My worst demo ever (so far...)

[DocG]

Now this was an experience!

Looking for a dealer with the Anthony Gallo Strada speakers in demo, I came across a 'shop' that sold this brand. Unfortunately he had no Strada in demo (and no Ref 3.5 either), though he was willing to sell me the speakers (blind, that is)...

What he did have, were some Totem models (Sttaf, Dreamcatcher and Tribe III). I had heard good things of Totem, so I made an appointment and went. I first couldn't find the shop, but it happened to be in the man's living room. Personal service, I like that.

He started right away with a demo of the Dreamcatchers, fed by a Sonos Connect:Amp(!), playing some internet radio station(!). The speaker wires went from the Sonos to a wall plug, and then from another wall plug (the other side of the room) to the speakers. The result was not particularly impressive, so to say. So I asked him to quickly move on to the bigger boys.

Those were in a chalet in the garden. A real amplifier here: an Einstein integrated hybrid amp (retail price €7000, he told me). The source was an Olive 03HD server, that doubled as CD player. All was ready, so I slipped a CD in the Olive's slot loader; the device swallowed my CD... and froze! Attempts to get the thing running were futile - the CD stayed in and it did nothing.

The dealer went and came back after some time, with a Denon CD recorder he had found somewhere in the house. We could then finally start to audition the Sttaf's, with the CD's I had left. Nice soundstage, good timing, but the music sounded shrill, with annoying sibilance to the voices. The (wall mounted) Tribe IIIs had the same unpleasant treble, but with lesser soundstage and poorer timing. (In the meantime the dealer kept trying to get my CD out of the Olive...)

I'm not sure if the speakers were to blame, or the electronics, the room acoustics or what have you. But it sounded dreadful... I wanted to leave ASAP. On our way out, the dealer told me 95% of his customers just bought "a hifi" or "a surround set" without bothering about the sound, as long as all was as invisible as possible. I kid you not!

So there I was, back on the street, having lost a couple of hours of my free time... and a CD. Ready to explore new hifi-shops in rural Belgium! 8)

 

[CnoEvil]

I have always found Totems "shouty", but never knew if it was the system or not.

 

[Pete68]

shouldn't laugh....

:rofl:

 

[csq2]

Trust me it's the electronics. I had Totem Rainmakers before and they were the most musical speaker I have listened to. Andrea Bocelli sounded more natural and powerful than $30K Magico S5s.

 

[plastic penguin]

I have always found Totems "shouty", but never knew if it was the system or not.

:shame:

 

[plastic penguin]

The worst dem I've experienced was the Naim Nait 5i with RS6s and Arcam CD73. Had to grab the painkillers after 20 minutes.

 

[Hi-FiOutlaw]

The worst dem I've experienced was the Naim Nait 5i with RS6s and Arcam CD73. Had to grab the painkillers after 20 minutes.

+ 1 !

I've write that somewere in here, i've done a home demo, (when i was on the market to buy the Dynaudios) of a Naim 5i and Dynaudios X12 and at the time I still had the MA B4.

After half hour i had to pull the plug on the Naim and connected my old NAD 3020i to demo the Dynaudios, but did try the Naim 5i with the MA B4, a painfull experience....

 

[DocG]

shouldn't laugh....

:rofl:

Sure you can laugh Laughing is healthy!

 

[DocG]

Anyone ever heard the Totem Mani II's? Reading through the brochure, they really grabbed my imagination. Standmounters digging in the 20 Hz region! Oh man! (a touch expensive though...)

 

[drummerman]

As to Cno's comment about Totem's appearing to be shouty ... I kind of agree though it is not unique to just Totem. Small drivers will by their very nature emphasise mids and highs, adding bass by means of box venting. Exceed their limits and you not only have bass doubling resulting in lighter, distorted lows but also shouty mids and lower highs. Its just physics. Up to their limits though they can, if done right, do things larger speakers sometimes struggle with.

Smaller speakers = smaller rooms and lower volume

regards

 

[davedotco]

I'm going to give this one a bit of a twist.

One of the worst dems I ever did was for a TV creative type, who is responsible for a number of TV shows, some of which you will know.

We had, over a period, built up a very decent vinyl system for him, but then he goes out and buys a big pair of active speakers and their matching pre-amp. Being quite familiar with the product I suggested that the pre-amp was a week link (true) and talked him into letting me bring round a newish model by ARC.

Initially I was quite put out, his system sounded very good and I thought I would have trouble bettering it, we set up a piece with a long guitar intro and again I was very impressed with his system. My thought at the time was that the system was so clear that I could hear every note and would have no trouble leaning to play it 'by ear'.

Then I substituted my pre-amp and the difference was astonishing, the guitar playing was now simply so good that I knew, without any doubt, that however long I practised I would never be able to match it, not ever...... :rockout:

Unfortunately my client just 'didn't get it', so not only was it a wasted trip but I pretty much stopped trying to improve my playing too.

A definite lose - lose.......

 

[altruistic.lemon]

Heard the Arro, and agree with shouty comments. The Sttaf is a different ball game and better balanced imo, but seemed to get a bit muddled on complex classical pieces. Bit mixed about Totem, would go down the Neat road in preference, but have only heard the elite.

 

[CnoEvil]

Heard the Arro, and agree with shouty comments. The Sttaf is a different ball game and better balanced imo, but seemed to get a bit muddled on complex classical pieces. Bit mixed about Totem, would go down the Neat road in preference, but have only heard the elite.

I heard Totem Winds, driven by a Moon 700i (with 750D CDP).

 

[Macspur]

My limited experience of Totems was a couple of years ago... heard some Totem model 1 sigs at a dealers and really liked them, so had a home demo, but disappointingly they sounded very bright and harsh, so quickly sent them back.

You live and learn DocG... sure you'll have a better experience next time.

Mac

 

[oldric_naubhoff]

Hi DocG

slightly off topic, I'm totally not interested in any Totems, but I thought I'd share with you my suggestion as you might be interested to give it a try.

knowing you're based in Belgium and you're on a lookout for some good quality speakers I think you wouldn't have much trouble demming a pair of Dutch Pio Sound speakers. I think the smaller model, the Falcon, should interest you. they are a hybrid of ESL mid-high panel and dual active dynamic drivers (upper is open baffle while the lower is sealed box for better integration with dipole ESL propagation pattern - so they say). the bigger are a pure ESL. I have those speakers on my radar. reviews that I saw so far are definitely unanimous about high quality sound those speakers produce. also performance graphs accompanying some of those reviews would definitely back up listening experience, which for me personally is very important fact (read it: it can't sound good if it measures bad - some colourations while often pleasant sounding are not hi-fi).

 

[plastic penguin]

Heard the Arro, and agree with shouty comments. The Sttaf is a different ball game and better balanced imo, but seemed to get a bit muddled on complex classical pieces. Bit mixed about Totem, would go down the Neat road in preference, but have only heard the elite.

I heard Totem Winds, driven by a Moon 700i (with 750D CDP).

That's interesting, Cno. When I heard the Totem Arros at the dealers, it was rigged to a Moon entry-level (i-1 I think) and that combo did sound a little shrill. However when switched to the Leema there was more control. This is weird because WHFI's review of the Moon, from memory, was "big, barrel-chested sound...." and the Leema in the same group test was described as " greyhound racing" in comparison.

 

[CnoEvil]

That's interesting, Cno. When I heard the Totem Arros at the dealers, it was rigged to a Moon entry-level (i-1 I think) and that combo did sound a little shrill. However when switched to the Leema there was more control. This is weird because WHFI's review of the Moon, from memory, was "big, barrel-chested sound...." and the Leema in the same group test was described as " greyhound racing" in comparison.

I had a Moon i7 out for home trial for 3 days and found it "shrill", for want of a better word, through my Refs......which is why it's hard to know exactly what bit of kit was causing what effect.

The reviews of Moon have always made it sound like something I'd like, but I have never managed to like it on the times I've heard it (including with Focal Diablos).

Hifi is a strange and personal game.

 

[plastic penguin]

That's interesting, Cno. When I heard the Totem Arros at the dealers, it was rigged to a Moon entry-level (i-1 I think) and that combo did sound a little shrill. However when switched to the Leema there was more control. This is weird because WHFI's review of the Moon, from memory, was "big, barrel-chested sound...." and the Leema in the same group test was described as " greyhound racing" in comparison.

I had a Moon i7 out for home trial for 3 days and found it "shrill", for want of a better word, through my Refs......which is why it's hard to know exactly what bit of kit was causing what effect.

The reviews of Moon have always made it sound like something I'd like, but I have never managed to like it on the times I've heard it (including with Focal Diablos).

Hifi is a strange and personal game.

Indeed it is a strange hobby/interest. I'm not saying the Moon is bad - that's the only time I've heard one (the dealer's acoustics was also rank). What I would say is the Arros played at normal levels are staggering IMO. That said, because of the small drivers/cabinet capacity adopted by Totem, and used at high levels in a large room, that could push them beyond reasonable levels, thus could be harsh or "shouty". Otherwise superb.

 

[DocG]

Hi Oldric,

For some reason, quoting doesn't work... Ah well...

Yes, if memory serves me well, I saw the Falcons in Antwerp, when demoing the Martin Logan Ethos (the latter were fabulously open and dynamic but merciless for poor recordings, and harsh when played loud). I saw the Pios, but didn't hear them yet. I could go back, of course!

Would they be a demanding load for an amp? My theory on the Ethos's harshness at high levels is that maybe the amp (Accuphase integrated for my demo) was struggling with the impedance dip in the treble. Would that make sense? And if so, which amp would be better for the job?

I'm also a little worried because of the Final ESLs, also a Dutch design, which must have produced staggering sound, but were notoriously unreliable - the company doesn't exist anymore, which might say something. Thinking about it, maybe Final and Pio are related?

My benchmark speaker so far is the Magnepan 1.7, which unfortunately is too big (too tall, to be exact); it won't fit aesthetically ( :roll: well, there's good things in having a wife too...). My first encounter with the MG12 (in another shop) was plainly disappointing (I guess that might have had to do with amplification as well); and dito for the Triton2 (which wasn't broken-in yet). I'll give these two a second chance later.

 

[oldric_naubhoff]

I saw the Pios, but didn't hear them yet. I could go back, of course!

Would they be a demanding load for an amp?

yes. they dip around 2 Ohms at around 10 kHz. of course it's not unusual for an ESL. the good news is as in every ESL there's only one severe dip at higher freqs where there's little musical energy anyway and impedance over the majority of spectrum is amp friendly. still, you'll need a good performer anyway. budget AB transistors or tubes need not apply.

My theory on the Ethos's harshness at high levels is that maybe the amp (Accuphase integrated for my demo) was struggling with the impedance dip in the treble. Would that make sense? And if so, which amp would be better for the job?

no way an Accu was struggling with anything (provided it was the class A integrated amp). those are some of the most stable amps available. they take 2 Ohm load for breakfast. unless that Accu amp was some lesser unit I'd point into direction of the speakers to look for a culprit. if you check waterfall graphs for Martins (for instance at Stereophile) you'll notice common property of those speakers to have hashy highs. never liked the look of those graphs for Martin speakers.

I'm also a little worried because of the Final ESLs, also a Dutch design, which must have produced staggering sound, but were notoriously unreliable - the company doesn't exist anymore, which might say something. Thinking about it, maybe Final and Pio are related?

it appears they are related. one of the head guys behind Final is now one of the head guys behind Pio. build quality is reportedly very good. what exactly do you mean saying Finals were unreliable?

My benchmark speaker so far is the Magnepan 1.7, which unfortunately is too big (too tall, to be exact); it won't fit aesthetically ( :roll: well, there's good things in having a wife too...). My first encounter with the MG12 (in another shop) was plainly disappointing (I guess that might have had to do with amplification as well); and dito for the Triton2 (which wasn't broken-in yet). I'll give these two a second chance later.

if you decide for planars and your only option is to get smallish ones and not think about upgrading to bigger ones a good option might be so called "Gunned" version of MG12? check the guys web site: http://www.indiespinzone.com/magnestand.html. reportedly they sound way better than the stock version and look way better too. however, the cost of the mod + the price of new speakers will bring MG12 to the price level of new MG1.7. furthermore, they can only be made to order from the USA so the shipping cost will be a consideration as well (and maybe duty + VAT). that's why my comment on not wanting to upgrade in the future. but the guy seems to be constantly busy so obviously there's something special about his mod.

anyway, try Pios first as they are available locally and let us know what you think of them.

 

[busb]

Totem speakers & certainly Arros are particularly demanding regarding amplification if they are not to sound bright as I found out when I bought my Primare power amp. With the right speaker cable, positioning plus getting used to a brighter sound than I'd been used to - they can be spectacular. Very few speakers image like Arros. Their bass is more agile than "big".

As for the worst demo - had to be Cyrus in the basement at Bristol about 7 yrs ago: too loud, very harsh with no audience to soak it up - empty apart from what looked like 3 air hostesses working for them.

 

[DocG]

I'm also a little worried because of the Final ESLs, also a Dutch design, which must have produced staggering sound, but were notoriously unreliable - the company doesn't exist anymore, which might say something. Thinking about it, maybe Final and Pio are related?

it appears they are related. one of the head guys behind Final is now one of the head guys behind Pio. build quality is reportedly very good. what exactly do you mean saying Finals were unreliable?

Looking for info on ESLs , I found a (very positive) review on the Finals. The link to the company website didn't work - as Final had ceased to exist, I discovered. Further googling gave me quite some forum posts (most in Dutch), à la "My fathers Final ESLs died on him - again" or "all Finals brake down, most often the stators; that's why the company went bankrupt, several times" or "for Final, count on new foils every 2 years"... it went on and on. There might have been a "publication bias", of course. But it was striking.

If you decide for planars and your only option is to get smallish ones and not think about upgrading to bigger ones a good option might be so called "Gunned" version of MG12? check the guys web site:http://www.indiespinzone.com/magnestand.html. reportedly they sound way better than the stock version and look way better too. however, the cost of the mod + the price of new speakers will bring MG12 to the price level of new MG1.7. furthermore, they can only be made to order from the USA so the shipping cost will be a consideration as well (and maybe duty + VAT).

The modification is not cheap, indeed. For MG12s, it comes to some $2500 (ex. shipping and taxes). Do you have the knowledge to assess what he does? The options to choose the wood species, the style and colours on the other hand (matching the veneer of the furniture!) may have a dramatic effect on the WAF. I might contact the guy to get some more info.
But in the meantime, I'll schedule a demo op the Pio, and a new audition of the MG12, comparing it with the 1.7, and also of (properly broken-in) Tritons. I'll report back (but it may take a while).

 

[DocG]

Totem speakers & certainly Arros are particularly demanding regarding amplification if they are not to sound bright as I found out when I bought my Primare power amp. With the right speaker cable, positioning plus getting used to a brighter sound than I'd been used to - they can be spectacular. Very few speakers image like Arros. Their bass is more agile than "big".

First of all, my "worst demo ever" was not all about Totem; it was more the whole *experience* that made it what it was.

Having said that, if the Totems limit the choice of amps to those that can bridle their brightness (well, it was more than bright to my ears, it was unpleasant), then I think they're not for me, superb as their imaging may be (and was).

 

[plastic penguin]

As for the worst demo - had to be Cyrus in the basement at Bristol about 7 yrs ago: too loud, very harsh with no audience to soak it up - empty apart from what looked like 3 air hostesses working for them.

The last hi-fi show I went to at Hammersmith Cyrus had their own room. There was a pre/power combo + CDP + outboard power supply on amps and CDP. The speakers were Cyrus's own floorstanders. Probably the worst 'racket' I've ever experienced.

 

[busb]

As for the worst demo - had to be Cyrus in the basement at Bristol about 7 yrs ago: too loud, very harsh with no audience to soak it up - empty apart from what looked like 3 air hostesses working for them.

The last hi-fi show I went to at Hammersmith Cyrus had their own room. There was a pre/power combo + CDP + outboard power supply on amps and CDP. The speakers were Cyrus's own floorstanders. Probably the worst 'racket' I've ever experienced.

I have heard Cyrus amplification since & it sounded fine but their stuff is never going to be accused of being pipe & slippers sounding for the fawn-coloured Cardigan wearers fan club!