it itself, then it can remove the jitter. Asynchronous is where the DAC has a master clock and it controls the transports sending of the data, which is claimed to be the most effective way of removing jitter.
One of the worst examples of a sender with jitter is Windows XP and K-mixer. I can't name any brands, but I am sure some CDPs are better at reading CDs and then sending data with less jitter than others. Windows 7 is apprently much better at dealing with jitter than before.
For USB you have synchronous where the transport deals with the jitter, asynchronous where the DAC deals with the jitter and adaptive where the DAC has control over the timing of the data and it also deals with the jitter as a combination of both.
Synchronus suffers from the most jitter, but if the DAC has a large buffer to collect the data and then clock it itself, then it can remove the jitter. Asynchronous is where the DAC has a master clock and it controls the transports sending of the data, which is claimed to be the most effective way of removing jitter.
One of the worst examples of a sender with jitter is Windows XP and K-mixer. I can't name any brands, but I am sure some CDPs are better at reading CDs and then sending data with less jitter than others. Windows 7 is apprently much better at dealing with jitter than before.
Gander:
I have read that it wont add jitter, but there will be jitter as there is always some form of jitter from the source.
I don't want to open a can 'o' worms as i know that it can be painful for all, but i am interested in learning more.
So am i right in thinking that some will say that as long as you send a "working" high bit rate digital signal to a DAC then it wont matter about the source, as long as the signal is working (a la HDMI cabel arguments!), whilst others will wax lyrical about a fancy high end source that simply delivers the same digital signal but "better"? ie do you really need to have and HDX in order to hear the very best form the DAC or can you just have a great soundcard in your pc?
Am i also right in assuming that the quality of CD player would make a difference as the physical retrival from a disk will differ in quality the better the player?
The reasons why i wish to get my head round all this is that im considering a new / upgraded CDP but im thinking my money would be better invested in the DAC. And of course i know that finally i would need to listen to it all anyway in order to make up my own mind.
Sorry in advance!
The best thing to do is go and have a demo, (although like me, you could be planning on changing your whole set up after!) take your cdp and use it as a transport against another, more expensive one. I didn't use my cyrus with the dac because the sonos zone player,(cost £279 approx) sounded as good, (also debated, maybe even better) than the £3250.00 naim cdx2. So there was no point, the guy at the shop said that a good hard drive retrieves data better than a mass produced cd player mechanism's, (which could be right) Obviously higher end cdp's will be better at this but i dont think you'll find much difference between your rega and say the cdx2 used as a transport.
I have read that it wont add jitter, but there will be jitter as there is always some form of jitter from the source.
I don't want to open a can 'o' worms as i know that it can be painful for all, but i am interested in learning more.
So am i right in thinking that some will say that as long as you send a "working" high bit rate digital signal to a DAC then it wont matter about the source, as long as the signal is working (a la HDMI cabel arguments!), whilst others will wax lyrical about a fancy high end source that simply delivers the same digital signal but "better"? ie do you really need to have and HDX in order to hear the very best form the DAC or can you just have a great soundcard in your pc?
Am i also right in assuming that the quality of CD player would make a difference as the physical retrival from a disk will differ in quality the better the player?
The reasons why i wish to get my head round all this is that im considering a new / upgraded CDP but im thinking my money would be better invested in the DAC. And of course i know that finally i would need to listen to it all anyway in order to make up my own mind.
Sorry in advance!
The best thing to do is go and have a demo, (although like me, you could be planning on changing your whole set up after!) take your cdp and use it as a transport against another, more expensive one. I didn't use my cyrus with the dac because the sonos zone player,(cost £279 approx) sounded as good, (also debated, maybe even better) than the £3250.00 naim cdx2. So there was no point, the guy at the shop said that a good hard drive retrieves data better than a mass produced cd player mechanism's, (which could be right) Obviously higher end cdp's will be better at this but i dont think you'll find much difference between your rega and say the cdx2 used as a transport.
I heard a prototype of the Naim DAC at last years Bristol HiFi Show, from the reviews that I have read, and from what people are saying on the Naim Forum, it sounds even better!.
I would describe the sound as being very transparent and neutral, expect it doesnt sound bright, and sound very whole, everything in its place, oh yeah and the normal naim thing for pace, rhythm and timing.
I really, really want one!
As for all transports sounding the same, from what I read that isnt true. People on the naim forums, are saying ever transport sounds different, but many reckond Cyrus SE drive, is a good value one, for £ v Sound.
The fact its zero jitter, is irrelevent. i think the different in transports depends on how well it is reading the data off the disk ./ harddrive, as CD players do have error correction systems in them that insert the missing bits where it has miss read / disk is scratched. I think it also depends, on the quality of the digital output.
for that reason, when funds allow, I plan to build my own music server, using a decent CD rom drive and software for ripping from Plextor (about £80) expensive for a CD ROM drive, but its meant to be a quality one. and also plan on buying a decent soundcard for a decent digital output (about £130).
If I'm going to spend weeks ripping my CD collection, I guess its worth spending a bit of money to make sure i've got the best possible rips, without spending thousands
decent sound card about "14
I would describe the sound as being very transparent and neutral, expect it doesnt sound bright, and sound very whole, everything in its place, oh yeah and the normal naim thing for pace, rhythm and timing.
I really, really want one!
As for all transports sounding the same, from what I read that isnt true. People on the naim forums, are saying ever transport sounds different, but many reckond Cyrus SE drive, is a good value one, for £ v Sound.
The fact its zero jitter, is irrelevent. i think the different in transports depends on how well it is reading the data off the disk ./ harddrive, as CD players do have error correction systems in them that insert the missing bits where it has miss read / disk is scratched. I think it also depends, on the quality of the digital output.
for that reason, when funds allow, I plan to build my own music server, using a decent CD rom drive and software for ripping from Plextor (about £80) expensive for a CD ROM drive, but its meant to be a quality one. and also plan on buying a decent soundcard for a decent digital output (about £130).
If I'm going to spend weeks ripping my CD collection, I guess its worth spending a bit of money to make sure i've got the best possible rips, without spending thousands
decent sound card about "14
idc
Well-known member
sometimesuk:
.......The fact its zero jitter, is irrelevent. i think the different in transports depends on how well it is reading the data off the disk ./ harddrive, as CD players do have error correction systems in them that insert the missing bits where it has miss read / disk is scratched. I think it also depends, on the quality of the digital output.......
The reading of the data is straightforward. Error correction with CDPs has to take place far quicker and with fewer reads of the disc than a PC can do when importing a CD and creating a music file. Jitter is important because of the timing of the transmission of the data. With jitter you get bit perfect data being sent at the wrong time and, from what I have read, zero jitter is impossible and pretty much everything in the audio chain causes jitter. That is relevant.
The claims that Naim and Benchmark are making for their DACs and the ability to reduce jitter to 'zero' is a big step forward for DACs. This technology will hopefully become cheaper and available in all DACs, so long as it lives up to its promises. (Which both appear to be doing from reviews). This then becomes even more important as it really will (could?) be the case that any transport will do.
.......The fact its zero jitter, is irrelevent. i think the different in transports depends on how well it is reading the data off the disk ./ harddrive, as CD players do have error correction systems in them that insert the missing bits where it has miss read / disk is scratched. I think it also depends, on the quality of the digital output.......
The reading of the data is straightforward. Error correction with CDPs has to take place far quicker and with fewer reads of the disc than a PC can do when importing a CD and creating a music file. Jitter is important because of the timing of the transmission of the data. With jitter you get bit perfect data being sent at the wrong time and, from what I have read, zero jitter is impossible and pretty much everything in the audio chain causes jitter. That is relevant.
The claims that Naim and Benchmark are making for their DACs and the ability to reduce jitter to 'zero' is a big step forward for DACs. This technology will hopefully become cheaper and available in all DACs, so long as it lives up to its promises. (Which both appear to be doing from reviews). This then becomes even more important as it really will (could?) be the case that any transport will do.
manicm
Well-known member
idc:sometimesuk:
.......The fact its zero jitter, is irrelevent. i think the different in transports depends on how well it is reading the data off the disk ./ harddrive, as CD players do have error correction systems in them that insert the missing bits where it has miss read / disk is scratched. I think it also depends, on the quality of the digital output.......
The reading of the data is straightforward. Error correction with CDPs has to take place far quicker and with fewer reads of the disc than a PC can do when importing a CD and creating a music file. Jitter is important because of the timing of the transmission of the data. With jitter you get bit perfect data being sent at the wrong time and, from what I have read, zero jitter is impossible and pretty much everything in the audio chain causes jitter. That is relevant.
The claims that Naim and Benchmark are making for their DACs and the ability to reduce jitter to 'zero' is a big step forward for DACs. This technology will hopefully become cheaper and available in all DACs, so long as it lives up to its promises. (Which both appear to be doing from reviews). This then becomes even more important as it really will (could?) be the case that any transport will do.
Do note that Naim have all but given up on the PC as a source - the Naim DAC does not support connecting a PC to its USB input.
.......The fact its zero jitter, is irrelevent. i think the different in transports depends on how well it is reading the data off the disk ./ harddrive, as CD players do have error correction systems in them that insert the missing bits where it has miss read / disk is scratched. I think it also depends, on the quality of the digital output.......
The reading of the data is straightforward. Error correction with CDPs has to take place far quicker and with fewer reads of the disc than a PC can do when importing a CD and creating a music file. Jitter is important because of the timing of the transmission of the data. With jitter you get bit perfect data being sent at the wrong time and, from what I have read, zero jitter is impossible and pretty much everything in the audio chain causes jitter. That is relevant.
The claims that Naim and Benchmark are making for their DACs and the ability to reduce jitter to 'zero' is a big step forward for DACs. This technology will hopefully become cheaper and available in all DACs, so long as it lives up to its promises. (Which both appear to be doing from reviews). This then becomes even more important as it really will (could?) be the case that any transport will do.
Do note that Naim have all but given up on the PC as a source - the Naim DAC does not support connecting a PC to its USB input.
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