Magnepan 1.7i with Goldenear Sub X subwoofer

[geek_boy_in]

Hello - I am evaluating options to couple a sub woofer with Magnepan 1.7i model. Currently the maggies are being driven by a Rega Elex-R integrated amp. Does anyone has experience of pairing Goldenear's Sub X subwoofer with Mags or other speakers? My concern is whether this pairing will match and blend well ? Maggies are too fast and detailed with an organic sound stage. Such response would be hard to compete against by any subwoofer. Last thing one would like to bring in a pristine Mag setup is any disjointed muddiness.

Other subwoofer options are also welcome from your experience compared to Magnepan's own DWM bass panels.

 

[DocG]

Hi,

I would definitely go for a sealed subwoofer. I ordered a Rythmik sub myself, to go with my Maggies (modified MMGs with active crossover), but it's still being built, so I can't comment on the result yet. I bought blind, but Rythmik's Direct Servo tech should make for a fast sub.

A DWM-panel would be an obvious alternative; those fill in the midbass though, don't go below 40 Hz (but you knew that). But you buy more flexibility to position your main speakers...

Where in the world are you, btw?

EDIT: do you need the sub for AV duties or for music also? If the latter, ever considered changing the amp for a high power, high current design first? Might give you far better bass than you have now too...

 

[geek_boy_in]

Hi,

I would definitely go for a sealed subwoofer. I ordered a Rythmik sub myself, to go with my Maggies (modified MMGs with active crossover), but it's still being built, so I can't comment on the result yet. I bought blind, but Rythmik's Direct Servo tech should make for a fast sub. 

A DWM-panel would be an obvious alternative; those fill in the midbass though, don't go below 40 Hz (but you knew that). But you buy more flexibility to position your main speakers...

Where in the world are you, btw?

EDIT: do you need the sub for AV duties or for music also? If the latter, ever considered changing the amp for a high power, high current design first? Might give you far better bass than you have now too...

DocG - I live in Ohio. There is a Mag/GoldenEar dealer nearby who is going to give me a demo soon. I am doing my research now on what others are thinking.

From my understanding The Elex-R is providing enough current to drive the Mags. From what I read I am assuming GoldenEar do not need so much current since I think this is a powered Sub with a Class D amp builtin. I am thinking of running the preamp-out from Rega to the Sub. Thoughts ?

As far as changing the amp goes, the Abrahamsen V2.0 UP is in wishlist. However it is not currently customized or distributed for US voltage/Market . Anybody using Abrahamsen in US? How?

 

[DocG]

DocG - I live in Ohio. There is a Mag/GoldenEar dealer nearby who is going to give me a demo soon. I am doing my research now on what others are thinking.

From my understanding The Elex-R is providing enough current to drive the Mags. From what I read I am assuming GoldenEar do not need so much current since I think this is a powered Sub with a Class D amp builtin. I am thinking of running the preamp-out from Rega to the Sub. Thoughts ?

As far as changing the amp goes, the Abrahamsen V2.0 UP is in wishlist. However it is not currently customized or distributed for US voltage/Market . Anybody using Abrahamsen in US? How?

SUBS:

You're correct: the sub won't need anything but a line-level signal. Since your amp has no subwoofer out (with crossover), you have to think how you will cross over to the sub (freq, slope for high pass and low pass; or send the full signal to the panels, and let the sub join at say 80 Hz). I suppose the GoldenEars have the necessary buttons and knobs for that, and a phase dial. But it will still be difficult to blend them together well. And that's why IMO you better look for the 'fastest' sub available. In general a sealed speaker is 'tighter' than a ported one (or one with bass radiators). And the Rythmik I mentioned goes further, in that it actively pushes and pulls the driver, limiting the overhang. Once more, I bought my kit blind and it's not assembled yet, so I just go by the theory behind it, and the good press these subs get. But since you're in the US (I'm Belgian btw; hence the quirky English*smile*), you can have a home demo, with 45 days return option.

If music is your main goal, do consider a DWM panel too; it'll blend very well with the 1.7i's (obviously).

AMPS:

Of course the Rega is powerful enough to drive your speakers. The question is: how much can be gained by using an even better (= more watts and more amps) amplifier. Good as the Abrahamsen might be, I'm rather thinking along the lines of a Hypex Ncore amp (like Colin's Nord amplifiers: 400 W/8 Ohm and 700 W/4 Ohm), or a Parasound Halo (like the A21; comparable power, but in class AB). Far better suited for Maggies, believe me! It might have more of an impact on the sound quality than the addition of a subwoofer (unless, of course, you want a LFE-channel for movies...).

Just an opinion, obviously. I appreciate that your dealer's demo room is a significant pro for the GoldenEars.

 

[geek_boy_in]

DogG - Yes. demoing the product is a big plus. In fact I probably would never have been so confident about the Mags had I not heard them in person at the dealer's showroom; despite the cult like following of the Mags. For example a Martin Logan equivalent of 1.7i was their hybrid Electromotion ESL models. I felt the bass was quite tight in the ESL however Mags are just Organic goodness and disappears from the soundscape.

The purpose of these speakers are mainly music. Not trying to convert them into a home theatre. I was thinking of increasing some low end to bring some thump and body for few of the more modern genres of music.

Is it true that when the DWM bass panel combined with 1.7i will perform better than the rated 40hz. How is that possible ?

 

[geek_boy_in]

I did check online Colin's Class D amp. I am more leaning towards an integrated amp option since there is a issue with space.
Thanks for pointing me to Parasound. The specs seems really good. I am especially liking the Halo Integrated 2.1 channel integrated amp option. Have you demoed it ever ? How do you compare it to Abrahamsen in terms of musicality and soundscape ? Volume is not really a big criteria for me. But clarity, detail and realism is. Too much analytical is also not good since it takes something away from the warm organic nature (atleast in my opinion at this point of my journey).

 

[DocG]

Is it true that when the DWM bass panel combined with 1.7i will perform better than the rated 40hz. How is that possible ?

No personal experience, but as I understand it, using a DWM for the mid-bass allows you to pull the 1.7s further into the room, with better soundstaging and a better deep bass. Doing so without the addition of the DWM would cause a 'hole' in the midbass, so that's covered by the extra panel. It's just dipole physics, or so I've been told... Make sure your dealer demoes this option for you! And be aware that there's not much below 40 Hz (low E on a bass guitar) in rock music. More important for classical (ambience) and electronic music.

 

[DocG]

I did check online Colin's Class D amp. I am more leaning towards an integrated amp option since there is a issue with space. Thanks for pointing me to Parasound. The specs seems really good. I am especially liking the Halo Integrated 2.1 channel integrated amp option. Have you demoed it ever ? How do you compare it to Abrahamsen in terms of musicality and soundscape ? Volume is not really a big criteria for me. But clarity, detail and realism is. Too much analytical is also not good since it takes something away from the warm organic nature (atleast in my opinion at this point of my journey).

I haven't heard a Parasound amp yet. It's a brand you don't come by often here in Belgium. And I haven't heard an Abrahamsen either... My judgment here is based on the specs, and on my experience of Maggies with average vs. high power amps.

Don't get me wrong: high power is not about ear splitting soundpressure. It's about acurate transient response, a major factor in realistic music reproduction IMO, especially for classical and other acoustic instruments.

Don't make it too complicated though: just judge for yourself, using your ears. *biggrin*

 

[geek_boy_in]

DocG - I had the demo. Room acoustics were not good and after 3/4th the time we realized that it sounded better when we reversed the polarity of the speakers. On top I did not have the bass tunes i am familiar with . Anyways, long story short, I was underwhelmed so asked the dealer for a home evaluation option after few weeks.

In the mean time I am going to try with a higher powered amp to see if there is any improvement. What is your status ? Update please on the bass improvement of the mags.

Can you test your current rig with these two bass heavy tracks below and let me know hows the reproduction.

1) Bestie Boys - Brass Monkey: Rega Elex-R + Mag setup performed abysymally bad compared to my reference headphone rig. No bass. Thin sounding and not involving at all.

2) James Blake - Limit to your love - Be patient the sub will kick in around 54sec mark. This is being rendered better than the above track. But I still feel it can be slightly more involving. Probably higher powered amp will fix it.

 

[DocG]

DocG - I had the demo. Room acoustics were not good and after 3/4th the time we realized that it sounded better when we reversed the polarity of the speakers. On top I did not have the bass tunes i am familiar with . Anyways, long story short, I was underwhelmed so asked the dealer for a home evaluation option after few weeks.

In the mean time I am going to try with a higher powered amp to see if there is any improvement. What is your status ? Update please on the bass improvement of the mags.

Can you test your current rig with these two bass heavy tracks below and let me know hows the reproduction.

1) Bestie Boys - Brass Monkey: Rega Elex-R + Mag setup performed abysymally bad compared to my reference headphone rig. No bass. Thin sounding and not involving at all.

2) James Blake - Limit to your love - Be patient the sub will kick in around 54sec mark. This is being rendered better than the above track. But I still feel it can be slightly more involving. Probably higher powered amp will fix it.

Sorry, I didn't get anywhere yet with my new system. The sub is being built into a bespoke pouf. But they're still working on it, so...

The panels were modified (new solid wood frames, external DSP cross-overs, ...). And there happens to be an issue with one speaker: a total lack of bass (think small transistor radio). I'll have to take it apart with my woodworker to see what has happened...

So at the moment I'm using a second hand pair of B&W CM7s, until all will finally be ready and working. Which has taken ages so far, and will take a couple of weeks (I hope not months) more. *dash1*

Yeah, that James Blake cover is an excellent bass torture track indeed. I'll certainly give it a go if and when my new rig will finally be up and running!

And keep us posted on the result of the combo with the beefier amp!

 

[Infiniteloop]

DocG - I had the demo. Room acoustics were not good and after 3/4th the time we realized that it sounded better when we reversed the polarity of the speakers. On top I did not have the bass tunes i am familiar with . Anyways, long story short, I was underwhelmed so asked the dealer for a home evaluation option after few weeks.

In the mean time I am going to try with a higher powered amp to see if there is any improvement. What is your status ? Update please on the bass improvement of the mags.

Can you test your current rig with these two bass heavy tracks below and let me know hows the reproduction.

1) Bestie Boys - Brass Monkey: Rega Elex-R + Mag setup performed abysymally bad compared to my reference headphone rig. No bass. Thin sounding and not involving at all.

2) James Blake - Limit to your love - Be patient the sub will kick in around 54sec mark. This is being rendered better than the above track. But I still feel it can be slightly more involving. Probably higher powered amp will fix it.

I think home evaluations are essential, particularly with Panel speakers. I had a pair of Martin Logans some years ago. In my main listening room they tended to 'beam' the sound in a really odd way so that there was a fairly narrow sweet spot and the sound seemed to be projected right into your face making for a very claustrophobic experience. They didn't stay with me long. There are other speakers which give you a similar level of transparency, air and space to panels IME. I often like to listen 'off axis' and that's why I like my Focals.

 

[DocG]

I think home evaluations are essential, particularly with Panel speakers. I had a pair of Martin Logans some years ago. In my main listening room they tended to 'beam' the sound in a really odd way so that there was a fairly narrow sweet spot and the sound seemed to be projected right into your face making for a very claustrophobic experience. They didn't stay with me long. There are other speakers which give you a similar level of transparency, air and space to panels IME. I often like to listen 'off axis' and that's why I like my Focals.

Yes, but the OP has his Maggies already, and seems pleased with them...

Your point is also very valid when it comes to subwoofers though. Home demo is a must if he takes the sub route. Less of an issue when changing amps IME.

 

[geek_boy_in]

I had a pair of Martin Logans some years ago. In my main listening room they tended to 'beam' the sound in a really odd way so that there was a fairly narrow sweet spot and the sound seemed to be projected right into your face making for a very claustrophobic experience. They didn't stay with me long. There are other speakers which give you a similar level of transparency, air and space to panels IME. I often like to listen 'off axis' and that's why I like my Focals.

Yes, but the OP has his Maggies already, and seems pleased with them...

Your point is also very valid when it comes to subwoofers though. Home demo is a must if he takes the sub route. Less of an issue when changing amps IME.

@Infiniteloop : I understand what you are saying. But that might be also one reason why many folks like Planar speakers. The presence and soundstage is so vivid that it feels the band is right in front of you with the singer few feet away and you can hear every sibilance (depends a lot on the manner in which the source is recorded and the amp. Read my experience below). Which in some cases I fear might create an unsettling feeling if you are intending to use the speakers as just background listening. Try to listen to a good recording of Jack Johnson's "All at Once" and Fairfield Fours "These Bones" and one will know what I mean. Very difficult to focus on other work if these kind of tracks are playing.

@DocG - So I swapped the Rega with 700w @4ohm per channel Nord One. More definition. No distortion and The warmth is retained irrespective the high volume levels. Still cooking but there is definitely a sonic improvement after 70/80hours (or maybe just placebo) which manifested in terms of more definition and tightness and overall cohesiveness through the frequency spectrum. I feel we have a winner here

I have not fitted the two amps back and forth to compare but it might be that the Nord One is a bit laid back and warm then the Elex-R. Maybe the Op amp ? Basia and her drummer in her track "Promises" did not come right on your face when the band joined in. She was properly centered though. (Btw I feel this track is an excellent test of the stage depth for an amp. Follow the first minute and you will feel how; from being further away the singer she comes right in front depending on which mic is being emphasized by the engineer). But then again I heard that some companies use tricky measures to boost the mid and high to give that "on your face" feeling. Which can result in the output being fatiguing. (I am not saying whether Rega does that or not. As I said I do not have the energy to wire/re-wire back & forth to do an honest real time comparison. These are all impulsive memories depending on the mood and environment and speaker positions that day. Also make no mistake I like the musicality and tightness of the Rega too. Felt that they are excellent amps at the power rating that they say. Maybe I will get a used Vandersteen and fit it with Rega what say ?? j/k)

Nord One is definitely bringing out the best of the Mags. I also managed to obtain a used Velodyne 10inch digital drive sub. Have set it up at 50hz crossover with 30db/octave attenuation. Getting decent results so far. The important realization is that one might not need the sub for all tracks . For example in the James Blake track which I mentioned above, the addition of the sub did not make it more pleasant for me. Infact it made it unsettling, atleast to me. On the other hand the Beastie Boys/Brass Monkey came alive with the hum of the sub keeping the music tight and cohesive. The 10DD comes with a remote (with a mute button ), a video output to see the frequency response and parameters, a tone generator and a microphone. So it gives a lot of possibilities from entirely muting it in tracks to adjusting it sitting right from your chair.

 

[DocG]

@DocG - So I swapped the Rega with 700w @4ohm per channel Nord One. More definition. No distortion and The warmth is retained irrespective the high volume levels. Still cooking but there is definitely a sonic improvement after 70/80hours (or maybe just placebo) which manifested in terms of more definition and tightness and overall cohesiveness through the frequency spectrum. I feel we have a winner here

I have not fitted the two amps back and forth to compare but it might be that the Nord One is a bit laid back and warm then the Elex-R. Maybe the Op amp ? Basia and her drummer in her track "Promises" did not come right on your face when the band joined in. She was properly centered though. (Btw I feel this track is an excellent test of the stage depth for an amp. Follow the first minute and you will feel how; from being further away the singer she comes right in front depending on which mic is being emphasized by the engineer). But then again I heard that some companies use tricky measures to boost the mid and high to give that "on your face" feeling. Which can result in the output being fatiguing. (I am not saying whether Rega does that or not. As I said I do not have the energy to wire/re-wire back & forth to do an honest real time comparison. These are all impulsive memories depending on the mood and environment and speaker positions that day. Also make no mistake I like the musicality and tightness of the Rega too. Felt that they are excellent amps at the power rating that they say. Maybe I will get a used Vandersteen and fit it with Rega what say ?? j/k)

Nord One is definitely bringing out the best of the Mags. I also managed to obtain a used Velodyne 10inch digital drive sub. Have set it up at 50hz crossover with 30db/octave attenuation. Getting decent results so far. The important realization is that one might not need the sub for all tracks . For example in the James Blake track which I mentioned above, the addition of the sub did not make it more pleasant for me. Infact it made it unsettling, atleast to me. On the other hand the Beastie Boys/Brass Monkey came alive with the hum of the sub keeping the music tight and cohesive. The 10DD comes with a remote (with a mute button ), a video output to see the frequency response and parameters, a tone generator and a microphone. So it gives a lot of possibilities from entirely muting it in tracks to adjusting it sitting right from your chair.

Nice! You don't beat about the bush, do you?

When toying with the 10DD, see what a higher XO brings to the party: 60, 80, 100 Hz. It could muddy the sound completely... Or maybe it frees the Maggies from the heavy lifting, so they can shine, doing the higher bass and mids. Give it a try!

I'm listening to my modded MMGs with NC-400 amps at the moment. Sounds so sweet already. I can't wait for the sub to be ready -- I think I'll start stalking my woodworker until he finishes the job!

I'm surprised the sub spoils Limit to your Love. My MMGs can't cope with the subbass at all. Then again, 1.7s have substantially bigger midbass panels. And, as has been said before, it's very tricky to blend in a sub by ear. So you might loose more than you gain...

I'm gonna have a look for that 'Promises' track. Is it on Spotify? (Never heard of Basia - about to change that! )

 

[geek_boy_in]

@DocG - So I swapped the Rega with 700w @4ohm per channel Nord One. More definition. No distortion and The warmth is retained irrespective the high volume levels. Still cooking but there is definitely a sonic improvement after 70/80hours (or maybe just placebo) which manifested in terms of more definition and tightness and overall cohesiveness through the frequency spectrum. I feel we have a winner here

I have not fitted the two amps back and forth to compare but it might be that the Nord One is a bit laid back and warm then the Elex-R. Maybe the Op amp ? Basia and her drummer in her track "Promises" did not come right on your face when the band joined in. She was properly centered though. (Btw I feel this track is an excellent test of the stage depth for an amp. Follow the first minute and you will feel how; from being further away the singer she comes right in front depending on which mic is being emphasized by the engineer). But then again I heard that some companies use tricky measures to boost the mid and high to give that "on your face" feeling. Which can result in the output being fatiguing. (I am not saying whether Rega does that or not. As I said I do not have the energy to wire/re-wire back & forth to do an honest real time comparison. These are all impulsive memories depending on the mood and environment and speaker positions that day. Also make no mistake I like the musicality and tightness of the Rega too. Felt that they are excellent amps at the power rating that they say. Maybe I will get a used Vandersteen and fit it with Rega what say ?? j/k)

Nord One is definitely bringing out the best of the Mags. I also managed to obtain a used Velodyne 10inch digital drive sub. Have set it up at 50hz crossover with 30db/octave attenuation. Getting decent results so far. The important realization is that one might not need the sub for all tracks . For example in the James Blake track which I mentioned above, the addition of the sub did not make it more pleasant for me. Infact it made it unsettling, atleast to me. On the other hand the Beastie Boys/Brass Monkey came alive with the hum of the sub keeping the music tight and cohesive. The 10DD comes with a remote (with a mute button ), a video output to see the frequency response and parameters, a tone generator and a microphone. So it gives a lot of possibilities from entirely muting it in tracks to adjusting it sitting right from your chair.

Nice! You don't beat about the bush, do you?

When toying with the 10DD, see what a higher XO brings to the party: 60, 80, 100 Hz. It could muddy the sound completely... Or maybe it frees the Maggies from the heavy lifting, so they can shine, doing the higher bass and mids. Give it a try!

I'm listening to my modded MMGs with NC-400 amps at the moment. Sounds so sweet already. I can't wait for the sub to be ready -- I think I'll start stalking my woodworker until he finishes the job!

I'm surprised the sub spoils Limit to your Love. My MMGs can't cope with the subbass at all. Then again, 1.7s have substantially bigger midbass panels. And, as has been said before, it's very tricky to blend in a sub by ear. So you might loose more than you gain...

I'm gonna have a look for that 'Promises' track. Is it on Spotify? (Never heard of Basia - about to change that! )

I think you will like Basia. Don't read up anything on her just listen first and form your own judgment. You will be happily surprised after that about her background. I listen to her on Tidal so I think she will be on Spotify or Deezer as well.

Listen to the other two tracks I meantioned as well. Also the Nord+Mag+Velodyne combo is making the entire album of Rage Against the Machine (20th anniversary special edition of their debut album) sublime. Also try Jacques Loussier playing Bach-Jazz. His prelude and Fugue No. 1 in C major has got some nice bass. You can hear the plucking in a quiet room if your setup is good.

I listened to the Limit to your love track again with my recent woofer settings. It did not sound so bad as first time at all. It was more definitive. I think the amp is still evolving or I got the equalization correct. One thing is that the track already has a lot of bass which the Maggies can reproduce easily and resolutely. Towards one section of the track in the middle the bass is going so underwater low that my room's window panels are vibrating ...... the overall experience is becoming an anxious feeling and not relaxing ...... you see what I mean ? at the end of the day hifi or medium-fi, you want a musical refined experience, not as if an earthquake is happening... touch wood.

** the way to analyze the Promises track is that the vocal starts behind far away, then the instruments will pan in from outside to inside and finally around 1min mark the bass drum and vocal will converge right at the center in front of your face. If I remember correctly the Rega did it really well. Also since the presentation is so forward you well hear the sibilance ... the hiss when she pronounces Ssame..keepss , promisess, closser etc.

 

[DocG]

** the way to analyze the Promises track is that the vocal starts behind far away, then the instruments will pan in from outside to inside and finally around 1min mark the bass drum and vocal will converge right at the center in front of your face. If I remember correctly the Rega did it really well. Also since the presentation is so forward you well hear the sibilance ... the hiss when she pronounces Ssame..keepss , promisess, closser etc.

In my room, she's just off centre, a little to the right. But my room is not symmetric. Maybe if I reposition my left speaker... But a good test track indeed.

If you need more inspiration, there is this playlist on Spotify. The first track, Bubbles by Yosi Horikawa, has a really spooky soundstage. I hope it's available on Tidal too.

 

[Gazzip]

Try Trentemøller's The Last Resort if you want a weird, spooky soundstage effect...

 

[geek_boy_in]

In my room, she's just off centre, a little to the right. But my room is not symmetric. Maybe if I reposition my left speaker... But a good test track indeed.

If you need more inspiration, there is this playlist on Spotify. The first track, Bubbles by Yosi Horikawa, has a really spooky soundstage. I hope it's available on Tidal too.

There is a Diana Krall track called "devil may care" from "live in paris" album. The soundstage seems to be test worthy.

Doc - Can you check hows the drum coming in your rig. Even though its a grammy winning album.. why do I feel that the hihat is wrongly placed (recorded). Jeff Hamilton the drummer is a right hand drummer so his hihat should be on the listeners (my) right. However its appearing left of the cymbal and snare.... basically like that of a typical left hand drummer's setup. The vacalist with her piano is on right and the guitarist is left of the listener (me). The drummer is sitting slightly offcenter towards the left i think......

(Am thinking the hihat is wrongly placed assuming he is sitting slightly offaxis facing me. Unless another possibility is that the drummer is sitting on my left facing the pianist. so hihat is the farthest and laid back (with the floor tom towards me) and the ride cymbal and snare is relatively closer to me hence the front mic is catching it and bringing it forward and more centered )

by the way that bubbles track from Yosi is superb indeed with the marbles. Am currently obsessing over the Nord's soundstage depth (now that the bass quest has halted (for the time being) satisfactorily). I am trying to get a few ferrite cores for the power line and speaker cables to see if it improves.

 

[DocG]

I'm in Amsterdam with the wife and kids for a couple of days. I'll look into it as I get back.

As for the speaker cable: those Ncore amps have a very low output impedance. So get the resistance as low as possible: keep the wires as thick and as short as you can get away with. I use 2 x 2 m with a 4 mm2 core for each driver (8 mm2 per speaker).

 

[geek_boy_in]

Great ! Enjoy your time in Amsterdam !! The cable pair currently being used are 10 gauge wires. So pretty thick. They are long though around 17ft since the room is big and shaped in a specific way so the audio rack is being kept at the side instead of at the center of two speakers. Once you get back and while you are testing let me know how your system is resolving the track "Accident" from the Soundtracks of movie "Whiplash". The entire album was suggested somewhere online to test out the dynamics. Its a drum solo and pretty intense in few spots say around 30 sec mark, 2:52min mark etc. Not sure if the recording is poor or my system is muddling it. I am leaning towards the opinion that the recording engineer did not resolve all the bass drum hits and neither did he clearly seperate out the baritones from the drums because the Nord-Mags resolved correctly the bass hits between 3:41-3:42mins and right after that it gets muddled again.... I would have probably liked the music to be much more seperated and the bass and the synth crescendo to not be in the same plane. But then again need another opinion to check if the rig is not corrupting it. Towards the defence of the engineer. Recording bass drums can be painful because of the balance between the attack and resonance of the shell that you need to capture between two or more mics. At rapid hits it becomes mutually exclusive isn't it because before the previous resonance dies the next attack comes. Thats why in speed metal and such they just focus on the bass drum beater instead of the shell properties.