Naim and Dynaudio X12 - Harsh Treble Problem

[NJB]

Hi,

I have had this issue for some time, and am worried that there is a system issue behind it. My naim 62/150x combination sounds laid back and sweet with my Epos ES14. However, one of them has developed a slur on the bass and it looks like a driver fault that could be end game. I picked up some Dynaudio Excite X12s, without audition, at a fair price and on the back of many positive comments about them having a bit of bass and a sweet treble. However, whilst the bass is neat, the top end is rather harsh and tiring. I have tamed things by using Rothwell attenuators, but would like to get to the cause of the issue.

My Naim gear is a mix of 1990 era Olive and 2005 ear 150x. I am about to add a Teddy Pardo TeddyCap, but cannot get rid of the nagging doubt that my old NAC62 might be part of the problem. Mark at Witch Hat is confident that as a passive pre-amp, there is not much to age inside it and there is no reason to think it is giving me a dose of wild treble.

Any thoughts? Any experience of Naim and Dynaudio out there? I am tempted to look for other speakers, but if it is the electronics then that will be a waste of time.

 

[davedotco]

This is a high gain active pre-amp, not passive, hence the positive effect of the attenuators.

Strange that the harshness is not apparent on the ES14s, they are a pretty revealing speakers but perhaps the Excite are more so, I'm not that familier with them, though in general I like Dynaudios.

If you are not using the phono input on the '62, you can try the adjustable line input boards, they have a trim pot for setting sensitivity so you can see if that is the issue, the '62 could often sound rough with some CD players. Most Naim dealers will have a pair of 328 boards kicking around, see if you can borrow a pair.

Be aware that these boards have a hi-frequency roll off and the reduced gain minimises the classic Naim 'excitement' factor to a degree. See if you like what they do.

Otherwise perhaps time to update your pre-amp to something more 'digital friendly'.

 

[NJB]

Thanks Davedotco, plenty of interesting points there. I have been warned off the 328 boards on account of them having a dubious sonic reputation. I have always suspected that, despite the stencilling on the rear plate that states the line inputs on the NAC62 will take almost anything, my modern sources are overloading it. That was the reason that I bought the Rothwells, I think that the nominal line level is now around 2V, but I am guessing that around the 90s it was lower. My original CD players (Marantz CD 65 Mk II, Arcam Alpha +) were no problem, but the change to the Arcam CD 73T seemed to correspond to a noticeable change in the amount of travel that I needed to use on the volume control. I have read that some users have found that the TeddyCap does provide more balance and they need a little more power for the same listening levels - that would be good for me as I do worry that running the amplifier right at the bottom end of its power band might be giving an unbalanced frequency output that might be part of what I am hearing.

I had been looking to move on from the NAC62, but have stuck with it after a surge of warmth and love on this and other forums. It appears that the NAC 52/72/62 era Pre-Amps benefitted from a neat and minimalist design from JV. I am curious as to why the ES14s never challenged my ears, whereas the Excites do, as the metal dome tweeters in the ES14s have a rep for being peaky. I guess that I will have to put this all down to one of life's mysteries.

 

[davedotco]

Thanks Davedotco, plenty of interesting points there. I have been warned off the 328 boards on account of them having a dubious sonic reputation. I have always suspected that, despite the stencilling on the rear plate that states the line inputs on the NAC62 will take almost anything, my modern sources are overloading it. That was the reason that I bought the Rothwells, I think that the nominal line level is now around 2V, but I am guessing that around the 90s it was lower. My original CD players (Marantz CD 65 Mk II, Arcam Alpha +) were no problem, but the change to the Arcam CD 73T seemed to correspond to a noticeable change in the amount of travel that I needed to use on the volume control. I have read that some users have found that the TeddyCap does provide more balance and they need a little more power for the same listening levels - that would be good for me as I do worry that running the amplifier right at the bottom end of its power band might be giving an unbalanced frequency output that might be part of what I am hearing.

I had been looking to move on from the NAC62, but have stuck with it after a surge of warmth and love on this and other forums. It appears that the NAC 52/72/62 era Pre-Amps benefitted from a neat and minimalist design from JV. I am curious as to why the ES14s never challenged my ears, whereas the Excites do, as the metal dome tweeters in the ES14s have a rep for being peaky. I guess that I will have to put this all down to one of life's mysteries.

Naim pre-amps of the Nac 62 vintage are ridiculously sensitive by modern standards, this confifuration gave Naim it's trademark fast, exciting sound, beloved of devotees. The 328 board reduces the sensitivity, having the effect of 'calming down' the excitement (and aggression) which of cause is not what the devotees want, this is a good part of the reason 328 boards have a bad reputation. Even if you do not end up using them they can help you work out where the overload is coming from, if that is indeed the problem.

CD player should always have been 2volts, from day one. Manufacturers often hike it to 2.2volts or more in an attempt to gain a comparitive advantage, (louder sounds better remember), which may lead to these situations.

I am not sure that adding a power supply would really help, I doubt it would change the gain on the '62 by enough to be significant and anyway the pre-amp must be 20 years old by now. Something new is in order, if you are, or can go 'all digital', the V1 dac pre-amp might be a nice solution, pricey though.

In your situation I would go the V1 route, then sell both the Epos (for spares) and the Excites and take a good look at the Epos K Series. Drive them with you existing amp for the time being then when they are released, take a look at the active option that is currently under development.

I never really had issues with the ES14 tweeter, I thought it was fine, on the odd occasion it sounded harsh it was invariably down to poor partnering equipment. Given how good these were maybe the Excites are not quite to the standards you are used to, I like Dynaudio product but do not really know the excite.

 

[tonky]

of the epos es 14 speakers here too. Sounded somewhat bass and mid band light on some material with a cambridge 840A v2 . With a Naim unitilite - sounds just right . Firmer deeper bass and fuller mids. Great sound on all material now.

tonky

 

[NJB]

of the epos es 14 speakers here too. Sounded somewhat bass and mid band light on some material with a cambridge 840A v2 . With a Naim unitilite - sounds just right . Firmer deeper bass and fuller mids. Great sound on all material now.

tonky

With you all the way. I think that after so many years with Naim and Epos, it is hard to move on. They don't shake the house with bass, but it is so crisp that it has an elegance all of its own.

 

[CnoEvil]

IME. Old Naim amps (I had 42/110) worked well in the systems of their day...in particular Linn Sondek and speakers like your Epos and my Monitor Audio 852.

The Linn had a mid range bloom and the speakers of that time were not (in general) as forward, clean and deailed as the offerings of today.....this all seemed to keep things in balance (soundwise).

Putting old Naim Amps into modern systems can give you the sound that you describe.

I think you may have to get "old school" sounding speakers (SF/Harbeth/Spendor Classic), or replace the Amps with something like Pathos.

 

[NJB]

IME. Old Naim amps (I had 42/110) worked well in the systems of their day...in particular Linn Sondek and speakers like your Epos and my Monitor Audio 852.

The Linn had a mid range bloom and the speakers of that time were not (in general) as forward, clean and deailed as the offerings of today.....this all seemed to keep things in balance (soundwise).

Putting old Naim Amps into modern systems can give you the sound that you describe.

I think you may have to get "old school" sounding speakers (SF/Harbeth/Spendor Classic), or replace the Amps with something like Pathos.

My Naim stays, it is a speaker search for me. I am trying to arrange an audition for the Epos K2 as I have been recommended to try them. Thanks for the advice.

 

[davedotco]

IME. Old Naim amps (I had 42/110) worked well in the systems of their day...in particular Linn Sondek and speakers like your Epos and my Monitor Audio 852.

The Linn had a mid range bloom and the speakers of that time were not (in general) as forward, clean and deailed as the offerings of today.....this all seemed to keep things in balance (soundwise).

Putting old Naim Amps into modern systems can give you the sound that you describe.

I think you may have to get "old school" sounding speakers (SF/Harbeth/Spendor Classic), or replace the Amps with something like Pathos.

My Naim stays, it is a speaker search for me. I am trying to arrange an audition for the Epos K2 as I have been recommended to try them. Thanks for the advice.

It's your system, your money and your choice. This is my view.

Looking at new speakers without sorting out the issues 'upstream' would be an error in my experience. Better, more revealing, modern speakers will simply give you a clearer look at what is happening and if it turns out to be a mismatch in terms of the player/pre-amp and the system gain, it will just get worse.

I know it is not fashionable to say this, but better speakers does not automatically mean a better sound, system building is about the system something that is very much downplayed these days. If there is any way you can try a less sensitive, more up to date pre/amp, I urge you to do so before parting with any cash.

 

[NJB]

Ok, so I was bored. I have taken out the pre-amp boards and hard wired a link in a la na326. It is different, far less edgy, a bit more mellow and an easier listen for sure.

I totally agree that the system needs to be properly balanced, but I am convinced that I can fix this. Nothing like a bit of pig headedness on a Friday night.

Feeling a lot happier than an hour ago.

 

[davedotco]

So what boards were you using before and what source?

Nothing wrong with pig headedness, trying things out for yourself is always the best way to learn.

In fact my insistance in getting things right, source to speakers, comes from a time when, as a very inexperienced dealer, I was doing a dem for an american who wanted to buy some new speakers.

I brought in his own american amplifier (very good he assured me) and told me which speakers he fancied, so I set the system up, I was not having a good day so was not really paying as much attention as I should, so when I was asked to try a better speaker as the first choice was not that good, I just went ahead and did that.

The result was still poor, so better speakers again, and again. Finally my brain clicked into gear so I suggested a coffee break. I left him to his coffee and returned to the dem room, when he came back in I had his original (and cheapest) speakers back on and sounding fabulous.

What have you done he asked? That sounds fantastic!

What I had done of course was replaced his wretched amplifier with a compedent budget model that we sold, his own highly praised model turning out to be complete garbage.

Get the system right before trying better speakers, a lesson I never forgot....!

 

[NJB]

The boards in the NAC62 were 322/4. They are now sat on the table, while I sit back and evaluate what I have now in terms is a sound. I think it is different, but that was based on a few quick tunes before bed and I need to get things warmed up properly to really understand it all.

My system currently is either iPod classic/Pure i20 dock or Arcam CD 73T into Beresford Bushmaster II then the NAC62/NAP150X through NACA5 into Dynaudio Excite X12. On order, and hopefully in the post to me, is a TeddyCap.

I am irrationally attached to the Naim gear. I started playing with hifi when I was 18, and over the next few years I quickly moved through a variety of second hand bargains with my local dealer. I bought a NAC62/NAP90 with Epos ES14 set up about 5 years later and, for me, it was the pinnacle. The gear travelled the world with me and the RAF, but slipped into disuse a few too many years ago. However, I have dusted the gear off and have the space and time to indulge myself in hifi again. The NAP 90 was sounding a little off colour and I replaced that with a used NAP 150X, which I instantly liked. The ES14s come out occasionally, but one of the mid/bass units is making a noise, at volume, that is hard to describe but is like it is slurring its words; I have been warned that it could be the early signs of failure. Last year, I saw a dealer with the Excites on sale for £350 and just bought them mail order, thinking that if I did not like them then I could sell them on. So, there is not much logic in my system really, it is all memories and a few bargain buys thrown in.

 

[davedotco]

As I have said before, the '62 is an old fashioned, high gain pre-amp that is overdriven by virtually any digital front end, making it prone to edgyness and giving it an aggresive character. It also explains the ridiculously low settings on the volume control.

You are fortunate that the Bushmaster is not a really high output device so in that sense it is a good choice, but you pre-amp is on the edge of overload pretty much all the time and this can become wearing. Adding a power supply may have a small impact but the basic issues remain and will become more obvious with time.

A new pre-amp is the real answer and the neatest solution is a V1 as both dac and pre-amp. A flexible modern solution that will see you through the next 20 years.

 

[NJB]

I have spent the day listening to the modified NAC62, and it is much better. The volume control etc is pretty similar to how it was with the Rothwells in line with the input (-10dB), but the sound feels more open. The treble has changed the most, which is what I wanted, while the bass has stayed solid. Yes, I would love a V1, and I would expect that to partner well with the NAP150x, but it is a big investment for me. I can live with the current set up, and as long as the TeddyCap does the things that other forum members have stated, then I will be fine until I find a S/H or ex-demo V1 at a price that suits.

The other option is a new pre-amp, and there are too many conflicting reviews to pick one blind. My consensus is that 52 is the best, followed by the 72; both of a similar era to the 62 and so likely to find CD levels challenging. The early black series get heavily panned, and the later ones are silly money. It is a tough one to pick a winner, so I will probably wait a bit and then see what I think.

 

[chebby]

I have spent the day listening to the modified NAC62, and it is much better. The volume control etc is pretty similar to how it was with the Rothwells in line with the input (-10dB), but the sound feels more open. The treble has changed the most, which is what I wanted, while the bass has stayed solid. Yes, I would love a V1, and I would expect that to partner well with the NAP150x, but it is a big investment for me. I can live with the current set up, and as long as the TeddyCap does the things that other forum members have stated, then I will be fine until I find a S/H or ex-demo V1 at a price that suits.

The other option is a new pre-amp, and there are too many conflicting reviews to pick one blind. My consensus is that 52 is the best, followed by the 72; both of a similar era to the 62 and so likely to find CD levels challenging. The early black series get heavily panned, and the later ones are silly money. It is a tough one to pick a winner, so I will probably wait a bit and then see what I think.

If you are only using digitally connected sources, then why not forget the pre-amp and just use the Bushmaster's variable output straight into the Naim power amp?

Hopefully your iPod dock has a digital output to connect to the Bushmaster.

 

[davedotco]

NJB.

Using the 'modified' input on the '62 is exactly the same electronically as using the other line inputs, only the connectors are different, there should be no sonic difference.

Chebby.

The Bushmaster has fixed outputs, the volume control is for the headphone amp. Yes, at a pich you could use the headphone socket to drive the Nap 150x, but the output impedence may be rather high. Best use a Caiman 2, which does have variable outs.

Also I am not entirely comfortable using a third party pre-amp with a Naim power, careful matching is required, particularly with regard to bandwith.

 

[chebby]

Chebby.

The Bushmaster has fixed outputs, the volume control is for the headphone amp. Yes, at a pich you could use the headphone socket to drive the Nap 150x, but the output impedence may be rather high. Best use a Caiman 2, which does have variable outs.

Ah ok. I thought the variable output was common across the Beresford range.

 

[NJB]

Hi,

i am not going to dispute your statements, but something has changed. I know that people talk about the beneficial effects of removing boards as they consume power. I will see if the TeddyCap helps or hinders, but I suspect that a new Pre will be required at some point. Do you know at what model number the input sensitivity was modified to cope with the CD levels of output device? There are plenty of 82/92 around. The 102 was a 92 with remote, I believe, and gets few fans. The 112 is similarly mixed, but the 122x sounds promising and was designed to partner my 150x. Looks like a s/h 122x can be had for reasonable money, so could be a contender. After that, the 152xs does not review quite as well, and the 200 series is way out of my league....

 

[davedotco]

I understand that you have changed things and heard a difference, we all do that, but is most probably caused by other things that we are not taking into account.

The issue with vintage gear like the '62 is that it is really not suited to modern digital sources, the high gain design worked well enough years ago with record players and other sources that outputed a few hundred millivolts but not now.

The '62 requires just 75 millivolts to deliver its rated output, even with old style gear this was sensitive enough to 'generate' the pace and drive so typical of Naim but with modern digital sources outputting 2 volts it is operating on the edge of overload.

Making small changes, board swaps, power supplies even equipment supports will appear to make a difference and convince you that all is well, but only for a time. The underlying issues are still there and will return to bug you in due course, so back to the dealer for yet more new boards, bigger power supply etc, etc.

The need is for a new pre-amp, the older style models, up tp the '122, still have the ridiculous 75millivolt sensitivity, later models such as the '155 are better, but not by much. The answer, as I said before, is to avoid the analogue pre-amps and go digital with the V1. Long term it will save you money as it will be a one off purchase.

 

[drummerman]

Whilst some of the problems mentioned by the OP undoubtedly lie with the Naim components I have not found Dynaudio's Esotec Tweeters to be the smoothest of operators.

This was no more obvious then when I compared active Dynaudio's with a pair of AVI ADM's. - Harsh lower treble. Even adjusting treble output via rear switch didn't cure the issue. Otherwise the speaker sounded great. - I understand there are several version of Esotec units so that may or may not be the case with all of them.

 

[BigH]

I also found the X12s to be irritating, esp. with jazz, had to turn them off after about 10 mins. That was with Marantz Pearl Lite cdp and amp. Neat are popular with Naim users.

 

[NJB]

I appreciate all your comments and, after a few careful Google searches, I have found many threads on this topic. The high sensitivity of the early Naim pre-amps are derided by some as incompatible with modern sources, idolised by others for their Naimness and tinkered with by a few who are looking to fix the issues. I am lucky, the 62 has the better volume control, but the choice is to operate with minimal volume travel or attenuate the source. I have been warned to avoid highly sensitive speakers, my sets are both 86dB, which do not appear to be that high. My issues are more pronounced with the more lively Dynaudios, the Epos ES14s are just too laid back and cool to be that excitable. There are many ways to fix things, so there are fun times ahead while I figure out my preferred solution.

 

[tonky]

I think that the epos es14 speakers Just give an accurate reflection of what is in front of them. Amplification - source - whatever is there it is capable of revealing quite small differences (inmho). It certainly reveals the differences in a variety of sources and amplification that I use/have used

As a "character" I would definitely not say "laid back". - open and transparent - yes - for sure!

tonky

 

[NJB]

I understand that you have changed things and heard a difference, we all do that, but is most probably caused by other things that we are not taking into account.

The issue with vintage gear like the '62 is that it is really not suited to modern digital sources, the high gain design worked well enough years ago with record players and other sources that outputed a few hundred millivolts but not now.

The '62 requires just 75 millivolts to deliver its rated output, even with old style gear this was sensitive enough to 'generate' the pace and drive so typical of Naim but with modern digital sources outputting 2 volts it is operating on the edge of overload.

Making small changes, board swaps, power supplies even equipment supports will appear to make a difference and convince you that all is well, but only for a time. The underlying issues are still there and will return to bug you in due course, so back to the dealer for yet more new boards, bigger power supply etc, etc.

The need is for a new pre-amp, the older style models, up tp the '122, still have the ridiculous 75millivolt sensitivity, later models such as the '155 are better, but not by much. The answer, as I said before, is to avoid the analogue pre-amps and go digital with the V1. Long term it will save you money as it will be a one off purchase.

The TeddyCap arrived today. It is plumbed in and working. It needs some burn-in time, but the first impressions are very positive. Suspiciously so. Treble is more refined, very spacious sound and the bass is punchy. Also, the volume control has more travel than before. All very positive and making me wonder if the internal power distribution in the NAC62 has been up to scratch.

 

[davedotco]

Hicap style power supplies offer two separate 24 volt dc supplies so should always be superior to the simpler, single 24 volt supply in the power amplifier. It was always considered an important upgrade in the Naim scheme of things, particularly with the older series pre-amp that you have.

The improvements that you describe are what are expected, possibly due to improved headroom (better overload performance) which is the explanation I was given many years ago.

The most interesting point you make is that the volume control travel is improved. Be interesting to know if the effective sensitivity has changed, though I suspect not.

Perhaps a subjective improvement due to greater headroom allowing slightly higher levels to be used. I can not recall any obvious differences of this kind when using a Highcap, wonder what the Teddycap does differently...?