introduction and basic HD digital audio to DAC advise apreciated

[nlovie]

Hi, - i,ve finally decided to enter the 21st century and am atempting to get a grasp of the basics involved in digital computer to external DAC audio

Ok I like music, I don,t like computers :doh: so i,m hoping for a bit of advise and possibly direction to a source of imfo that is sutable for a computer numptie

Right, I have made progress though I am listening to my music via my computer, it is good - it is very good, but it is not as good as listening to the CD, the digital has more depth, a more open sound; but - but - it has a level of harshness on the higher notes that just looses the gains - if I can sort this i,ll be one happy bunny - but where do I go next ( snake oil versus fact etc..)

on the Audio side I have Audiolab 8200CD / DAC to upgraded quad 33 pre to upgraded quad 303 power to Quad ELS 63 speakers

on the computer; i have realtek ALC662 sound chip - using Jriver media jukebox - and USB 2 digital out - into the DAC of the 8200

now i,ve gone and done things like - volume max - switch off windows sounds, maximised buffering for more response

But: i,ve downloaded aiso4all but can not get the realtek to see it when I go to JRMC output mod. (I select direct sound) - then in output mod. settings I select the 8200 or primary sound driver - but again no aiso4all driver

So: some questions to help clarify my limited knowledge and confusion

1) how do I get realtek - or what ever to see / use aiso4all - do I need to ? i want a true bit perfect audio stream

2) the sound card quality - i,m not interested in the PC analogue output, I just want digital - does the sound card effect this - and if so what do you recommend as an upgrade

3) i,m using USB2 as the connection - is this the prefered over optical or coax SPDIF ?

4) now excuse my waffle here: I was told that fitting another sound card will improve things because it by pass's computer noise due to north / south system segragation - and the present inbuilt realtek is effected by this sorry i,ve got a littel bit of imfo and no knowledge here but I get the basic's - fitting a sound card is better ????

summary = I want nice clean bit perfect digital delivery, I don,t think i,m there yet - what do I need to do next to make it happen ?

many thanks for any assistance you can provide

 

[The_Lhc]

summary = I want nice clean bit perfect digital delivery, I don,t think i,m there yet - what do I need to do next to make it happen ?

Squeezebox Touch?

 

[Overdose]

many thanks for any assistance you can provide

I can't help with the ASIO driver questions or setup on your Pc, however I can offer the following advice:-

If using a music file ripped from a CD, try to ensure a higher bitrate if possible (I use 256 VBR), this should give you a reasonable sound quality.

When ripping music, select error correction.

Try a lossless rip for comparisson purposes and for testing the differences between the DAC being fed either USB or optical signals, one may be noticeably better than the other.

 

[nlovie]

Squeezebox Touch?

yes I am looking at this - so ( again please correct me if i,ve got any of this wrong)

advantages for me: the squeeze box will stream my digital music direct from my computer hard drive and hence by pass any cluttering software . drivers etc.. in the PC and hence give me a nive clean digital supply. I can then go and hardwire the squeeze box direct to my DAC via USB 2 ?

disadvantage: however, if I can get my PC sorted with an AISO signal - and can live with a calbe from the PC to the DAC - the squeeze box doesn,t really add anything ??? - is this correct ( noting i,m not needed the squeezebox analogue output )

 

[nlovie]

many thanks for any assistance you can provide

I can't help with the ASIO driver questions or setup on your Pc, however I can offer the following advice:-

If using a music file ripped from a CD, try to ensure a higher bitrate if possible (I use 256 VBR), this should give you a reasonable sound quality.

When ripping music, select error correction.

Try a lossless rip for comparisson purposes and for testing the differences between the DAC being fed either USB or optical signals, one may be noticeably better than the other.

thanks I have been experimenting with mp3 - itune crushed recordings versus FLAC and it's a great test - basically compressed mp3 files are like going back to the mid 80's cd player quality a dead digital sound with no depth and horribly clipped - thanks - basically the old rule of crap in = crap out

please keep the comments coming

 

[The_Lhc]

Squeezebox Touch?

yes I am looking at this - so ( again please correct me if i,ve got any of this wrong)

advantages for me: the squeeze box will stream my digital music direct from my computer hard drive and hence by pass any cluttering software . drivers etc.. in the PC and hence give me a nive clean digital supply. I can then go and hardwire the squeeze box direct to my DAC via USB 2?

Err, no, the SBT does have a USB connection but it's for connecting storage for it to play off, not for connecting it to a DAC (at least I don't think so), you'd need to use either optical or coaxial connections to a DAC. As you say though it bypasses all the fafffing around involved in trying to get a PC to output a bit-perfect signal.

 

[Jobb]

on the Audio side I have Audiolab 8200CD / DAC to upgraded quad 33 pre to upgraded quad 303 power to Quad ELS 63 speakers

on the computer; i have realtek ALC662 sound chip - using Jriver media jukebox - and USB 2 digital out - into the DAC of the 8200

now i,ve gone and done things like - volume max - switch off windows sounds, maximised buffering for more response

But: i,ve downloaded aiso4all but can not get the realtek to see it when I go to JRMC output mod. (I select direct sound) - then in output mod. settings I select the 8200 or primary sound driver - but again no aiso4all driver

So: some questions to help clarify my limited knowledge and confusion

1) how do I get realtek - or what ever to see / use aiso4all - do I need to ? i want a true bit perfect audio stream

2) the sound card quality - i,m not interested in the PC analogue output, I just want digital - does the sound card effect this - and if so what do you recommend as an upgrade

3) i,m using USB2 as the connection - is this the prefered over optical or coax SPDIF ?

4) now excuse my waffle here: I was told that fitting another sound card will improve things because it by pass's computer noise due to north / south system segragation - and the present inbuilt realtek is effected by this sorry i,ve got a littel bit of imfo and no knowledge here but I get the basic's - fitting a sound card is better ????

summary = I want nice clean bit perfect digital delivery, I don,t think i,m there yet - what do I need to do next to make it happen ?

many thanks for any assistance you can provide

Hi nlovie,

- By using usb, your dac is your (external) soundcard. The realtek is not used, and quality is not an issue.

- The newest versions of Jriver media jukebox do not support asio! You can start using Jriver media center (which you have to pay for), or use an older version of jukebox. Version 12 does support asio, and can still be found on the internet. Should you install version 12, you then have to switch output mode to asio, not direct sound.

When you've come this far, all you have to do is play some music and see listen if there's an improvement!

Succes,

Jobb

 

[Anonymous]

In agreement with a number of comments:

1. Maximise bitrate of your source files when ripping and don't buy files below 256kbps bitrate when downloading

2. Use a media player like JRiver Media Center - good info on there on how best to set up and free 30 day trial you can start using right now. Select WASAPI (Event) Mode. Other which I have not tried but is said to be good is Foobar, which I believe is free.

3. Experiment with connecting PC to DAC using optical cable instead of USB. I think this is meant to prevent any sound from computer's internal PSU presenting itself within the music playback. My own laptop does not have an optical out and my DAC is said to work better with an optical input. I therefore bought a Musical Fidelity V-Link II and which is a high quality asynchronous USB to optical converter, would highly recommend this route if you don't have an optical out from your PC. The USB outputs from my laptop are also not asynchronous (meaning the output from the USB is open to influence by the computer) which was another reason I went with the V-Link.

4. If still want to experiment further you might want to try JPLAY (there is a thread on this by ChaseFrench which you can look up if you want - personally I found it very hard work and my laptop couldn't seem to get it working properly but this may be due to my processing power of my laptop, have just bought a Mac and will experiment with it again using that). JPLAY can also be downloaded as a free trial and works using the JRiver (or other media players) interface.

5. Have a very good weekend

 

[nads]

Squeezebox Touch?

yes I am looking at this - so ( again please correct me if i,ve got any of this wrong)

advantages for me: the squeeze box will stream my digital music direct from my computer hard drive and hence by pass any cluttering software . drivers etc.. in the PC and hence give me a nive clean digital supply. I can then go and hardwire the squeeze box direct to my DAC via USB 2?

Err, no, the SBT does have a USB connection but it's for connecting storage for it to play off, not for connecting it to a DAC (at least I don't think so), you'd need to use either optical or coaxial connections to a DAC. As you say though it bypasses all the fafffing around involved in trying to get a PC to output a bit-perfect signal.

The USB can be hacked to work as a output. But you are going to have to spend a lot of money to get a DAC that out performs the ones in the Squeezebox Touch. It should not be as good as it is but it is.

Ps. Rip the CDs with EAC as max bit rate files. Store on a NAS somewhere on your network and enjoy.

 

[quadpatch]

I can recommend Foobar, for free it does the bit perfect thing well and you can download plugins for it for WASAPI, ASIO which will give you the bit-perfect output as long as you have Windows Vista SP1 or later. If you are on Windows XP you could also try the Kernal Streaming plugin. Foobar is not as pretty as JRiver but it should give you what you want.

JRiver is a nicer interface but fiddly IMO. Technically it does do the WASAPI output better than anyone else but as long as it works with something else bit-perfect is still bit-perfect. I have not had many less issues playing bit-perfect audio from JRiver compared to Foobar. Foobar can be a bit fiddly to set up the way you want but it's less fiddly to actually use day to day... again imo.

Like someone else pointed out using the Audiolab's DAC means you don't use the computer's internal soundcard at all and USB is the right way to go there as I'm pretty sure it's asynchronous (like the M-DAC?). I have only ever noticed noise over USB with 1 DAC out of 6 (the M-DAC was not one of them) and only ever on 1 USB port of 1 computer out of 4 - so don't worry too much about that.

 

[nlovie]

- The newest versions of Jriver media jukebox do not support asio! You can start using Jriver media center (which you have to pay for), or use an older version of jukebox. Version 12 does support asio, and can still be found on the internet. Should you install version 12, you then have to switch output mode to asio, not direct sound.

Jobb

thank you - version 12 now loaded and ASIO4all now the driver - please apreciate my thank's,

 

[nlovie]

I have only ever noticed noise over USB with 1 DAC out of 6 (the M-DAC was not one of them) and only ever on 1 USB port of 1 computer out of 4 - so don't worry too much about that.

it all went a bit haywire last night and I got a new type of error induced sound, it was like a high frequency disc stuck in a scratch type error, but it was like the error was layered ontop of the track - all's ok today - I think it was the PC busy doing an upgrade or a security scan ( the wee light that indicates the PC is working was constantly on ) i.e. I am getting interfearance to my USB outlet

thanks

 

[MajorFubar]

Sounds like the computer was very busy, just like you said, and the data-stream to the DAC dropped out.

Do you use the computer for anything else other than replaying your ripped CDs? Many people who stream music directly from a PC or Mac make sure that it's used only for that purpose. They typically won't install anything but the minimum number of apps, purely concentrating on what's needed for their music-streaming. Opening Task Manager on a PC and clicking Processes, it can be mind-boggling looking at what's actually running in the background. Much of it is genuinely needed for the computer to function, but also you often find lots of add-on cr@p, like software-updaters constantly running in the background for certain apps.

Also some people disconnect their streaming computer from the internet once they've loaded-up all the apps they need, which means they can turn off or even unistall any virus-checkers, because these too have a habit of slowing your computer down and randomly 'doing stuff' at inappropriate times. Naturally that's not really an option if like me you stream online from such as Spotify.

 

[Jobb]

- The newest versions of Jriver media jukebox do not support asio! You can start using Jriver media center (which you have to pay for), or use an older version of jukebox. Version 12 does support asio, and can still be found on the internet. Should you install version 12, you then have to switch output mode to asio, not direct sound.

Jobb

thank you - version 12 now loaded and ASIO4all now the driver - please apreciate my thank's,

You're welcome, let us know if there actually is an improvement in sound quality.

 

[amcluesent]

Reliably getting bit-perfect, HQ sound for a general purpose PC is aggro. Given the price of the Touch is a couple of fill-ups at the garage, there's no competition IMHO, plus you get a far better UI, remote etc. and can stash all the PC gubbins away from your hifi

 

[nlovie]

Reliably getting bit-perfect, HQ sound for a general purpose PC is aggro. Given the price of the Touch is a couple of fill-ups at the garage, there's no competition IMHO, plus you get a far better UI, remote etc. and can stash all the PC gubbins away from your hifi

yes, i,m learning this: OK so i,ve got a negative with respect to the Touch: unfounded due to lack of knowledge

The Touch requires data to be transmitted wireless from the PC to the touch ? - soo is this a HQ method of data transfer - comparable to a wired solution - - basically whats going on here ? - is the touch recieving data - then conducting it's own sampling - error correction before outputing digital to the DAC ?- this aspect makes me see the touch as a convienience versus a quality item ????

 

[nads]

Reliably getting bit-perfect, HQ sound for a general purpose PC is aggro. Given the price of the Touch is a couple of fill-ups at the garage, there's no competition IMHO, plus you get a far better UI, remote etc. and can stash all the PC gubbins away from your hifi

yes, i,m learning this: OK so i,ve got a negative with respect to the Touch: unfounded due to lack of knowledge

The Touch requires data to be transmitted wireless from the PC to the touch ? - soo is this a HQ method of data transfer - comparable to a wired solution - - basically whats going on here ? - is the touch recieving data - then conducting it's own sampling - error correction before outputing digital to the DAC ?- this aspect makes me see the touch as a convienience versus a quality item ????

The touch can be wireless or wired.

No idea on the last bit. Can you not have both?

 

[Anonymous]

Hi nlovie, per my earlier post I can't see why you need a SBT unless you are unhappy with your media player interface and think the SBT interface will be better, or you want to stream wirelessly.

A wired connection must be better than a wireless stream, albeit probably only marginally.

The SBT is well regarded on here generally and provides a DAC (but you have a perfectly good one in the Audiolab) and streaming capability (but you don't seem to want to stream wirelessly). Therefore don't see a need to spend money on one.

You will already be achieving bit perfect output if you have taken the advice of myself or others on your thread, which I believe you already have.

 

[nlovie]

You will already be achieving bit perfect output if you have taken the advice of myself or others on your thread, which I believe you already have.

Steve, thanks again - over the last 3 day's i,ve made great progress - mainly thanks to this forum, you guy's have taken the time and effort to help - where some other sights- hmm - best for the more advanced and knowledgable

I do now need to take stock, go play with downloads - CD copies etc.. and get what i,ve got fine tuned: Great!

I was getting a bit carried away with all this new found knowledge, sugesting to my better half, that - with but a minor bit of investment: We could have a music data store in one room - and we can stream music to the other room - without any clumsy cables - and she could then have the 4 shelves - presently storing CD's back!

My good lady is most impressed with this potential

thank's again

will report back in due course - once I get good solid repeatable results

 

[Anonymous]

Well not sure how much help I have been personally but will always try if I can.

I agree with what you said, I've found the people on this forum to be unfailingly helpful and knowledgeable and am grateful for the help I've been given, and the laugh out loud posts on numerous occasions.

Have much fun with your system.

 

[nlovie]

well it's all gone a bit

looking fwd to coming home and enjoying some decent listening to what i,d ripped from my CD using EAC via media jukebox version 12 because it could do asio - and it doesn't accept the file format that EAC saved ( now I thought I was ripping ot FLAC - but it comes up as a .WAV file - hayho what ever, even though it took about 20min to rip the CD) the message is asio does not support a sample rate of 11025hz ???? - so when did I ask it to - dunno thats black magic

OK so i,ll try using mediajukebox version 14 - |( horrible noise was made that could only be stopped by closing MJB

OK back to version 12 but try output mod. "direct sound" versus ASIO - and it works - but it has horrible lack of flow from track end to track begining i.e. just when your about to enjoy the fad out - it's gone to the next track

Now ASIO does work with FLAC and WAV files as i,ve got them on my computer from previous rips - sooo it's something i,ve done wrong on the EAC thing

this is why I'm scared to progress with this - my computer skill's are about to be witnessed by the window cleaner

ps forgot to add - the CD version absolutly spanks this latest version of a rip i,ve made using EAC

 

[nlovie]

OK re loaded my EAC program and tried ripping again and it works i.e. scrap my tantrum above :rofl:

FLAC with ASIO no issue - however

using a lovely but "take no prisoners" track -Parce mihi domine by Jan Garbarek from album Officium

The media jukebox version 14 without asio has that little bit more of a natural open sound - in line with the CD, versus the media jukebox version 12 - all very subjective and difficult to gauge = good! i.e. it now must be very close to me being happy :bounce:

so?

1)dunno - I must have done somit wrong with EAC - now fixed

2) I,ll dare to say; just go with the nicer easier to use MJB version 14 and enjoy, leave the asio thing for future considerations, - atleast until you get your bearings - maybe version 14 does what asio does by default -as said - dunno - but it sounds good

 

[Anonymous]

Hi nlovie, if not totally happy with Jukebox download the free 30 day trial of JRiver Media Center 17, have a play with that for a while. It will cost you $49 if you decide to buy eventually though. If you do, try playback in Theatre view which pulls down associated imagery and plays back the screenshots on your screen. If not try Foobar out, it's free.

 

[nlovie]

well i,ve had a few day's trying to enjoy my PC based music - -- - - - and i,ve gone and bought an old Quad 34 preamp for refurb and upgrade :?

dunno, can't nail it on a sentence - it's too digital - I know it's all in my head