My thoughts on the Arcam a19 & Epos Epic 2 combination

[jiggyjoe]

Will not have any effect on sound quality and it does not change the frequency response of the tweeter it only reduces its output.

The resistors you use are exactly the same as the type in your speakers crossovers.

This practice is common amoungst diy speaker builders and often when you buy speaker kits to diy they will ship with different values of resistor so you can balance the tweeter level to taste.

If your interested in speakers look here: http://www.troelsgravesen.dk/Diy_Loudspeaker_Projects.htm

This site is fab

 

[plastic penguin]

Thanks, appreciated, that makes sense. Is this common practice? I've never heard of doing that before- are there negatives like loss of detail or balance? Its a shame as besides the very upper limits of the treble grating sometimes, it sounds wonderful. The bass, midrange, imaging, detail and dynamics are all fantastic.

Goat - have you got your speakers bi-wired?

 

[Goat]

Thanks! This gives me some hope.

Nah, just single wired- will this make much difference?

 

[plastic penguin]

May do - preferences with Arcam is to single wire.

 

[Ben K.]

Recently single wired my setup as I've always had it bi-wired and find it has a little more detail now and so am leaving it this way.

 

[BigH]

Recently single wired my setup as I've always had it bi-wired and find it has a little more detail now and so am leaving it this way.

Which way round did you wire it, I have heard wiring to the tweeter terminals is better.

To the OP I would give those resistors a go, for a few £s not much to lose.

 

[Ben K.]

I wired to the LF terminals and then used some additional cable for jumpers

 

[Goat]

Hmm, having some trouble finding these resistors, seems like a bit of a minefield. The ones on the Maplin website seem different, quoting 10w followed by an R number rather than an Ohm rating.

http://www.maplin.co.uk/10-watt-wirewound-resistor-2181

Are the ones on the above link the ones you mean??

Thanks

 

[BigH]

Hmm, having some trouble finding these resistors, seems like a bit of a minefield. The ones on the Maplin website seem different, quoting 10w followed by an R number rather than an Ohm rating.

http://www.maplin.co.uk/10-watt-wirewound-resistor-2181

Are the ones on the above link the ones you mean??

Thanks

Why not use the Europe-audio link:

http://www.europe-audio.com/Producten_c.asp?Productgroep_B_ID=116&Productgroep_A_ID=99

 

[Goat]

Thanks, i just figured delivery would take a while so
thought id pop to maplin local store if poss.

 

[BigH]

Thanks, i just figured delivery would take a while so thought id pop to maplin local store if poss.

I see, but you may have to order them anyway. Your Maplin link is no longer working.

Is it on all your music, I do have a problem on some recordings but most are fine so I put it down to the recording.

 

[unhalfbricking]

Goat, I thought I would just chip in with my recent experiences here. I have recently bought a budget-end hi-fi system (NAD 316 amp, NAD 515 CD and the KEF Q300 speakers that you originally bought) having put up with the wife's cheapo mini system for many years. The first thing that struck me about the leap from non-fi to modern hi-fi is the ability of a new system to enunciate high frquencies. This is particularly noticeable with cymbals, hi-hats etc. -- the range, extension and tonal variation of high frequency percussion sounds is absolutely gobsmacking. I never knew it existed. Vocal sibilances are also higlighted to a remarkable extent. What I would say about the NAD is that it conveys all this treble detail without any harshness, such that it a positive thing and not an annoying distraction. I was actually concerned (and posted here about it) that the top end on the NAD was too smooth and soft, but have since sorted out better speaker positions and am now delighted with the overall sound. I wonder whether NAD might be an option for you if all else fails.

For what it's worth, I don't find the KEFs have a harsh top-end, but maybe system matching them with the Marantz might have been the issue. I think you might find the Amazon review of the PM 6004, linked below, quite revealing. Obviously, one should take all reviews with a fairly large pinch of salt, but the review and the 23 subsequent comments posted in reply seem to echo an awful lot of what you are saying, particularly in respect of struggling with the top-end issues.

http://www.amazon.co.uk/product-reviews/B0062U5JQW/ref=cm_cr_dp_hist_two?ie=UTF8&filterBy=addTwoStar&showViewpoints=0

Buying a new hi-fi system can feel like a descent into madness. I hope you manage to get the sound you are looking for without too many more problems.

 

[jiggyjoe]

Hmm, having some trouble finding these resistors, seems like a bit of a minefield. The ones on the Maplin website seem different, quoting 10w followed by an R number rather than an Ohm rating.

http://www.maplin.co.uk/10-watt-wirewound-resistor-2181

Are the ones on the above link the ones you mean??

Thanks

yes the r value is resistance so r1 is 1ohm r2.2 is 2.2ohm ect

The resistors from europe audio are better quality but you can try the maplin ones out anyway.

 

[Goat]

Thanks all for your replies. In answer to queries: -

I'm reluctant to go down the Nad route, as I'd lose a lot of what I love about the arcam amp: The detail, soundstage, control, grip over the bass.

No, don't notice overbearing treble with all music, but anything with drums/cymbals or more dancy stuff really brings it out. Sibilance is the worst part.

2 developments today:

1. I bought some resisters from Maplin. Tried the 2.2 Ohm ones and yes, they definitely make a difference, reducing the tweeter output noticibly. Whether the overall balance of the sound is now worse or better, it's hard to say, but on some tracks I actually missed the more pronounced treble from before! I guess that is the problem with recordings varying so much. That said, using the 1 ohm resister might be a good compromise, which I expect will just take the slightest edge off. My other issue is that it feels like cheating in a weird sort of way.

2. I did some reading up on the Marantz NA7004, which is the source in my system. And lo and behold, Gramaphone's review does indeed mention a propensity for over eager treble and most relevant here: obvious and regularly distracting sibilance! Now, besides What hifi's brief remark that there is a slight hint of brightness, there doesnt seem to be much else to back this up. Nevertheless, it has made me wonder if perhaps this is the weak link in my system.

So...I was thinking, I could get a new, better streamer. OR, and this seems more plausible, would adding a good DAC, e.g. the Rega DAC improve matters markedly? NA7004 would feed directly into it optically. I am not overly sure how DAC's work in relation to sources, but would it effectively completely bypass the Marantz 7004's DAC and output, thus completely bypassing the Marantz sound, leaving the rega sound in its place?

Main concern is cost. This is spiralling now, and I feel like I might be going down a bad synergy road. WHF recomend attacking source + speakers for the Arcam A19 and here is me with rich sounding speakers, and entertaining a Riga DAC, which by all accounts is laid back and analogue sounding, albeit detailed. If that then produced a less than satisfactory sound, Id then be looking at forking out even more for new speakers! Ergh.

 

[jiggyjoe]

def not cheating this from troels

As always, tweeter level needs some experimentation, thus a range of series resistors added to the crossover kit. It MUST be tried to suit room-placement, room damping, listening distance, front-end gear and not least personal preference. Taste cannot be argued and if you want a ruler flat response at 2-3 meter listening distance, be my guest. Due to the low point of crossover, dispersion is significant in lower-treble range and from a flat tuning it can be too much - and to my ears, just doesn't sound natural. We badly miss the tone controls of former line-stages to balance the sound in our rooms and the result may be endless tests of gear and cables to find a proper balance. Quite often a 1 USD resistor is all it takes to tame a too aggressive treble level.

good point here in bold, and very costly too.

 

[Goat]

Wise words Jiggyjoe.

Regarding the resisters - are you sure they don't affect the sound quality? All I'm thinking, is that the resister is obviously just a peice of thin, cheap wire. Speaker cables to the speakers themselves clearly affect the quality of the sound...so why doesnt the link between the two binding posts also do so? Sorry, my electronic knowledge is pretty limited!

Still entertaining the idea of possibly investing in a DAC for the NA7004 to be fed into, whether it's worth it is another matter, as apparantly the DAC in the 7004 is pretty good anyway.

 

[Big Chris]

Wise words Jiggyjoe.

Regarding the resisters - are you sure they don't affect the sound quality? All I'm thinking, is that the resister is obviously just a peice of thin, cheap wire. Speaker cables to the speakers themselves clearly affect the quality of the sound...so why doesnt the link between the two binding posts also do so? Sorry, my electronic knowledge is pretty limited!

The thing is - as someone mentioned earlier - coils, resistors and such are the things that make up the crossover inside the speaker anyway. I guess if you wanted to do it properly you could remove the crossover and alter the components to suit.

Decent car stereo crossovers often have 3 different settings for tweeters, attenuating by 0db, 1db, 2db to aid placement. I wouldn't have thought it would be too expensive for speaker manufacturers to either have a rotary control. or to just have additional speaker terminals offering fixed levels of attenuation.

 

[Goat]

So, I have to move out of my large bedroom into another shared house with a pretty small bedroom, so the Epos Epic 2's had to go unfortunately.

However, in their place I decided to get a small pair of bookshelves...and decided on the Kef R100's in the end. At first I was expecting more of the harsh, unnatural sounding treble akin to the Q300's I had a while ago. Oh, how wrong I was. The R100's top end is sooo smooth and refined, it's unbelievable, while still remaining detailed. They go really really well with the Arcam actually and I can now enjoy listening to music again! No more of that nagging feeling that the treble is somehow separate to the rest of the frequency range as it felt with the Epos Epic 2's and the Q300's. And this is all right out of the box! Hopefully sound will only improve further. If it goes the opposite way though and the treble becomes more pronounced over time, I will not be happy!

The only advantage I can think of the Epos Epic 2's is that the bass was more punchy and defined (although bizarrely not as deep as the R100's, which are half their size). They really do excel in this area. Everything else though, R100's come out on top. And they look gorgeous too.

The current setup as a whole produces a lush, smooth, detailed, refined and musical sound. If I had the budget and the space, I'd be all over some R500's or R700's but that can wait a few years, for now I am satisfied. It's been an expensive, frustrating experience to get here but I'm glad I persisted (both financially and time wise) rather than settling for a sound that I just wasnt happy with.