Mains cables / Mains blocks

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Just thumbing through 'The Ultimate Guide' and come across mains cables and Blocks/conditioners.

Nat sure of the difference? THe powermax plus cable cleans from the wall socket to the unit?

The TACIMA mains cleaner seems to do essentially the same thing.

Confused!!

Also, if I was to get a aftermarket mains cable, do i need one for the amp, the cd player, or both?

Thanks
 

Don Guess

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I was given a £50 mains cable, chucked in as part of a deal. I tried it first on my dac. I could hear no difference at all. I put it on my amp and I swear it's better. I dont know if I could ABX it though. The difference is very small...
I think you just have to try it out for yourself and decide..
 

clearer_audio

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Hello Black Knight,

The Powermax Plus will not clean the mains supply like the Tacima but instead allows better power transfer than a standard power cable. Twisted conductors in the power cable may cancel a small amount of Radio Frequency Interference (RFI). There are other power cables available - like our Silver-line Power Cable - that offer a greater degree of filtering. The Tacima in comparision has a basic but effective filtering network which helps remove noise that is on the mains supply.

You can expect improvements when using a high-performance power cable on both your CD player and amplifier. The most significant improvement is usually gained on the CD player. However with a cable like the Powermax Plus that is not shielded you may find a more significant improvement on your amplifier.

Hope this helps.

Kind regards,
Darren
 
A

Anonymous

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So mains cable improves power transfer.

Mains conditioner filters the supply.

I guess you need both for optimum performance then.

What does the mains conditioner actually filter? I thought you were supposed to keep things original and not strip anything away!
 

fr0g

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[quote user="Black Knight"]
So mains cable improves power transfer.

Mains conditioner filters the supply.

I guess you need both for optimum performance then.

What does the mains conditioner actually filter? I thought you were supposed to keep things original and not strip anything away!
[/quote]

Best bet is to try it... but blind test it too, ie test it in a situation where you have no idea which cable you are listening to
.The effectiveness of these upgrades is one of the most hotly disputed things on this type of forum. Many (such as me) believe that upgraded power cables do nothing but look pretty, and waste money, whilst some swear by them.
 

professorhat

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What annoys me is, the majority of people who say they can't do anything to improve the sound have never actually tried them. Fair play to fr0g, he admits he hasn't tried them, but won't dissuade you from doing a proper test yourself. Other forum members will actually attempt to ridicule you for doing this though, because they have all the scientific explanations as to why it won't make a difference, but more often than not, refuse to divulge this priviledged information to the masses...
 

clearer_audio

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[quote user="Black Knight"]
So mains cable improves power transfer.

Mains conditioner filters the supply.

I guess you need both for optimum performance then.

What does the mains conditioner actually filter? I thought you were supposed to keep things original and not strip anything away!
[/quote]

Hello Black Knight,

Indeed you are correct; but you do not necessarily need both for optimal peformance as conditioning does not always yield desirable results. Our customers usually start with power cables first as these give the most significant improvement and then look at power blocks/conditioners last.

The degree of filtering will depend upon the specification and performance of the mains conditioner. Basic designs like the Tacima feature a simple capacitor and choke network which helps to reduce common mode and differential mode noise along with other noise such as Radio Frequency Interference (RFI). Higher-end designs will utilise more sophisticated circuitry and may feature components such as isolation transformers to eliminate noise; and some designs even re-generate the power completely.

The filtering networks in conditioners - especially in entry-level designs - usually have limited power output and can therefore restrict power transfer. Some people find that conditioners will reduce the drive, energy and musicality of their systems. Results depend upon the quality of your power and also your system so auditioning is worthwhile.

It is advisable to use shielded power cables when using conditioning equipment. If you use unshielded power cables they can become contaminated with airborne noise such as RFI after the power has been filtered. This noise will then be transferred to your components thus undoing all the good work done.

If you want to be scientifically objective then you can conduct double-blind tests on these products like frOg suggests.

Hope this helps.

Kind regards,
Darren
 

fr0g

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[quote user="professorhat"]What annoys me is, the majority of people who say they can't do anything to improve the sound have never actually tried them. Fair play to fr0g, he admits he hasn't tried them, but won't dissuade you from doing a proper test yourself. Other forum members will actually attempt to ridicule you for doing this though, because they have all the scientific explanations as to why it won't make a difference, but more often than not, refuse to divulge this priviledged information to the masses...[/quote]

To be fair. While he is quite course in his manner, I understand where he is coming from. I guess I too equate mains cables with homeopathic medicine(Yes that medicine with ZERO active ingredient that relys on the 'memory' of water)... You dont have to test it to know it cant work.. And although that sounds pretty direct and maybe rude. Its just an honest assesment of what I also feel... I will add, that if a properly documented, scientific double blind test is made available, then I may think about taking a look myself...Unfortunately the documented tests I have seen so far have given negative results...
 

fr0g

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[quote user="JohnDuncan"]What about the Canadian University one that showed that there was a difference?[/quote]
It wasn't a listening test, and they didn't use a control. For a university 'experiment' it was shockingly poor.

Just to add. You'll get a difference in impedance, conductance and inductance by lopping 10cm off your speaker cable, but I can guarantee that the result will be inaudible (unless your current cable is 10cm long ;)
 

fr0g

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[quote user="chebby"]"You dont have to test it to know it cant work"

Not a fan of the scientific method then?[/quote]
Quite the reverse, as you'll see from the rest of what I said. However I will let someone else do the testing on something I am fairly convinced about. If such testing proves me wrong I'll think again.
 

John Duncan

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I'm not going to start an argument (no, really
emotion-1.gif
), but isn't a 'measured' experiment better than a listening one, which can only be subjective? I'm not sure I agree there wasn't a control, but I agree that they were a bit like "ah well we couldn't measure above 10k so we left that out'
emotion-2.gif
. I'd like somebody to do it properly though.........
 

fr0g

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[quote user="JohnDuncan"]I'm not going to start an argument (no, really
emotion-1.gif
), but isn't a 'measured' experiment better than a listening one, which can only be subjective? I'm not sure I agree there wasn't a control, but I agree that they were a bit like "ah well we couldn't measure above 10k so we left that out'
emotion-2.gif
. I'd like somebody to do it properly though.........[/quote]
As I eluded to in my shortened speaker wire analogy, its all very well getting different measurements. But the main thing is "Are those differences audible"

Your left and right RCA leads will be 'different' on a small scale. Your speaker cable too. But the differences don't add up to anything audible. From memory, I think the same could be said of the 'differences' they found.
Have you a link to the original story?
 
A

Anonymous

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Homeopathic therapies are certainly not dismissed by the medical profession. Indeed there are many, many ongoing clinical trials which are assessing their possible benefit for many medical conditions ( eg eczema, atopic asthma ). I've known consultants suggest homeopathic treatment as an adjunct to conventional therapy for severe eczema. My point here is that whilst there is no conclusive evidence of the beneficial effects, the fact that some people seem to have benefited, has meant they are considered seriously, not dismissed out of hand. Maybe mains cables deserve the same serious consideration

[quote user="fr0g"]Yes that medicine with ZERO active ingredient[/quote]

Not absolute. Placebo effect of course is well known

[quote user="fr0g"]I will add, that if a properly documented, scientific double blind test is made available, then I may think about taking a look myself...Unfortunately the documented tests I have seen so far have given negative results...[/quote]

Fair enough. However the fact that there is no such evidence as yet could easily be explained by the limitations of our understanding and expertise. I.e there is an effect but we can't prove it yet hence the need for more research.
 
A

Anonymous

Guest
[quote user="professorhat"]What annoys me is, the majority of people who say they can't do anything to improve the sound have never actually tried them. Fair play to fr0g, he admits he hasn't tried them, but won't dissuade you from doing a proper test yourself. Other forum members will actually attempt to ridicule you for doing this though, because they have all the scientific explanations as to why it won't make a difference, but more often than not, refuse to divulge this priviledged information to the masses...[/quote]

Really don't want to get sucked into all this again but just for the record, I have a seperate spur from my consumer unit to a dedicated, unswitched socket. This made no difference to the sound, that I could detect. I have tried different, esoteric, mains leads because they were offerred as a free trial. These were tested both before and after the dedicated spur was installed. Again, no discernable difference in sound quality, to my ears, on my system. I have also taken this a step further and tried an isolation transformer which again, made no discernable difference. Finally, I have even experimented using a massive inverter to supply 240v AC from a bank of 12v lead acid batteries. This supply was completely independent of the house mains. Again, no discerable difference.

One thing that did have an effect was a surge limiter which cured the "clicking" I used to get when the fridge came on and I would always recommend the use of some sort of surge protection. However, I cannot honestly say that my system sounded any better or worse with the surge limiter installed.

So, on the one hand, I have the results of my own experimentation and trials which show no discernable difference in sound quality. Together with this, there is the scientific explanation, which I have previously posted, which explains why any difference would be so small as to be undectable, if not immeasurably small. On the other hand, there are those who believe that mains leads will make a difference but the only evidence I have of this is purely anecdotal. There are no technical explanations or scientific evidence, including blind ABX testing, which could explain why mains leads might make a difference. My personal belief therefore, is that the reasons why some people believe that mains leads make a difference, must be psychological rather than technical.

This is my personal belief and I'm not trying to force this opinion on anyone.

To pre empt the likely responses to this post, let me just say that my equipment is sufficiently "high end" to benefit from anything which would show any subtly differences, and my own ears and those of my family and friends are also young enough.

So, on the one hand, I have personal experience of evaluating mains leads
 

fr0g

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[quote user="JAXON5"]Homeopathic therapies are certainly not dismissed by the medical profession. Indeed there are many, many ongoing clinical trials which are assessing their possible benefit for many medical conditions ( eg eczema, atopic asthma ). I've known consultants suggest homeopathic treatment as an adjunct to conventional therapy for severe eczema. My point here is that whilst there is no conclusive evidence of the beneficial effects, the fact that some people seem to have benefited, has meant they are considered seriously, not dismissed out of hand. Maybe mains cables deserve the same serious consideration

[quote user="fr0g"]Yes that medicine with ZERO active ingredient[/quote]

Not absolute. Placebo effect of course is well known

[quote user="fr0g"]I will add, that if a properly documented, scientific double blind test is made available, then I may think about taking a look myself...Unfortunately the documented tests I have seen so far have given negative results...[/quote]

Fair enough. However the fact that there is no such evidence as yet could easily be explained by the limitations of our understanding and expertise. I.e there is an effect but we can't prove it yet hence the need for more research.[/quote]

Indeed. Homeopathic medicine can ONLY be placebo, as there is in fact zero active ingredient. The pill you take is simply a sugar tablet or whatever they use.
Strange thing is, I once tried these with no clue that I was doing. I have hayfever, and my mother used to sort out getting me tablets every summer. One summer she gave me a tub of tablets...I thought nothing of it, until a week later, streaming at the eyes and nose, sneezing and generally feeling rubbish, I asked her where the tablets were from, and it turned out they were from a 'health' shop...One quick trip to the pharmacy and a tub of proper medice later I was fine...
I should have sussed when I read the label "Take as many tablets as you require"

There was a serious scientific attempt to prove homeopathy could work, (and to win the ubiquitous Randi million), televised...It failed strangely enough.
 

fr0g

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[quote user="Clare Newsome"]
Dare I mention at this point (for the billionth time) that we blind test mains cables, judging the results on their audible effects (or lack of)?
emotion-2.gif


[/quote]

You did. But they are not scientifically documented. And to be quite blunt... :)
comments like "Offers plenty to like - smooth treble and deep bass, plus bags of details" for a POWER CABLE
make me cringe a little.
 
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Anonymous

Guest
[quote user="Clare Newsome"]

Dare I mention at this point (for the billionth time) that we blind test mains cables, judging the results on their audible effects (or lack of)?
emotion-2.gif


[/quote]

Have you tested Tesco's anti-surge socket strip ? It was a bit steep at £3.95 but I bit the bullet and bought one recently and not only did it make my system sound like a million dollars, much more detailed and open and sounding faster and more rhythmical, but it also made my hot water hotter at the same time. I really can't recommend it too highly. You sceptics can sneer all you like but I know I am right.

Regards Ed
 
A

Anonymous

Guest
There is some evidence that homeopathy may not just be placebo.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/7983994?ordinalpos=1&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsPanel.Pubmed_RVDocSum
bmed.Pubmed_ResultsPanel.Pubmed_RVDocSum

[quote user="fr0g"]

There was a serious scientific attempt to prove homeopathy could work, (and to win the ubiquitous Randi million), televised...It failed strangely enough.[/quote]

Homeopathy has been shown to be effective many, many times. Its just a question of how. Not necessarily placebo.

I have to say there are many things we don't yet understand about many things inc. homeopathy. Focus is not on proving it works but demonstrating it can be effective in certain groups of people for certain conditions .An example of such research

http://www.duets.nhs.uk/ViewRecord.asp?ID=581
 

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