Monitor Audio RX8 - B&W CM9 - KEF R700 - FOCAL836v - TANNOY DC6T SE

L00k_C

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I am in the process of buying a pair of speakers from the above speaker list...

I would appreciate everyone's opinion..Do some of them stand above others??? Are they all considered mid-range speakers (price & quality wise)??

Room 3mWx4mLx3mH

Mainly rock, pop, modern, acoustic sounds and some classical ones.. I like a bit of extra bass

Thanks
 

Frank Harvey

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The Tannoys and the KEF's benefit from being a coincident design - it doesn't matter how close you sit near them, the majority of the frequency range will come from a single point, reducing phasing and lobing issues. The closer you sit to a conventional speaker, the more important the listening height becomes, but even then, moving slightly can change the sound you hear.

The Tannoys are probably slightly leaner in comparison to the B&W's and the KEF's, so placement should be a little easier. But, if you like bass, then the B&W's, KEF's, and MA's should please you. As long as you have a good enough amp to keep the bass in check, of course, otherwise things might sound a little confused and ill defined.

I can't really give much of an opinion on the Focals as I have not heard enough of them to form a reliable opinion, and I don't know the model numbers of what I have heard. The main thing that struck me at the time was an "energetic" treble.
 

CnoEvil

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I would say this to you

- Don't worry what we think, as we all have different favorites

- If you don't like the way a speaker sounds - cost doesn't come into it

- The only thing that matters, is matching the amp to the speakers to give a sound that gives you the most enjoyment.

- You have a good list, so see which works best with your amp, in your room.
 

L00k_C

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I read a lot about 'boxiness' , 'overblown bass', 'forward', 'timing' etc,....that I would like to 'minimize'.

Apart from TANNOYS that I haven't heard all other actually make me 'smile' more or less, but I am not sure that I can SPOT ALL or MOST of defaults as an experience ear as you are can.... also all audition are in stores (unable to audition at home :( )

When you say 'capable' amp you mean a powerful one (in watts) or an expensive one or both?
 

Ben K.

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Can't compare the choice you have suggested but I'm a very happy owner of RX8.

They excel with dance music and hip hop which is mostly what I listen too. They are generally good with other genres but I do find with the occasional rock track can get a little shrill at times. I listen to a bit of queen myself and on the whole it's very good, it's just the odd track.

I must admit adding the arcam A38 made them sound much better in the bass than with a cheaper less powerful amp which I think is what David was getting at. My old amp was 50 per channel and this one is 110 but I think it also depends on other factors such as current but I'm not really sure.

Hope this helps. Enjoy your search!
 

Frank Harvey

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Not necessarily expensive, just capable.

Many better quality speakers are less of an easy load for a receiver to deal with. Most receivers are fine with 6 or 8 ohm speakers, but speakers that are rated at 4ohms, or drop to 4ohms somewhere along their frequency range (usually bass), can ask too much of the receiver and they can become unstable at higher volumes because it can't give what the speaker is asking of it. If the speaker is also of a low sensitivity, this can only make things worse.

Receivers that are able to deal with these types of speakers tend to have better and more stable amplification, which does tend to come at a price. I find that the more stable receivers are around the £1k price point, which is where they start to deal with more demanding speakers, particularly 4ohm rated ones. They better able to produce transients in soundtracks, and have greater control over the speaker, allowing to 'start and stop' quicker. A receiver has to do this for five or even seven channels, and when you're adding in inefficient speakers or awkward loads, this can become too demanding for a budget receiver to cope with.

"Boxiness" is a speaker issue. If the speaker isn't well braced internally, or if the cabinet produces unwanted colorations, it is classed as boxy. This type of cabinet tends to 'give away' a speaker's position, spoiling the illusion of the three dimensional image that the drivers are trying to create. This can affect the speaker's ability to appear "transparent".

"Overblown bass" can be due to a couple of things. It can be inherent in a speaker's design to produce a lot of bass, and if the measurements show a big hump in the bass area, that's overblown. Obviously, a flat response is desired. This could also be a room issue, which can usually be minimised with the room EQ control on the AV receiver. It can also come about when an amplifier hasn't got enough control over the speaker's bass. There is a measurement for this which is called damping factor, but manufacturers only quote damping factor at a single frequency, which is pretty useless as it is a variable factor that changes with frequency. A high quoted damping factor may sound good on paper, but it doesn't tell you if the amplifier can keep low bass under control.

"Forward" is often mistook for 'bright', and bright is often mistook for 'harsh'. These three are all very different. There are plenty of amplifiers out there that sound a little soft and warm, which tends to smother detail across the entire frequency range. This can give a smooth or laid back impression. A more neutral amplifier can sound more 'forward' because there is less bass smothering and softening things, so it sounds like the while image is pushed further forward in comparison. You tend to find this with Class D amplifiers and lean sounding amplification like the Cyrus integrated amplifiers from years ago. These sort of amps do need more care when partnering with speakers so as not to come across as bright. 'Bright' is a lively treble, some may say 'extended'. This can be good for low level listening, and examples of this are the PMC DB1i speakers. It is a character that some like, some don't. And harsh is just plain unlistenable, bordering on headache inducing over a period of time. This tends to appear in the lower treble region, far below the frequencies that make something sound bright. Harsh is a very overused term as many people assume it means the same as bright.

A speaker can give the impression of better "timing" if it doesn't possess an overblown bass or a particularly extended bass. They can give the impression of sounding 'faster' than a bassy speaker. Put very simply. Very responsive speakers with extremely light drivers can also give this impression, as it can react quicker than a speaker with larger, heavier drive units.
 

L00k_C

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Ben K. said:
They excel with dance music and hip hop which is mostly what I listen too. They are generally good with other genres but I do find with the occasional rock track can get a little shrill at times. I listen to a bit of queen myself and on the whole it's very good, it's just the odd track.

I would mostly listening to rock and this is a bit worrying..

Furthermore from reviews I found they say and I quote 'Overblown bass hampers timing and rhythm'. Did you find that as well?

Arcam I believe is the way to go with these speakers....

Have you expanded it to HT as well?
 

L00k_C

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FrankHarveyHiFi said:
Not necessarily expensive, just capable.

Many better quality speakers are less of an easy load for a receiver to deal with. Most receivers are fine with 6 or 8 ohm speakers, but speakers that are rated at 4ohms, or drop to 4ohms somewhere along their frequency range (usually bass), can ask too much of the receiver and they can become unstable at higher volumes because it can't give what the speaker is asking of it. If the speaker is also of a low sensitivity, this can only make things worse.

Receivers that are able to deal with these types of speakers tend to have better and more stable amplification, which does tend to come at a price. I find that the more stable receivers are around the £1k price point, which is where they start to deal with more demanding speakers, particularly 4ohm rated ones. They better able to produce transients in soundtracks, and have greater control over the speaker, allowing to 'start and stop' quicker. A receiver has to do this for five or even seven channels, and when you're adding in inefficient speakers or awkward loads, this can become too demanding for a budget receiver to cope with.

"Boxiness" is a speaker issue. If the speaker isn't well braced internally, or if the cabinet produces unwanted colorations, it is classed as boxy. This type of cabinet tends to 'give away' a speaker's position, spoiling the illusion of the three dimensional image that the drivers are trying to create. This can affect the speaker's ability to appear "transparent".

"Overblown bass" can be due to a couple of things. It can be inherent in a speaker's design to produce a lot of bass, and if the measurements show a big hump in the bass area, that's overblown. Obviously, a flat response is desired. This could also be a room issue, which can usually be minimised with the room EQ control on the AV receiver. It can also come about when an amplifier hasn't got enough control over the speaker's bass. There is a measurement for this which is called damping factor, but manufacturers only quote damping factor at a single frequency, which is pretty useless as it is a variable factor that changes with frequency. A high quoted damping factor may sound good on paper, but it doesn't tell you if the amplifier can keep low bass under control.

"Forward" is often mistook for 'bright', and bright is often mistook for 'harsh'. These three are all very different. There are plenty of amplifiers out there that sound a little soft and warm, which tends to smother detail across the entire frequency range. This can give a smooth or laid back impression. A more neutral amplifier can sound more 'forward' because there is less bass smothering and softening things, so it sounds like the while image is pushed further forward in comparison. You tend to find this with Class D amplifiers and lean sounding amplification like the Cyrus integrated amplifiers from years ago. These sort of amps do need more care when partnering with speakers so as not to come across as bright. 'Bright' is a lively treble, some may say 'extended'. This can be good for low level listening, and examples of this are the PMC DB1i speakers. It is a character that some like, some don't. And harsh is just plain unlistenable, bordering on headache inducing over a period of time. This tends to appear in the lower treble region, far below the frequencies that make something sound bright. Harsh is a very overused term as many people assume it means the same as bright.

A speaker can give the impression of better "timing" if it doesn't possess an overblown bass or a particularly extended bass. They can give the impression of sounding 'faster' than a bassy speaker. Put very simply. Very responsive speakers with extremely light drivers can also give this impression, as it can react quicker than a speaker with larger, heavier drive units.

wow... thanks very much FRANK :cheers:

I am printing thsi for better reading and memorising it...
 

CnoEvil

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David has fleshed out what I was trying to get at.

All of the above speakers can be made sound poor, if they are badly placed, in an acoustically live room and matched to the wrong amplifier.

Focal and MA can come across as a bit bright if matched to an amp with the same characteristics. Speakers like the Kef can come across as boomy if poorly positioned or with an amp that can't keep it under control. If the Tannoy's are matched with an amp of a similar character, their tendancy towards leaness is exacerbated.

Into this complicated mix is personal taste, which can swing the whole decision one way or the other.......if you fully understand the type of sound that you like, it makes it easier to narrow down your choice........eg. for me, it would be easy, as it would be the R700s all the way (provided the amp could handle them).
 

L00k_C

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CnoEvil said:
David has fleshed out what I was trying to get at.

All of the above speakers can be made sound poor, if they are badly placed, in an acoustically live room and matched to the wrong amplifier.

Focal and MA can come across as a bit bright if matched to an amp with the same characteristics. Speakers like the Kef can come across as boomy if poorly positioned or with an amp that can't keep it under control. If the Tannoy's are matched with an amp of a similar character, their tendancy towards leaness is exacerbated.

Into this complicated mix is personal taste, which can swing the whole decision one way or the other.......if you fully understand the type of sound that you like, it makes it easier to narrow down your choice........eg. for me, it would be easy, as it would be the R700s all the way (provided the amp could handle them).

Thanks Cno... So, sorry for asking again, I guess amplifiers in the market do have a 'kind' of unformal label of what they actuaally are 'bright' etc....
 

csq2

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I am also in the middle of upgrading my speakers. I have listened to all of the speakers mentioned above because they were all listed as my top choices.

In order my best to worse:

1. KEF R700 (Tight controlled bass; excellent dynamics; rolled-off treble)

2. Focal 836V (Best for rock IMO; Most involving and musical)

3. B&W CM9 (Loose, weak bass; coarse treble)

4. Tannoy DCT6 SE (Colored mids with an exposed top end)

5. MA RX8 (Looose, weak bass; bright forward treble)

Although R700 is the best sounding, the Focal is more suited towards your listening style as the R700 tends to make drums sound monotone with its less detailed bass.
 

L00k_C

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csq2 said:
I am also in the middle of upgrading my speakers. I have listened to all of the speakers mentioned above because they were all listed as my top choices.

In order my best to worse:

1. KEF R700 (Tight controlled bass; excellent dynamics; rolled-off treble)

2. Focal 836V (Best for rock IMO; Most involving and musical)

3. B&W CM9 (Loose, weak bass; coarse treble)

4. Tannoy DCT6 SE (Colored mids with an exposed top end)

5. MA RX8 (Looose, weak bass; bright forward treble)

Although R700 is the best sounding, the Focal is more suited towards your listening style as the R700 tends to make drums sound monotone with its less detailed bass.

mm interesting... thanks
 

CnoEvil

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L00k_C said:
Thanks Cno... So, sorry for asking again, I guess amplifiers in the market do have a 'kind' of unformal label of what they actuaally are 'bright' etc....

There is no need to apologize......and it's a good question.

There is a fair bit of subjectivity to it, and you also get brands that get labelled as having a certain sound, even though they have moved on from that.

One person's bright, is another's neutral.....but there are generally accepted characteristics of amps, which get talked about. Different classes of amp (A / AB / B / D) and types (SS / Valve / Hybrid) often share certain characteristics.

IME. The only way to get your personal "map" to guide you through, is to listen to as much as possible.
 

Exshopguy

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I'm not sure if it's allowed to be mentioned here but the latest copy of Hi-Fi News has a group test of £1000 floorstanders. The Monitor Audio's and Tannoy's both featured amongst others if my memory serves me correctly. I had a skim through in WHSmith's so can't remember 100% might be worth a read for comparisons though.
 

L00k_C

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Exshopguy said:
I'm not sure if it's allowed to be mentioned here but the latest copy of Hi-Fi News has a group test of £1000 floorstanders. The Monitor Audio's and Tannoy's both featured amongst others if my memory serves me correctly. I had a skim through in WHSmith's so can't remember 100% might be worth a read for comparisons though.

:beer:
 

peterpan

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Don't forget your personal taste. I find the Tannoy has a too bright ans shout top. The Focal for me is too bright. And forget the MA RX 8. The RX 6 is the better choice. And yes; there are people who find it too bright. But i think it is also depending on your room. You must listen the speakers in your own room!
 

L00k_C

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I liked R700 but I do not know how R900 sound.... I might like some more bass.... BUT WOULD I LOOSE IN SOMETHING MORE IMPORTANT? like timing etc???
 

megatombomb

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Hi there i can comment on the Monitor Audio RX6's although you havent shortlisted them,

I have so far only used them as the front LR of a 5.1 channel home cinema setup driven by a Pioneer SC-LX85 but i intend to buy a dedicated integrated amp to hopefully add some warth and more bass depth to the sound (as the Pioneer has a lean character which would be described i think as forward and bright - but not harsh to these ears - great for movies as very exciting!) This has led to to think they are quite a revealing speaker and i am surprised how nice this setup is to listen too when using a Denon DBP2012ud as the source for CD/SACD as i said just feel it lacks in bass abit for pure 2 channel sound.

Also on the train home tonite i read the latest copy of Hi-Fi news magazine and it was interesting to find that they found the opposite results to what hi-fi when concerning the Bass from the MA RX8. To semi-quote the review... 'The RX8's are superbly dynamic, punchy and love to play loud. They really come into their own when fed with pounding synth beats and faster-paced tracks. With abit of rhythm to grab hold of, the Silver RX8s needed no encouragment to find their feet and boogie. Even better, this was not all bang and boom, as the bass offered superlative levels of grip, punch and detail, even edging ahead of the Tannoy DC6Tse in this respect.'

I might recommend a demo as i'm very happy with my RX6's and would hope the RX8's to sound similar except with extra bass which i think may not be a bad thing!

Happy huntiing.
 

L00k_C

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megatombomb said:
Hi there i can comment on the Monitor Audio RX6's although you havent shortlisted them,

I have so far only used them as the front LR of a 5.1 channel home cinema setup driven by a Pioneer SC-LX85 but i intend to buy a dedicated integrated amp to hopefully add some warth and more bass depth to the sound (as the Pioneer has a lean character which would be described i think as forward and bright - but not harsh to these ears - great for movies as very exciting!) This has led to to think they are quite a revealing speaker and i am surprised how nice this setup is to listen too when using a Denon DBP2012ud as the source for CD/SACD as i said just feel it lacks in bass abit for pure 2 channel sound.

Also on the train home tonite i read the latest copy of Hi-Fi news magazine and it was interesting to find that they found the opposite results to what hi-fi when concerning the Bass from the MA RX8. To semi-quote the review... 'The RX8's are superbly dynamic, punchy and love to play loud. They really come into their own when fed with pounding synth beats and faster-paced tracks. With abit of rhythm to grab hold of, the Silver RX8s needed no encouragment to find their feet and boogie. Even better, this was not all bang and boom, as the bass offered superlative levels of grip, punch and detail, even edging ahead of the Tannoy DC6Tse in this respect.'

I might recommend a demo as i'm very happy with my RX6's and would hope the RX8's to sound similar except with extra bass which i think may not be a bad thing!

Happy huntiing.

Thanks. I opt for more bass thts why I am looking the 8's rather than the 6's
 

Ben K.

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I do not find the bass overblown just deep and powerful. I don't understand why there is so much negativity around the RX8 mostly concerning the bass. It makes me wonder how many people have listened and how many are jumping on the bandwagon? I'm not saying they're for everyone but if you like extra bass compared to the average speaker they are well worth an audition. If anything I think the weakness is a slightly metallic sounding treble but other than that they are very strong in the midrange and bass.

Trust your own ears and buy the ones that put a smile on your face!
 
A

Anonymous

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Hi all,

I recently bought a pair of speakers and David,himself, was there to help(how cool is that). I was almost certain to get the Atc scm11 as I went to the frank harvey in Coventry. I took my own amp with me, a good old MF E10, so first we listened to the ATC and straight away I could tell that my amp was struggling to drive them, 40watts PC was never going to be enough and I wasn't prepared to buy another amp. Pmc db1i was next, they sounded great but I have reservations about small speakers. Then we listen to few tracks using proc studio 115, they too sounded good but I felt they weren't able to justify thier price tag, so we moved on to the CM5 and i found what I was looking for but I wanted a different brand this time having previously owned and loved the 601s so we gave Kef r300 a go TBH I didn't find much, if anything, that separated CM5 from R300 except thier size latter being bigger. By than I pretty much made my mind up but we listened to the MA gx 50 anyway , I found them a little too bright for my taste.

I didn't buy the r300 they might have been a little too big for where I normally position my speakers. I might have been a wee bit biased too because I am used to BW sound.

I am now a happy owner of CM5 thanks to David for his patients and support.

So the moral of the story is : no matter how much advice you can get from here, it is you who will have to make the final decision and for that I would recommend you do what I did. Take your own amp and few cds and have a good listen to all the speakers you have mentioned and what better place to go to than Frank Harvey in Coventry.
 

Sliced Bread

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L00k_C said:
csq2 said:
I am also in the middle of upgrading my speakers. I have listened to all of the speakers mentioned above because they were all listed as my top choices.

In order my best to worse:

1. KEF R700 (Tight controlled bass; excellent dynamics; rolled-off treble)

2. Focal 836V (Best for rock IMO; Most involving and musical)

3. B&W CM9 (Loose, weak bass; coarse treble)

4. Tannoy DCT6 SE (Colored mids with an exposed top end)

5. MA RX8 (Looose, weak bass; bright forward treble)

Although R700 is the best sounding, the Focal is more suited towards your listening style as the R700 tends to make drums sound monotone with its less detailed bass.

mm interesting... thanks

This is why I strongly recommend hearing the speakers for yourself.

The CM9's and RX8's references above as "weak bass", is suprisingly against the grain. Reading reviews (and from pesonal experience) bass is these speakers forte. Big bold and very well controlled. Not to mention the cm9's midrange is hypnotic.

Both are fantastic speakers.
 

Sliced Bread

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aniskg said:
So the moral of the story is : no matter how much advice you can get from here, it is you who will have to make the final decision and for that I would recommend you do what I did. Take your own amp and few cds and have a good listen to all the speakers you have mentioned and what better place to go to than Frank Harvey in Coventry.

Exactamondo!

I've lost count of the amount of times I've demoed (is that a real word?) a piece of equipment based on recomendation and found that not only did I not like the sound, but the sound was completely different to my interpretation of the description.
 

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