JITTER WITHIN DIGITAL CABLES

aliEnRIK

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As ive seen with my own eyes differences in hdmi cables I thought id go hunting for any evidence as to how this could be

I came across a very well know forum yesterday that were attacking whathifi. It got my back up quite a bit but the thread was locked so I couldnt even reply (Though im thinking of posting quite a few things to upset the 'cable voodoo posse' over there)

Anyways ~

I went back to an American websight I visit every now and then. I wont post links as I have a feeling ill probably get my hand slapped (Although its not a forum so can I ?)

The author of the article is a very well respected audiophile and goes to great lengths to find 'why' things work how they do

His test has shown that jitter is influenced by all the following ~

1) the transport's jitter;
2) S/PDIF or AES/EBU interface-induced jitter (the digital interconnect);
3) how well the digital processor's input receiver rejects transport and interface jitter;
4) the input receiver's intrinsic jitter; and
5) how well the clock is recovered and handled inside the digital processor.

"My
preconception was that any measurable differences between different
coaxial digital interconnects would be marginal at best."

"What caused this reduction in measured jitter?"

"Changing the direction of the digital interconnect between the transport and the jitter analyzer."

"This
phenomenon was easily repeatable: put the cable in one direction and
read the RMS jitter voltage, then reverse the cable direction and watch
the RMS jitter voltage drop. Although I'd heard differences in
digital-cable directionality, I was surprised the difference in jitter
was so easily measurable—and that the jitter difference was nearly double."

"To
confirm this phenomenon, I repeated the test five times each on three
different digital interconnects. One was a generic audio cable, the
other two were Mod Squad Wonder Link and Aural Symphonics Digital
Standard, both highly regarded cables specifically designed for digital
transmission. The generic cable wasn't directional: it produced the same high jitter in either direction. But both the Wonder Link and the Aural Symphonics had lower jitter levels overall, but different jitter levels depending on their direction. Moreover, the generic cable had higher jitter than either of the two premium cables—even in the latters' "high-jitter" direction."
"Moreover, we can see that transport jitter goes right through the
digital processor's input receiver
(even the Crystal CS8412) and
affects the amount of jitter at the DAC's word clock—the point where
jitter makes an audible difference. If the word-clock timing is
different, the sound will be different."
So to sum up this experiment ~

Cables DO induce jitter 'measureably'

Cables 'can' be directional

Digital cables are NOT the same

The receiving digital processor does NOT remove the jitter (Meaning jitter WILL effect both sight and sound)
 
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Anonymous

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Manufacturing issues aside, digital cables are the same!

You must know this, Rick, since you work in the business. Also, have a look at Wikipedia and other sources for definitions of jitter. There's plenty of info out there.
 
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Anonymous

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That is very interesting Rick, whilst I believe quality HDMI cables have better screening plus improved signal strength over longer runs I didn't know that they behaved in a directional manner.

Jitter has noticable effects on things, that's why I personally prefer the AV amp to do processing rather than the Blue ray player.(Bitstream)

Great post
 

idc

Well-known member
Great post Rick. I am sure you can name the source so that others can google it, so as to prepare a well argued and informed repost. Tarqunih, back to bed with you, you are up way too early/late!
 
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Anonymous

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aliEnRIK:
I came across a very well know forum yesterday that were attacking whathifi. It got my back up quite a bit but the thread was locked so I couldnt even reply (Though im thinking of posting quite a few things to upset the 'cable voodoo posse' over there)

Not strictly responding to the point of your original post but the quote above reflects my findings. After a very brief diversion to another forum I hastily beat a retreat. Too many personal insults and attacks for me to take anything seriously.
 

aliEnRIK

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Heres the article (grab it quick
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)
CD TRANSPORT JITTER
 

aliEnRIK

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raym87:aliEnRIK:
I came across a very well know forum yesterday that were attacking whathifi. It got my back up quite a bit but the thread was locked so I couldnt even reply (Though im thinking of posting quite a few things to upset the 'cable voodoo posse' over there)

Not strictly responding to the point of your original post but the quote above reflects my findings. After a very brief diversion to another forum I hastily beat a retreat. Too many personal insults and attacks for me to take anything seriously.

Ive been there a few times. The trick is not to take any insults personally. On one of them im slowly grinding them down and every so often they 'slip up' and get another confession out of them which REALLY irritates them ~ haha
 

aliEnRIK

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Tarquinh:
Manufacturing issues aside, digital cables are the same!

You must know this, Rick, since you work in the business. Also, have a look at Wikipedia and other sources for definitions of jitter. There's plenty of info out there.

Im actually ASTOUNDED that youve mentioned 'wikipedia' as a source!!
 
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Anonymous

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aliEnRIK:raym87:aliEnRIK:
I came across a very well know forum yesterday that were attacking whathifi. It got my back up quite a bit but the thread was locked so I couldnt even reply (Though im thinking of posting quite a few things to upset the 'cable voodoo posse' over there)

Not strictly responding to the point of your original post but the quote above reflects my findings. After a very brief diversion to another forum I hastily beat a retreat. Too many personal insults and attacks for me to take anything seriously.

Ive been there a few times. The trick is not to take any insults personally. On one of them im slowly grinding them down and every so often they 'slip up' and get another confession out of them which REALLY irritates them ~ haha

Lifes too short........
 

aliEnRIK

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Heres some other links and quotes ~

http://www.networkboy.net/hdjitter.shtml

"lets look at a form of jitter that rarely plagues the
I/O's of PCB mounted components, but that your cheapie cable is almost certain
to introduce: aJit. Amplitude jitter "


http://www.positive-feedback.com/Issue43/jitter.htm

"the optical interface adds more jitter than a simple logic
buffer. For that reason, it has higher jitter/lower performance than a
well-designed S/PDIF coax interface."

The BBC have known about and tried to work around 'jitter' for a long time.

http://downloads.bbc.co.uk/rd/pubs/reports/1974-11.pdf

http://www.jitter.de/english/engc_navfr.html
"Less jitter" sounds better, much better!

  • Auditioners testified:
    • improved ease of listening
    • increased clarity
    • improved high frequency response
    • better instrument separation
    • more information
    • better timing
    • better soundstage
    • improved overall audio performance
 

aliEnRIK

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raym87:aliEnRIK:raym87:aliEnRIK:
I came across a very well know forum yesterday that were attacking whathifi. It got my back up quite a bit but the thread was locked so I couldnt even reply (Though im thinking of posting quite a few things to upset the 'cable voodoo posse' over there)

Not strictly responding to the point of your original post but the quote above reflects my findings. After a very brief diversion to another forum I hastily beat a retreat. Too many personal insults and attacks for me to take anything seriously.

Ive been there a few times. The trick is not to take any insults personally. On one of them im slowly grinding them down and every so often they 'slip up' and get another confession out of them which REALLY irritates them ~ haha

Lifes too short........

Very good at keeping me awake on nightshifts though
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idc

Well-known member
I have had a read through the BBC paper and the part that stood out to me is in the conclusion part 6, paragraph 2 'for which impairment on critical programme should be perceptible to less than 5% of listeners'. That suggests the 'golden ear' theory of why some hear a difference and others do not.

Rick, you have golden ears, I appear not to (I think neither does Tarquinh, but don't tell him
emotion-5.gif
) There will also be degrees of golden ear, where for some differences are clear, others less so and so on. I am happy to be in the doesn't have camp as I can now confidently buy cheap.but well made cables, save money and not worry that an upgrade might be worth it.
 
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Anonymous

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aliEnRIK:
So to sum up this experiment ~

Cables DO induce jitter 'measureably'

NO THEY DON'T . All digital signals are square shaped pulse trains. The only thing cables can do is smear the wave shape slightly, round the corners.

The equipment being fed with the signal will have a limiter circuit that slices and removes the top and bottom of the signal; removing anything the cable may have altered!
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