Lost Cause?

[admin_exported]

Hi,

My listening room is the following shape:
________
¦ ¦
¦ x x ¦
¦ ¦__
¦ A ¦
¦ ¦
¦ ¦
¦ ¦
¦ ¦
¦_s_s_s_s_¦

Floorstanding speakers are denoted by "X", my sofa by "s". The length is about 18 Feet, the void where the speakers live is about 7 feet. The remaining width is about 9 feet.

Problem: It sounds dead, uninvolving, harsh and not warm in any way, plus it doesn't go as loud as I'd like. If I plonk myself at point "A" the sound gets a whole lot better as you'd expect, but I still can't get any decent volume out of it. (CA 540A Mk2, biamped with CA P500 for LF).

Yes, I need a dedicated CD player (not the DVD as it is currently), no, the speakers are probably not helping (Gale 4040) ...

But - Is the room the main problem here? If so, would throwing a much more powerful amp at the problem improve things significantly?

 

[fatboyslimfast]

Hi JB,

Can you bring the speakers forward to the edge of the void as an experiment? Also, has it always been this way or has something changed (new amp / DVD / house move) that has caused the problem?

If nothing has changed, and the above hasn't helped, then I would maybe look to new speakers... Your room isn't huge, and even a pair of low-mid end standmounters shouldn't have too much problem getting to the volume levels you want...

Just a thought, have you tried single-amping the speakers, with maybe just the power amp? Some speakers like biamping, some don't...

 

[huddo]

Its not something as simple as out of phase speakers is it ?? No offence but its easily done

 

[fatboyslimfast]

Good call Huddo - worth checking...

 

[Anonymous]

[quote user="huddo"]Its not something as simple as out of phase speakers is it ?? No offence but its easily done[/quote]

Worth a shot.

But I'd love to know what are the speakers. Not all speakers can produce loud bass 18 feet down. I would also try this:

________

Ý Ý
Ý Ý__
Ý X X Ý
Ý Ý
Ý Ý
Ý Ý
Ý Ý
Ý_s_s_s_s_Ý

 

[Anonymous]

I'll try moving the speaks out into the main width as you suggest (need to get some more cable for this tho)...however as a long term solution, that isn't gonna fly with mrs/baby setup!

I've only had this hifi setup since moving into this house - it's always been dissapointing. Prior to the move, I was in the 1991 Aiwa "midi" camp so I have no comparable memories.

I've tried 540 alone, 540 pre/P500 power and current Bi-amp setup... the current setup sounds the best to me.

Good point about the speaker phasing... I've fallen into this trap before and have checked and double checked.

It does go loud, just not as loud as I'd like. You know when you've been listening at a good volume and after a while your ears become acustomed to the volume, so you turn it up a bit... I often like to turn it up a lot(!) but when I do, it runs out of puff..... puffing loudly definately, but not enough.

 

[Anonymous]

[quote user="ranjeetrain"][quote user="huddo"]Its not something as simple as out of phase speakers is it ?? No offence but its easily done[/quote] Worth a shot.

But I'd love to know what are the speakers. Not all speakers can produce loud bass 18 feet down. I would also try this:

________

Ý Ý
Ý Ý__
Ý X X Ý
Ý Ý
Ý Ý
Ý Ý
Ý Ý
Ý_s_s_s_s_Ý

[/quote]

I guess i could also try firing the speakers accross the room rather than down?...if only to provide some answers.

As I mentioned, when I sit in the geometrical sweet spot ("A" on my original diagram) it sounds loads better, but I think the massive space behind me is eating the volume... there is nothing for the sound to bounce back off.

 

[fatboyslimfast]

Only thing I can suggest is see if you can get a friendly dealer to allow you to home dem a pair of MA BR2s or similar (if standmounters are an option with little 'uns) as - and I don't mean to be insulting here, just speaking(!) from experience - it's quite difficult to get a decent pair of floorstanders for much less than £200...

 

[Anonymous]

[quote user="jbadman"]
I'll try moving the speaks out into the main width as you suggest (need to get some more cable for this tho)...however as a long term solution, that isn't gonna fly with mrs/baby setup!

I've only had this hifi setup since moving into this house - it's always been dissapointing. Prior to the move, I was in the 1991 Aiwa "midi" camp so I have no comparable memories.

I've tried 540 alone, 540 pre/P500 power and current Bi-amp setup... the current setup sounds the best to me.

Good point about the speaker phasing... I've fallen into this trap before and have checked and double checked.

It does go loud, just not as loud as I'd like. You know when you've been listening at a good volume and after a while your ears become acustomed to the volume, so you turn it up a bit... I often like to turn it up a lot(!) but when I do, it runs out of puff..... puffing loudly definately, but not enough.

[/quote]

The truth is, not many speakers actually *demand* bi-amping. In fact, most speakers are optimized for single-wiring usage. Bi-amping will most certainly help separation, but won't necessarily double the power into the speakers. I am glad to learn you are happy bi-amping them, but I won't expect that to help power handling by a huge margin, unless the speakers demand it. So, what are the speakers, again?

 

[Anonymous]

Hi ranjeetrain,

Sure - the biamping seems to help playing at higher volumes... it's not a massive improvement.. but it's there.

The speakers are Gale 4040 floor standers - reasonable spec, but I've never heard of anyone else with them or any modern Gales for that matter.

There is no review for these exact speakers in WHF, but the review of their little brother stand mounts (the 4020) is along the lines of "nowhere near good enough, disinterested sound".... which doesn' bode well for the 4040s which have identical components! Unfortunately I don't know anyone else who has any other decent speakers which I could try out to compare.

I'm a little bitter about my introduction to the world of seperates as it goes. I'd not done my research properly but was despirate to get going, so went into Richer with an open mind - decent micro or budget seperates (i.e. Marantz or CA). Unluckily for me, the sales guy was a complete chopper who was more interested in the football than me. He pursuaded me that a heavily reduced NAD AV amp with built in DVD player would better any micro and be on par with budget seperates. £700 to £180? I fell for it.. chose some floor standers (the Gales) which he assured me would be "a good match" and off I went.

In the end the NAD was faulty and rubbish, I exchanged for the CA 540A and a DVD player but kept the Gales. I wish I had discovered this forum during this period as I have learned so much and probably wouldn't have chosen any of the seperates I currently have. Unfortunately due to work commitments and having a baby, the above disaster happened over several months so it was too late to rectify with Richer.

Lessons learned: Research, take your time, audition, if the salesman doesn't inspire confidance then walk away, don't have your wife an new born waiting for you when making decisions in a hifi shop!

Sorry for the rant, but as you can tell....I'm rather put-out!

 

[Anonymous]

[quote user="jbadman"]

Lessons learned: Research, take your time, audition, if the salesman doesn't inspire confidance then walk away, don't have your wife an new born waiting for you when making decisions in a hifi shop!
[/quote]
Couldn't agree more. Have myself been there.

[quote user="jbadman"]
Sorry for the rant, but as you can tell....I'm rather put-out!
[/quote]

No worries, there is always a next time.

 

[fatboyslimfast]

My sympathies - have been there too.

Whereabouts in the country are you JB?

 

[a91gti]

Any possibility that you could swap ends?

 

[Anonymous]

fatboyslimfast - In the New Forest.

 

[Anonymous]

[quote user="taxiboy"]Any possibility that you could swap ends?[/quote]

We thought about it, but the door to the room opens inwards just infront of where the speakers are now.. meaning that unless the door was always close, you'd be staring at it!

 

[fatboyslimfast]

[quote user="jbadman"]
fatboyslimfast - In the New Forest.
[/quote]

There is a sevenoaks in Southampton - I've recently had good service from their bristol branch - you might be able to take your kit along to them (cd/amp/speakers) and see how they sound in comparison to some of their speakers there.

If you hear no difference, then it's the room...if, however, a pair of £150-200 speakers makes a huge difference...

(well, or

if you have to save up...)!

 

[Anonymous]

[quote user="fatboyslimfast"][quote user="jbadman"]

fatboyslimfast - In the New Forest.
[/quote]

There is a sevenoaks in Southampton - I've recently had good service from their bristol branch - you might be able to take your kit along to them (cd/amp/speakers) and see how they sound in comparison to some of their speakers there.
If you hear no difference, then it's the room...if, however, a pair of £150-200 speakers makes a huge difference...

(well, or

if you have to save up...)![/quote]

Thanks for the advice... I think something like that should be my next steps (after the house extension.....:-( )

From reading opinions in this forum, I can't help thinking that I'm never going to achieve the warm, rich, punchy sound I'm after, along with the ability to play at high volume with a low-end CA amplifier... which people seem to express as sounding bright and harsh. Perhaps I should look to Rotel, NAD or a 2nd hand Roksan.... AS WELL as new speakers.

Now I come to mention it, I don't yet have a dedicated CD player.. so what I'm basically saying is I need to scrap the entire thing and start again! ***.

 

[a91gti]

Dude! Before you go ape and start remodelling the house and system maybe you should try a cd player. I have a 540R hooked up to a NAD c541i and it sounds great and thats with budget floorstanders!

 

[Anonymous]

[quote user="taxiboy"]Dude! Before you go ape and start remodelling the house and system maybe you should try a cd player. I have a 540R hooked up to a NAD c541i and it sounds great and thats with budget floorstanders![/quote]

You're right - a £50 Sony DVD player which is about 2 inches tall and weighs sod all doesn't scream "I'm full of quality components which will make your music sound great".

Here's a question - should a decent Japanese 90s CD player (my mate has a Technics I'm thinking of) be significatly better than the £50 DVD player?

The reason I ask is that I want to determine which is having the most detrimental affect on the sound, speakers or player. If it's speakers, I'll replace those first... if a dedicated player makes enough difference that that would be a cheaper first upgrade...... so if my mates Technics ought to be significantly better then I'll give it a try!

 

[a91gti]

There may be some arguments about this but i reckon even a Technics cd player should sound better than a bog dvd will.

 

[Anonymous]

In case anyone's interested, I just heavily angled-in the speakers towards point A. The were mildly angled-in before and i've experimented with distance between the speakers and various angles before, but not to this extent,

The result is massively improved sound all over the room. it seems these speakers need to be firing into open space from all sides.

 

[fatboyslimfast]

Good man! You've just saved yourself £200 and earache from the missus!!!

 

[Anonymous]

It seems so....hurrah! The room is less than ideal, however this is a vast improvement.

 

[Anonymous]

[quote user="jbadman"]
It seems so....hurrah! The room is less than ideal, however this is a vast improvement.
[/quote]

When it comes to Hi-fi, whatever does the trick for you. Good tweak mate.

 

[fatboyslimfast]

It could have been that the sound waves were bouncing off the back wall, cancelling out some of the sound, and angling them has removed this. Either way, sorted!