Its The Implementation That Counts...

[Alec]

...Or is it?

Thats what people often say about DACs, shortly after pointing out that they are all quite similar and cheap.

So, is it true and, in terms i can understand (well, all you can do is your best, as me mam says), what the heck does it mean?

 

[idc]

Similar and cheap?! I give you the GTE Trinity DAC which costs just short of £40,000. I getting one to go between my Dell Inspiron 1300 and my headphone amp.

 

[chebby]

Makes the dCS Scarlatti seem cheap.

 

[Alec]

Yes, but as you two learned chaps will know, im refering to the little DAC components themselves without their cases and other bits n pieces.

 

[idc]

Funnily enough I have been compiling a little list of what goes into what DAC. For example the Musical Fidelity X-CANV8P, the X-DACV8 and the V-DAC all use a Burr-Brown PCM 2706 for the USB. They differ wildly in price, though they also do different things as well as having a USB port. The Fubar USB DACs and the Pro-ject USB DAC also use similarly numbered Burr-Brown PCM 27## components.

 

[Alec]

If you, or anyone, knows the difference between the ADM 9.1s and the Beresford, DAC wise, id love to know. Only done a little bit of reasearch so far with no luck.

Also, i need to explain myself again - when i said cheap, i meant the individual components, and cheap to manufacturers. Im sure ive heard that the most pricey are about a tenner. I'm struggling to make the point tho, without causing controversy and mentioning things/people that it would be against the rules to mention. I repeat, im not refering to "DACS" as they go to retail, im refering to those tiny things that constitute the actual DAC, the active ingredient, as it were, and not the box and its total contents.

Forgive me if i have over-explained.

 

[idc]

The Beresfords are one of the DACs I have tried to find out what is inside, but no joy so far. As for the ADM9.1 no idea. I suspect though al, if you, we, knew the actual cost of the 'active ingredients' in DACs, CDPs etc, especially the higher end ones, we would not be so happy at paying some of the prices.

 

[Messiah]

al7478:
If you, or anyone, knows the difference between the ADM 9.1s and the Beresford, DAC wise, id love to know. Only done a little bit of reasearch so far with no luck.

Email Ash. I'm sure he will give you an answer.

 

[idc]

And of course PJPro has been inside a Beresford.... http://community.whathifi.com/forums/t/241888.aspx

 

[basshead]

al7478:
...Or is it?

Thats what people often say about DACs, shortly after pointing out that they are all quite similar and cheap.

So, is it true and, in terms i can understand (well, all you can do is your best, as me mam says), what the heck does it mean?

i wouldnt be suprised if mr stanley beresford had the same thought... which led to - i wonder if i could make one on the cheap?... and the rest was beresford history.

DACs are a niche market so will always be pricy for what the are, and the top-of-the-range ones are a luxury version of an already niche market, which is why they hold their high prices.. because they can.

 

[Alec]

Messiah:al7478:

If you, or anyone, knows the difference between the ADM 9.1s and the Beresford, DAC wise, id love to know. Only done a little bit of reasearch so far with no luck.

Email Ash. I'm sure he will give you an answer.

Sorry, forgot to mentio that ive emailed one of their dealers that ive been to and if i have no joy ill email AVI direct.

 

[Alec]

http://community.whathifi.com/forums/t/241888.aspx

Cheers idc.

Tho im afraid its gone over my head a bit.

 

[idc]

Your welcome al. It is totally over my head too. I read through it and did not see a mention of the actual DAC itself. However, my understanding from another DIY upgrade on the V-DAC I read elsewhere, the actual DAC is not the upgrade, it is all the gubbins around it. PJPro, what are your thoughts on this?

I got interested in this because of reading other reviews which have commented on why Musical Fidelity have been so vague and secretive about the DAC in the X-CANV8P. So far I am sure that it is the same USB DAC as is in the V-DAC and V8 DAC. So if that is the case then no need to upgrade as my PC to DAC connection is best served by a USB cable. I can say that ipod via GQ-24 to the phono line in makes a better sound than Spotify to amp via USB and the DAC. The real test will come when I finally get itunes and lossless to amp up and running. But I was sent the wrong network hard drive and the company are being a pain about exchanging it for the right one.

 

[Anonymous]

My old Musical Fidelity KW DAC(£2000) used to make mp3s at 128kbps - 320kbps sound like an original compared to other CD players under £1000. The better quality components in the DAC the better benifit you recieve for your ears.

My Dac Magic is nothing in comparision but for the price point - is excellent value.

 

[chebby]

AVI have often claimed that they use state of the art DACs and that their active speakers outperform systems costing 5 or 10 times as much.

You should telephone or email AVI to set your mind at rest. They will be able to tell you how much better their DAC is and why.

It is not a subject that can be fairly debated here except by a qualified electronics designer (or the respective manufacturers) but forum searches will yield much explanation from AVI in past threads.

 

[Anonymous]

My iBasso D10 is quite open about what is inside it, the Wolfson 8740 DAC, same as inside the DacMagic, though iirc it has two of them. The USB comes from the PCM 2906, this converts the incoming signal into a S/PDIF signal, same as optical or digital coax.

then there is the chip amp, which has a range of options, I've just stuck with the stock one for the moment, even the D10 amp alone is a big jump ahead of my iPod 5G. I think the issue is not that these components are cheap, it is that 1000 components at $4 each vs $5 each is a big difference. So savings of a few cents count given the volumes. Particularly when looked at as cashflow. Components are paid for before the product is sold often.

The AMB Labs site has links to tons of detail about the design of these kinds of components and their tradeoffs. amb.org, they have a kit based gamma1 DAC which uses a tiny WM8501 DAC chip.

 

[Alec]

The dealer i went to says its a state of the art burr brown or wolfson, but he's yet to find the actual reference number.

 

[John Duncan]

It's purportedly the Wolfson 8741 (I only say purportedly as that's reported elsewhere, as opposed to on the AVI website or literature).

 

[Alec]

Cheers John.

Do we know what the beresford one is?

Then i guess one would need to know the differences in their capabilities and whether this matters to ones music collection...

 

[Clare Newsome]

It is also worth reiterating that just because a core ingredient in the hi-fi recipe is the same, is doesn't mean the sound will end up, er, tasting the same.

To extend my tortured metaphor still further...plenty of meals include similar ingredients, but can taste totally different, depending on the exact combination, preparation (and chef!)

(Can you tell i'm hungry?)

 

[Alec]

LOL! You should always have something to combat that mid afternoon sugar drop, clare. Or try getting up in the afternoon like me...

This is exactly what im getting at, and im trying to ascertain whether people think its true (i guess yes) and how it happens - what it is about the "implementation" that makes the difference...

 

[chebby]

Why - with a pair of ADM9.1's on order - are you concerned with what DAC chip a Beresford uses?

 

[Alec]

Funny you should ask, Chebby. A friend asked first of all. Then we got to talking about how economical the AVIs are/not for what you get, started talking margins etc...

Then i remembered certain posts on here in the past about how DACs are pretty cheap with the implementation being the most important thing, which just lead to the urge to educate meself...

...EDIT i mean, for all i know, they may have used the same chip, then a comaprison and unerstanding of their implementation would have been really interesting...

All very vague, but i hope that kind of answers your question.

(Mind, ive figured how to compare the beresford to the 9.1s DAC if i want...)

 

[chebby]

Anyway.

My old Arcam Solo-Mini used a Wolfson WM8740 DAC for it's CD player whereas my Naim CD5i uses a real old 'clunker' WM8706 (chosen according to Naim after listening tests).

Guess which CD player blows the other into the weeds? (Clue as to my opinion is in my signature.)

So it is really nothing much to do with the DAC chip used. A Rega Apollo also uses the Wolfson WM8740 and yet sounds different again.

Swapping opamps in my Beresford TC-7520 made major improvements for the grand total of about £4 per opamp*.

The £1100 Benchmark DAC1 USB uses the self same 50p opamps* that I replaced in my Beresford so you can see that unless you are really qualified in audio electronics design this whole subject can be very confusing.

It is all a balancing act between cost and performance and certain DAC chips gain 'cult' status due to manufacturers and hifi forums 'name dropping' them.

In reality it is what the finished product sounds like to you that matters.

*Needless to say all these components cost pennies (in bulk) to manufacturers. I am just quoting the prices you and I would pay.

 

[John Duncan]

A Wolfson 8741 costs about a fiver...