Is NAD C375BEE too much overkill?

Stephan A

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Hello there.

I am currently considering to buy the NAD C375BEE with the DAC modul included for rougly 560 £. To me it seems like a good deal but I am not sure if it is shooting birds with canons. My primary source will be my computer and the TV. When it comes to speakers, I am looking on speakers in the pricerange 250 £ to 500 £ per speaker.

I know it is quite a gap. The ones I have looked at, have been the Monitor Audio BX 5 and Silver 1 to 6. Also the Dali Ikon 1, 2 or 5 is an option, but I lean more towards the Monitor Audios. I have also heard the B&W's but they didn't do much for me. So far, I don't know if it will be stands or FT. So, I don't know if the speakers I am looking at currently can justify investing in such a powerful amp? Or is there more to it than just the power?

I am quite interested in getting as good a sound experience as possible - the whole dynamic, tight bass, a nice sound image with details. Or come as close to that given my funds.

I also had a lot of recent replies under another topic where I was suggested active speakers such as ADAM ARTist 6 and NuPro A-300 from Nubert which I also found quite interesting. I would also like to drag these suggestions into the picture to compare them with the speaker solutions I mention above matched with the NAD C375BEE or any other better matching AMP.

So, first and foremost : Are the money wasted on buying such a powerful amp for the mentioned speakers?

Secondly; Which will give me the best solution - The passive + amp or the active solution? I know soundtaste is subjective but you will always be able to compare the degree of details, clarity and so forth.

Kind regards :cheers:
 

newtohifijkt

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Should be not a waste.

Better amplification will only benefit your speaker. Some of the speakers mentioned by you are not that sensitive anyway (Silver 1 has 87db versus BX5 which has 90db)

can't answer your second question. I have no experience with active speaker.
 

JamesMellor

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Hi ,

I'd have no problem with the idea of £1000 - £1200 amp / £ 500 - £800 speakers combo and would proberly consider that about the right split alot of other people would say the other way around . I assume the amp is ex dem or 2nd hand for that price ?

But ! you really need to try and listen to them first I haven't heard that amp , but compare the WHFSV review with the stereophile / Hi-Fi Choice reviews and you'll see why

James
 

Stephan A

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JamesMellor said:
Hi ,

I'd have no problem with the idea of £1000 - £1200 amp / £ 500 - £800 speakers combo and would proberly consider that about the right split alot of other people would say the other way around . I assume the amp is ex dem or 2nd hand for that price ?

What makes you say that it is about the right split when others wouldn´t? And what would other people suggest. Please share your opinion and exerperience with me :)

JamesMellor said:
But ! you really need to try and listen to them first I haven't heard that amp , but compare the WHFSV review with the stereophile / Hi-Fi Choice reviews and you'll see why

James

I did some research and to be honest, I could only find a less positive review about this Amp from What hifi. Compared with the 3-4 other positive reviews I've found from other, in my world, respected sides, I would lean more towards those than 1 negative review :)
 

JamesMellor

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Okay , I'll nail my colours to the mast , this is my opinion , it's free and it's worth what it costs : I think the speaker : amp ratio should be 2:3 , the amp has to control the speakers and also be able to meet thier demands .

Speakers make the most differance in sound but I dont think that means spend most on the speakers I think that means spend to get the best from the speakers .

My experiance was always to upgade the amp before the speakers .

Reviews are good , but only if you yourself listen to the reviewed items , read the reviews and then form your own opinion , what if your opinion is in line with the one negative ?

James
 

Stephan A

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Thank you so far for all the feedback.

I am still in doubt if I should go for a passive system or an active system. I have tried to find more information regarding the active speakers, but I find it really difficult find subject where active are compared with passive solutions when it comes to the sound experience vs same price. Any inputs on that?
 

Stephan A

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Thank you so far for all the feedback.

I am still in doubt if I should go for a passive system or an active system. I have tried to find more information regarding the active speakers, but I find it really difficult find subject where active are compared with passive solutions when it comes to the sound experience vs same price. Any inputs on that?
 

JamesMellor

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active or pasive , that will turn to a flame war , if you have an option on a c375 at half price i'd just buy it , whats too lose ? you can ebay it at no cost if you dont like it

>shrug< suck it and see

James
 

pyrrhon

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Hi Stephan,

I own a NAD 275bee with the 165 preamp for almost a year now. I also have other amps : marantz 1403, technics and yamaha vintage. While some amps have enough juice, more powers just makes any speaker sound better and at low volumes too.The 275 is neutral while my preamp the 165bee is a touch warm. But with a NAD dac and the preamp in your box, expect a slightly warm sound that is close to marantz I think.

For my boston A26 it really take the speaker to another level compared to all other amps I have. I have a pair of totem hawks at home this weekend and it didnt pair well (the hawk is not your usual speaker) but otherwise on my paradigm monitor 9 its perfect and can create earthquakes ;) Its heavy, well built and if you take a look inside you'll be amazed at the size and built. Its true power there, it does not compare to some cinema amps rated at 150 watt, it abolutely kills them and plays in another league.

I totally recommand It and if you look around on internet, its always loved. As soon as you connect to any speaker its like another speaker. You will also benefit from option of a decent phono and the dac is good too and pretty close to arcam rlink sound wich I have and love. I move it around from time to time from my computer to my cinema system using the pre out. At the price you wont find better I think, Id jump on the deal If I were you. I paid much more and dont have the dac so I do recommand.
 

jaxwired

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The NAD C 375 is a superb amp. It will serve you well and if you ever upgrade your speakers you won't have to worry if your amp is good enough, it is.

Regarding price ratio of amp to speakers, I think people put way to much emphasis on this. I wouldn't think twice about pairing a $1000 amp with $3000 speakers or vice versa if I liked the sound. While sound quality does usually increase with price, the correlation is very loose and varys dramatically between various manufacturers.
 
T

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Stephan A said:
Thank you so far for all the feedback.

I am still in doubt if I should go for a passive system or an active system. I have tried to find more information regarding the active speakers, but I find it really difficult find subject where active are compared with passive solutions when it comes to the sound experience vs same price. Any inputs on that?

Hi Stephan, good question! Too much is made of it in my view. There are technical reasons why actives are a purer approach, but having heard a good range of active and traditional hifi systems in the last few years, I'd suggest you have a listen and go with whichever one you like best.

Active speakers may need a pre-amp, may need a DAC and may need adapters if your chosen model doesn't come with RCA connectors, or even optical or coax. Some brands just offer XLR and 1/4" jack inputs. Adapters are cheap however and this shouldn't be a barrier to selection as long as you check. They're most often also priced as single items and not in pairs. So £300 means £600 a pair.

Here's the Actives page from the excellent Red Dog Music in Edinburgh. A good selection, good prices and the staff are great. If you wanted to dip your toe in the water, have a look at the Roland DS7, which they're doing for £150. It comes with an onboard DAC too, so you'll have digital connectivity. A little mor expensive, but a great pedigree would be Yamaha's HS5, 7 and 8 speakers. Again affordable, but no DAC, so you'd need a pre-amp and a DAC (or one equipped with one, such as those offered by Audiolab for instance).

Check out some examples of both and see what you think.
 

Vladimir

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One thing everyone should have in mind is that the mantra Underpower amps kill speakers, not overpowered ones is completely untrue. :shame: Anyone with any basic knowledge in electronics knows this but the myth prevails on for 40 years now.

Cheerio. :)
 

dds

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Pyrrhon,

When you state "I have a pair of totem hawks at home this weekend and it didnt pair well" could you elaborate?

I found the pairing to be marvelous - see:

http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?cspkr&1395164555&&&/My-personal-experiences-moving-from-Stta

Drew
 

davedotco

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Vladimir said:
One thing everyone should have in mind is that the mantra Underpower amps kill speakers, not overpowered ones is completely untrue. :shame: Anyone with any basic knowledge in electronics knows this but the myth prevails on for 40 years now.

Cheerio. :)

Perhaps you would like to explain this point to me.

I have been in and around the industry for most of those '40 years' and seemed to have missed this.
 

Vladimir

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Simply a 50WPC RMS amp can't kill 100WPC RMS speakers since the speakers can handle 100WPC RMS coming from an amplifier. Even when the amp is clipping, it is distorting the SOUND, to us, to our aesthetic brain, however the amp is still underpowered and can't fry the speakers. They will sound awfull but live. Watts and amperes are the same, regardless how it sounds through the speakers. Laws of physics.

An amplifier that can deliver more power than what the speakers can handle will not distort and clip untill the speakers do. And when it excedes the power they handle, the voice coil fries just like a fuse when gets a surge.

Back in the days tweeters didn't have ferro-fluid cooling and despite the fact they did their job ok, they didn't do it for long. After several hours of playing loud you had to lay off the Black Sabbath a bit since the voice coils were heated up and could fry. Today there is no such issue with any semi-decent speaker system.

And since you will (I presume) play the "my significant experience shows otherwise" argument from authority card, I shall too. Read what Ken Kantor has to say on the subject.

http://www.audiokarma.org/forums/showthread.php?t=425900.

http://www.audiokarma.org/forums/showthread.php?t=547335

Have fun. :)

If distortion killed speakers, imagine what damage this song could do through an old 30WPC Exposure. Or God forbid an NAD 3020!
eek.gif


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mc5enXwfFwo

Oh no fuzzy distorted rock guitar!!!! :rockout:

How many people killed their speakers with a Lepai amp? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1nNK8Nc73i4
 

davedotco

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Vladimir said:
Simply a 50WPC RMS amp can't kill 100WPC RMS speakers since the speakers can handle 100WPC RMS coming from an amplifier. Even when the amp is clipping, it is distorting the SOUND, to us, to our aesthetic brain, however the amp is still underpowered and can't fry the speakers. They will sound awfull but live. Watts and amperes are the same, regardless how it sounds through the speakers. Laws of physics.

An amplifier that can deliver more power than what the speakers can handle will not distort and clip untill the speakers do. And when it excedes the power they handle, the voice coil fries just like a fuse when gets a surge.

Back in the days tweeters didn't have ferro-fluid cooling and despite the fact they did their job ok, they didn't do it for long. After several hours of playing loud you had to lay off the Black Sabbath a bit since the voice coils were heated up and could fry. Today there is no such issue with any semi-decent speaker system.

And since you will (I presume) play the "my significant experience shows otherwise" argument from authority card, I shall too. Read what Ken Kantor has to say on the subject.

http://www.audiokarma.org/forums/showthread.php?t=425900.

http://www.audiokarma.org/forums/showthread.php?t=547335

Have fun. :)

If distortion killed speakers, imagine what damage this song could do through an old 30WPC Exposure. Or God forbid an NAD 3020!
eek.gif


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mc5enXwfFwo

Oh no fuzzy distorted rock guitar!!!! :rockout:

How many people killed their speakers with a Lepai amp? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1nNK8Nc73i4

I have had a look at your links, but it is the usual debate with different people expressing the usual views and opinions.

Tweeters, fluid cooled or not, are relatively low power handling devices. In normal use that is just fine as RMS or average power requirements are miniscule. When an amplifier is driven too hard it distorts producing lots of harmonic distortion which will be at higher frequencies.

Ferofluid or not this can be more than the tweeters rating and cause them to burn out. In a sense it is simply too much power but it is produced by an amplifier that can have a power rating much lower than the rating of the speaker as a whole.

Bass drivers suffer when an amp is overdriven too, overdriven amplifiers often produce a DC voltage (transient DC offsett) that for a split second will push (or pull) a portion of the voice coil out of the gap, at the powers being considered hear that is often sufficient to burn out or distort that part of the coil that is removed from the cooling effect of the metalwork that forms the gap. I once worked for a serious louspeaker company, and part of my training was to watch how speakers and drive units behave under stress, it was very informative.

There are other ways that damage can be caused too, but these are common enough and do not represent faults as such, but the way most amplifiers behave under stress.

Don't take my word for it, talk to any dealer, they will tell you stories of post party blown speakers and the usual excuse from the owner, 'its only a 50w amplifier and these are 100w speakers'.......... :doh:
 

kevinJ

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The 275Bee is a great amp that matches most speakers very nicely. It puts out almost 180watt/channel (if you check the measurements of real test magazines, so not what hifi) and is very dynamic.

Build quality is great too and the remote can handle most NAD equipement.

The only draw back I've found so far is the sensitivity of the volume controle. It goes up in too large steps (with the remote), but can be tuned in easily with the dail on the amp itself. The lowest setting of the volume can be too loud for background music, but that can be solved by placing the jumpers on the back from "pre-out1 to main amp" to "pre-out2 to main amp". You then get a little dail on the back to match the volume (normally used to match volumes when you also use an extra poweramp).
 

kevinJ

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And less powerfull amps kill speakers way faster than powerful amps. Clipping is what kills speakers 99% of the time. Burnt voice coils because of too powerfull amps can happen too but it's much mure unlikely.
 

Vladimir

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kevinJ said:
And less powerfull amps kill speakers way faster than powerful amps. Clipping is what kills speakers 99% of the time. Burnt voice coils because of too powerfull amps can happen too but it's much mure unlikely.

Hi Kev,

Can you explain how clipping kills speakers?

Thanks
 

davedotco

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Vladimir said:
kevinJ said:
And less powerfull amps kill speakers way faster than powerful amps. Clipping is what kills speakers 99% of the time. Burnt voice coils because of too powerfull amps can happen too but it's much mure unlikely.

Hi Kev,

Can you explain how clipping kills speakers?

Thanks

I have explained this in post 3 above. It is the errant behaviour of amplifiers driven beyond their capabilities that causes the problems. How many different ways can we say this?

If you are not going to believe the answers, why keep asking the same questions?
 

Vladimir

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davedotco said:
I have explained this in post 3 above. It is the errant behaviour of amplifiers driven beyond their capabilities that causes the problems. How many different ways can we say this?

If you are not going to believe the answers, why keep asking the same questions?

Amps produce AC not DC even when clipping. :shame: If an amp chucks out something like 5V DC, it's broken. That's what happens when tranzistors and diodes fail. They leak DC voltage.

Tweeters are low power handling devices since there is significantly less power going to them, this is what crossovers are for. High frequencies spend the least amount of power, less than 10% of the whole spectrum. No surprise bass eats as high as 80% of the power.

What most often happens when speakers fail with any amp is mechanical and thermical failures. Voicecoils, spiders, crossovers fail when asked to perform at concert SPLs and they werent built for that, they are home hifi. This is why pro PA speakers are built more robust at the cost of some sonic finesse, to survive torture of playing loud for long periods at high SPLs.

Underpowered amps allow for more prolongued torture at high SPLs of home hifi speakers since they can't fry the speakers with power instantly. Play very very loud with underpowered amp, it will clip and struggle, it will sound horrible but it will go on untill a driver/crossover fails mechanically or overheats. Play very very loud with an overpowering amp and it's instant death for the speakers. Pop! Out like a light bulb.

You are a broken record stuck playing on loop Dave. Time to learn new tricks. Unstuck now please. :poke:
 

davedotco

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Vladimir said:
davedotco said:
I have explained this in post 3 above. It is the errant behaviour of amplifiers driven beyond their capabilities that causes the problems. How many different ways can we say this?

If you are not going to believe the answers, why keep asking the same questions?

Amps produce AC not DC even when clipping. :shame: If an amp chucks out something like 5V DC, it's broken. That's what happens when tranzistors and diodes fail. They leak DC voltage.

Tweeters are low power handling devices since there is significantly less power going to them, this is what crossovers are for. High frequencies spend the least amount of power, less than 10% of the whole spectrum. No surprise bass eats as high as 80% of the power.

What most often happens when speakers fail with any amp is mechanical and thermical failures. Voicecoils, spiders, crossovers fail when asked to perform at concert SPLs and they werent built for that, they are home hifi. This is why pro PA speakers are built more robust at the cost of some sonic finesse, to survive torture of playing loud for long periods at high SPLs.

Underpowered amps allow for more prolongued torture at high SPLs of home hifi speakers since they can't fry the speakers with power instantly. Play very very loud with underpowered amp, it will clip and struggle, it will sound horrible but it will go on untill a driver/crossover fails mechanically or overheats. Play very very loud with an overpowering amp and it's instant death for the speakers. Pop! Out like a light bulb.

You are a broken record stuck playing on loop Dave. Time to learn new tricks. Unstuck now please. :poke:

Morning Vlad.

I see that I am not going to covince you of anything, so for anyone else still following this thread, here is a brief explanation of the DC phenomena mentioned above.

Amplifiers output stages are driven by two substantial DC 'rails', one for the positive half of the cycle, one for the negative. These rails should be identical but of opposite polarity, so that the centre point on the horizontal axis of a music signal is at 0 volts.

When an amplifier is overdriven the power supply rails can vary ('sag'), sometimes by a different amount on each of the two 'rails'. For the sake of simplicity let us say that the +ve 'rail' drops by 5 volts, while the -ve 'rail' drops by 3 volts.

The centre point between the two 'rails' is now at minus 2 volts compared to the signal ground, the centre point on the graph. This is the equivilent of 2 volts DC being imposed on the music signal, though of course there is no actual DC present as you say.

This is sufficient to displace the voicecoil forwad or in this case backward in the gap, by a significant amount. This has several effects, firstly the linear travel of the coil and therefore the cone is limited, again an example, if the cone can normally travel plus or minus 5mm but the DC offset causes the coil to be offset by 2mm, the maximum excusion, before bottoming is now only 3 mm. Secondly the displacement can cause a portion of the voice coil to remain outside the gap for long periods, deprived of the cooling effect of the mass of metal that forms the magnetic gap, the coil easily overheats and fails.

Tweeters are extremely low rated in terms of the power they can handle, a couple of watts is typical. In a modern two way speaker with a crossover in the 2.5k to 3k region this is not an issue on normal music signels at least. However when an amplifier clips it's output approximates a square wave, which can be considered as a sine wave with an extremely large harmonic content, ie lots of high frequency content. This is what blows the tweeter and is also the reason that amplifiers can sound over bright in some less severe circumstances, ie it is being driven into distortion but not yet into hard clip.

These effects are not always instant and briefly overdriving an amplifier by accident, say, will not usually cause a problem unless the accident is unusually severe.

However it is monday morning, and I can pretty much guarantee you that, in a fair few dealers across the country, there are customers with party blown speakers telling their dealer that it could not have been their fault as they only have a 50 watt amplifier and their speakers are rated at 100.
 

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