Misadventure with vinyl upgrade - now resolved

[mgkwackerd]

Was without a T/T for about 12 months when my Linn LP12 failed. I sold it for spares/repair.

Then, as I have over 900 LP’s, decided to get another T/T, bought a Rega RP3, with Elys 2, and Rega Fono MK2 preamp, didn’t like that, so bought an Inspire Apollo double plinth full Acrylic, with Audiomods V arm, and Ortofon 2M blue, nice, sill with Fono MK2.

Well my vinyl collection is what I bought personally in the 70’s & 80’s, all new, and none are pristine, half are good, rest, average or worse.

Amplification, Primare pre 32, and 2 x Primare A34.2 power amps monoblocked into Kef R500’s, very revealing and detailed, much better than my previous Cyrus DACXP+, and Mono X200’s monoblocked. The Primare’s are three times as powerful, at 550w/channel.

Digital sources are Sonneteer Byron, Primare CD 22 & Cyrus CDi, all excellent and superior to my T/T.

So in an attempt to get my vinyl closer to my CD, I started the “upgrade” First a Lehmann Black Cube SE with Ortofon Quintet bronze, recessed and warm, didn’t like. Next Trichord Dino with + and Ortofon Quintet Black, nicer but again a tadge too warm for me, but not recessed, far more open, not worth the £1250 outlay.

Now this is the misadventure !!!! Both these combo’s were EXTREMELY critical of the LP, massive “cracks” and large pops, which actually frightened you to jump whilst listening to your music, even the entry and release from grooves made massively unacceptable large “cracks” that I was afraid would damage my speakers, and in the end changed the source input to protect my system, when dropping the stylus or lifting it.

This can’t be right!!

After much head scratching, I put the Fono back on with the 2M blue, and normality was restored, yes the detail and depth, was gone, but the cracks and pops were negligible and made the music engaging and fun to listen to, which is what I want, not to be made to jump, from lightening type “cracks” and fear of damaging my system.

Has anyone else experienced this, or do you think it may be my D class amplification, as at the moment I’m not really interested in trying anything else, as I’d rather have less retrieval and “comfort” than aggressive cracks and pops, I just want to enjoy my music and if that means sticking with lesser, then fine.

Any comments appreciated, as it would be nicer to go to another level, but only if it is a pleasant listening experience!!!!

 

[Frank Harvey]

It's definitely not Class D amplification! The only thing I can think of is that one of the items was faulty. Crackles and pops tend to be less prominent on better equipment.

 

[mgkwackerd]

That's what I thought, out of the two the Lehmann was the quieter, but still way worse than the Rega Fono, the Trichord Dino was disastrous.

I wasted a week trying all these, and both the Lehmann and Dino were put on the 2M blue, same problem, so it isn't the cartridges.

Anyone recommend a preamp that may be quiet, regarding "cracks & pops" but full and detailed, to compliment a MM or MC cartridge up to about £750 tops, amp about same.

I was underwhelmed by both the Quintet Bronze & Black, although they were both fairly new and I know MC's need about 50 hours to come good.

 

[thescarletpronster]

... and Rega Fono MK2 preamp,

I may be missing something here, but the Rega Fono MK2 is a phono stage, not a pre-amp. I realise that part of what is does is to amplify the signal up to line-in levels, but doesn't it need a separate pre-amp before plugging in to the power amp? I wonder whether this might be why you're getting a big difference in results between this and the two pre-amps you're comparing it with. I think (although I'm no expert by any means) that for best results, you need to plug the TT into the Fono, *then* into a pre-amp, *then* into the power amp.

Another thing phono stages do is to apply the RIAA curve to cancel out the signal disortion pressed into vinyl records in order to allow more music to be fitted onto a disc. Without a phono stage, there will be far too much high frequencies and very feeble bass. If your pre-amps don't have an on-board phono stage, that will be why they don't sound good. Try TT -> Fono -> pre-amp -> power amp and see what it sounds like.

 

[thescarletpronster]

Probably the prominence of crackles etc was because the signal wasn't being properly modified and amplified to line-in levels before going into the pre-amp, so you were having to turn the volume right up. Next to the (very weak) phono signal, the crackles would have sounded *very* loud.

 

[CnoEvil]

Amplification, Primare pre 32, and 2 x Primare A34.2 power amps monoblocked into Kef R500’s, very revealing and detailed, much better than my previous Cyrus DACXP+, and Mono X200’s monoblocked. The Primare’s are three times as powerful, at 550w/channel.

Any comments appreciated, as it would be nicer to go to another level, but only if it is a pleasant listening experience!!!!

IME. The R500s are really good speakers and work well with good Class D amplification.

The nature of very revealing, clean amplification, is that it won't mask the cracks and pops.

FWIW. I think you should consider going back to a LP12, as it obviously hit the spot in the past. I have been out of vinyl for some time, but the LP12 was my TT of choice.

 

[mgkwackerd]

Sorry if not clear, T/T into the fono, which goes into the pre 32 then into the A34.2's, how I've always connected my pre/powers and T/T, long time since I had an integrated

I can barely have the volume over 36 on a 1 to 80 scale

 

[mgkwackerd]

Cno, I think you are right, these A34.2's are stunning and make my previous Mono X200's, seem like toys.

The Sonneteer, is simply stunning and the Kefs are massively open, and extremely revealing.

This kind of reveal is something few other people are aware of in terms of D class amps.

My Linn, had the valhalla board fail, I took it into a dealer (unamed) and was told about £600 to repair, so I sold it with Ittok arm and dynavector 20 cart, what an idiot !!! since found out it would only have cost about £300, with a complete service and new springs and grommets fitted, double idiot !!! Hindsight !!!!

thanks for the reply.

 

[CnoEvil]

My Linn, had the valhalla board fail, I took it into a dealer (unamed) and was told about £600 to repair, so I sold it with Ittok arm and dynavector 20 cart, what an idiot !!! since found out it would only have cost about £300, with a complete service and new springs and grommets fitted, double idiot !!! Hindsight !!!!

thanks for the reply.

My old Linn from the 80s (Ittok / Asak / Nirvana / Valhalla) had a slight mid-range bloom that I liked, so was not strictly neutral. Modern Linns don't have this to the same extent, but still retain an addictive musicality that I think would work well in your system.

People either love what the LP12 does (and find nothing else will quite do), or they hate it......if you are in the former camp, you may well find that you travel round in a circle and back to the LP12.

 

[mgkwackerd]

Mine was bought may 1989, and I loved it, and yes this more "analytical" analogue it not quite up my street, may have a complete rethink, and who knows, ??

Mine always ran on cyrus amps, and G/Slee stage, may revisit Linn/Cyrus if I can't find solution to this.

I also run a Primare I22 with a Rega Saturn, into Kef LS50's as well, may change this to accomodate a Linn !!!

 

[chebby]

You say that your collection contains 'fair or worse' LPs and that none are pristine.

My upgrade would have started at source with professional cleaning (preferably on a Keith Monks machine) for those albums with no apparent physical damage and outright replacement for the worst examples wherever economically reasonable to do so. (I am assuming that not all of your 900 LPs are rare or irreplaceable.)

Not quite sure why you started on the hardware first (phono stages, amps etc.) when, by your own admission, the condition of the collection is so variable.

 

[Frank Harvey]

I can barely have the volume over 36 on a 1 to 80 scale

That doesn't sound right to me. Was there some sort of output gain on the phono stage that you had the problem with?

 

[CnoEvil]

Mine was bought may 1989, and I loved it, and yes this more "analytical" analogue it not quite up my street, may have a complete rethink, and who knows, ??

Mine always ran on cyrus amps, and G/Slee stage, may revisit Linn/Cyrus if I can't find solution to this.

I also run a Primare I22 with a Rega Saturn, into Kef LS50's as well, may change this to accomodate a Linn !!!

I never really got on with modern Linn amplification ie. since they changed from Kairn / LK Power Amps and Klout, but recently have liked the synergy with the R Series.....maybe something to think about, especially as the DSMs incorporate the Linn Streamers (best I've heard). They also have good Phono stages.

Re a phono stage, what about something from EAR Yoshino (834).

Ps. I also have LS50s.....amazing (big sounding) little speakers....I can imagine how good they sound with the Saturn and the i22.

 

[mgkwackerd]

Both the Lehmann black cube SE and Trichord Dino with +, had gain and loading.

I set them correctly for load and gain, the MM was about 36 the MC about 40, tried different combo's, best to stay with mfrs figs, as these seem to work best.

Rega has neither and that is listenable up to about 50.

CD source, old 80's AAD again about 50, modern compressed 36-40

 

[Al ears]

You say that your collection contains 'fair or worse' LPs and that none are pristine.

My upgrade would have started at source with professional cleaning (preferably on a Keith Monks machine) for those albums with no apparent physical damage and outright replacement for the worst examples wherever economically reasonable to do so. (I am assuming that not all of your 900 LPs are rare or irreplaceable.)

Not quite sure why you started on the hardware first (phono stages, amps etc.) when, by your own admission, the condition of the collection is so variable.

Exactly!

 

[mgkwackerd]

Out of my collection, none have physical damage, all track perfectly, and I'm critical, some, about 70, are great pressings, no ticks or pops whatsoever, then about 700 are good, cleaned 10 years ago, the rest average or worse, some of these albums have been played maybe a hundred times, I don't collect them, I LISTEN to them, that's why I bought them. Only about 50 are rare.

I'm not that concerned about the LP's, just the jump to about £12-1300 has not brought the benefits I expected with a new phono stage and cartridge, especially the cracks that are genuinly like lightening claps. I've had a T/T since I was 14, that's when I started buying LP's.

I also have nearly 3000 red book CD's about 400 are duplicates of Vinyl.

CD is my preferred choice, I just wanted to get my vinyl closer in listening terms, I play what I have, I have not bought a vinyl album in 25 years. Just wanted some advice to get an improvement over what I have now, but without exacerbated cracks and pops.

 

[mgkwackerd]

what's that supposed to mean ? Very helpful !!

My 700 good are probably better than most peoples "pristine" all kept in anti static sleeves for the last, 25-40 years, all professionally cleaned 10 years ago, when I moved house, cost me £550 for 690 if I remember correctly and they were packed into 3 custom fit double seal boxes to transport, still in now.

They CANNOT be described as anything other than good, when they've been played as many times as they have, ~~ mind never on anything worse than a Rega planer 3, my first T/T, and never tracked more than 2.2 g.

If you can't help solve my problem why post, I want a good stage/cart, about £1500 with no massive cracks, that will perform nearly as good as my digital sources, that's all I asked, with as much info as possible to help with any suggestions.

some people are just up their arses to criticise, rather than help, from what I can forage from this forum, thanks in anticipation.

BTW I only have 4 scratched records, and I only keep them for sentimental reasons, I do not play them.

 

[CnoEvil]

Another brand to look at, as well as EAR Yoshino, would be Croft.http://www.divineaudio.co.uk/brands/croft-acoustics

 

[mgkwackerd]

Thanks Cno, got a bit hot under the collar, as two posters are blaming my records.

Been doing this for 45 years now, I know its not my records, I was thinking of giving up and just getting the best MM (2M Black) or High ouput MC (dyna DV10) and stick with the Fono, but my head knows there's something better out there, just need to find it.

Thanks for your input, greatly appreciated, and will follow up on monday by trying some other stages on home demo, and sale or return, Patience !!!

 

[chebby]

Thanks Cno, got a bit hot under the collar, as two posters are blaming my records.

My apologies.

I was basing my cleaning recommendation on some of your original comments ...

....none are pristine, half are good, rest, average or worse ...

... Both these combo’s were EXTREMELY critical of the LP, massive “cracks” and large pops, which actually frightened you to jump whilst listening to your music, even the entry and release from grooves made massively unacceptable large “cracks” ...

I hadn't realised (because at that point you hadn't told us) that your records were in better condition than most people's definition of 'pristine' and that you had already had them professionally cleaned some time ago.

 

[CnoEvil]

Thanks Cno, got a bit hot under the collar, as two posters are blaming my records.

I strongly suspect, that given who the 2 posters are, they were genuinely trying to help - forums can be tricky places to fully understand the knowledge and experience of the person asking the question.

The EAR stuff is stocked by this crowd:http://www.jordanacoustics.co.uk/turntables.php?manufacturer=EAR%20Yoshino&value=4&category=Phono%20Amplifiers

 

[mgkwackerd]

Chebby, thanks.

my good is some peoples pristine, I only handle them in white cotton/silk blend gloves, and only about a hundred were subjected to felt mats, I went cork for about 25 years, then the last 12 years, acrimat.

But, some may have been played over a hundred times and are bound to have suffered, but I've "NEVER" experienced this massive cracking, as I got with the Lehmann and Trichord phono stages, that's why I posted on here to see if anyone can help.

I'm puzzled, anyways, apology accepted.

 

[chebby]

You might want to try out the Rega Aria MM/MC phono-pre at £798 (roughly on budget).

Whatever they are getting right with the more 'humble' Fono, might be even 'righter' with the Aria.

This reviewer found the Ortofon 2M Black to be a particularly good partnering cartridge. (He also makes the point that the Rega Aria is 'incredibly quiet'.)

 

[mgkwackerd]

Thanks, a list is being formed, another poster on another forum has suggested the Primare R32, so now I have 4 to look at and hopefully demo. (the incedibly quiet is interesting) Also shows how more heads, the better. Even though I own a Primare I22, Pre 32, 2x A34.2's and a CD22, I didn't know they made a phono stage!!

There has got to be one, that improves my T/T, as it is a very good T/T and the Audiomods V is a highly re-engineered arm, that should be capable of handling any cartridge sub £1k

Looking forward to next week and implementing my new shared idea's, some dealer is going to hate me, LOL.

 

[CnoEvil]

Thanks, a list is being formed....

Here's another brand for your list: http://www.analogueseduction.net/icon-audio.html

Review (test winner): http://www.hi-fiworld.co.uk/index.php/vinyl-lp/29-phonostages/168-phono-stages-group-test.html?start=3

Review of the EAR-Yoshino: http://www.soundstage.com/revequip/tony02.htm