How important are demos?

[plastic penguin]

This afternoon I had a couple of hours free, Mrs. P went Xmas shopping with ma-in-law. I was left home alone.

It was either a pint or two in the pub or go for cheeky dem - the was chosen.

Took my Leema, MAs, and a couple of CDs. The dealer had Moon i-1 amp and matching CDP. The speakers were Totem Arros - again - (different dealer) and I was staggered at the results.

The MAs were bright with both Leema and Moon - the first time I've ever heard them sound brittle.

The Arros, on the other hand revealed that going by reviews alone is hi-fi suicide: The Moon, according to reviews is a "barrel chested, beer swilling amp...", whereas the Leema is the sonic equivalent to "greyhound racing". Couldn't be further from the truth: the Moon was quite bright with both speakers and the Leema had a more prominent bass, and overall more impressive.

After all the testing, over the years, with different amps is how impressive the Leema is bar none.

Those Totems are as mad as a march hare. The really frustrating thing is the ball-bearing lash-up under the feet; it looks so odd and makes them look like they've been made by Reliant Robin Company. Very strange. Very unstable. Ultimately fabulous sounding for the money.

 

[altruistic.lemon]

I'd have gone down the pub, but there you go, you can't fight your genes.

So were you intending to buy, or was this more of an exploratory outing?

 

[chebby]

Those Totems are as mad as a march hare. The really frustrating thing is the ball-bearing lash-up under the feet; it looks so odd and makes them look like they've been made by Reliant Robin Company. Very strange. Very unstable. Ultimately fabulous sounding for the money.

Excellent. Are you going to buy them?

 

[6th.replicant]

There're two pairs on eBay...

 

[CnoEvil]

IMO. It's all about shortlisting.

You use reviews to make the initial "demo in store" list......that then produces the "take home and try" list.

Anything else is a lottery.

FWIW I have never got on with Moon amps, which I have found a bit bright (contrary to most reviews).

 

[plastic penguin]

Yup, the point of this thread is how essential demos are: My take on the Moon amp (first time I've heard it) is quite bright and not big, chunky as some reviews state.

Will I buy the Totems? Probably, but not until after Xmas (I made this very clear to the dealer before I left): The first demo I had earlier in the year I didn't have them, just the weird feet.

Anyone who buys based on reviews and star ratings are commiting suicide.

 

[MajorFubar]

Back in the late 80s and early 90s when I was young, free and single and could afford to buy new HiFi (lol), there were a good few times when I'd made my mind up re what CD/amp/speakers/cassette deck I was going to buy, then I'd go down the dealers and come out with something completely different because a five-star wonder didn't particularly impress me on the day.

To use reviews to make a shortlist, let your shortlist include any three-star-and-up which meet your requirements, not just five-star/award winners, then go and use your own ears to decide. Everyone's ears are different, as is everyone's idea of what sounds great and what sounds so-so. (We can possibly agree on what sounds naff, but even that might not be 100% clear-cut)

 

[plastic penguin]

Those Totems are as mad as a march hare. The really frustrating thing is the ball-bearing lash-up under the feet; it looks so odd and makes them look like they've been made by Reliant Robin Company. Very strange. Very unstable. Ultimately fabulous sounding for the money.

Excellent. Are you going to buy them?

Actually Chebby, the Totems would meet your criteria: They're very discreet, punchy and exciting. As long as you don't mind speakers sitting on ball bearings - and as your progenies have all flown the nest (and I assume you don't have a slobbering canine), they should tick 'The Chebby Acceptability Box' big time.

 

[Anonymous]

I think demos are the 2nd step (1st being reading reviews etc.), but more crucially as stated above, I think a home demo is the most important part of the purchase process.

 

[chebby]

Actually Chebby, the Totems would meet your criteria: They're very discreet, punchy and exciting.

Tried them out (twice with Naim and Rega seperates) a few years ago. My memory of them was ok but 'novelty bass'. (Very impressive on first listen because of the 'larger than the box' sound, but the gimmick wore off after a while.)

 

[plastic penguin]

Mmmm, could be right. My biggest issue was when I first heard them back in the summer (minus the chrome marbles), I had to double check to make sure it wasn't the RS6s rigged up - a shock to the system: "No, no, no...how can something so diddy sound so big...?"; something along those lines, but it was a real eyebrow raiser. Even now I'm still scratching the thatch.

The main concern are the marbles (the speakers not mine:? ). I know the WHFI review mentioned how disappointed they were by the plinth arrangement but no mention of ball bearings.

 

[Gusboll]

I reckon importance depends how you define 'demos' and what your personal circumstances are.

Currently listening to: Gene Vincent - Cat Man

 

[busb]

fairly important - I'd say but often my ears & brain have been frazzled by demos! I can remember hearing Totem Arros without the Claws about 3 years ago & was staggered by them - gobsmacked even. The other time I have been really impressed by a demo was hearing a Primare i32 a few months back. I have since purchased an ex-demo pair of Arros & would love to be able to afford the Primare.

Much of the time, I just can't draw any useful conclusions from shop demonstrations. If people think the Arros with the Claws are a lash-up - being bluetacked to a MDF platform would impress even less! The Arros are a product that seem to defy physics: they are just too small for the sound you get from them! They are now £1500 a pair. The Claws are a few hundred quid extra...

 

[Inter_Voice]

Well, most people say demo is important but for me I bought my gears just based on reviews. What I mean review is reviews that I can find over the internet including other discussion forum globally.

Now I have my dreamed system and the combination is entirely to my satisfaction :bounce:

 

[oldric_naubhoff]

Well, most people say demo is important but for me I bought my gears just based on reviews. What I mean review is reviews that I can find over the internet including other discussion forum globally.

Now I have my dreamed system and the combination is entirely to my satisfaction :bounce:

I'm in the same position as you are. (almost) all my buying decisions were based only on reviews found on the internet. and I value more those posted by actual customers. if I were to buy only what I can personally audition my set up would comprise of WHF budget 5 star winners. in fact my first hi-fi was just that, I went into my local (and only one) hi-fi store auditioned CDP+amp+speakers 5 star combo and bought it. now it's long gone and I have gear I would never have considered buying. and I'm one pretty satisfied listener

I think demoing is great if you can locally find what you're looking for. but if one's adamant that they'd buy only what they can audition they invariably limiting their choice. especially if you live in some secluded area.

 

[altruistic.lemon]

Secluded area in the UK? Where's that, then?

Try Daley River or Katherine in the NT before you carry on about secluded.

 

[chebby]

Secluded area in the UK? Where's that, then?

Try Daley River or Katherine in the NT before you carry on about secluded.

So you come from a vastly bigger and less populated country with lots of wilderness.

Well done!

 

[altruistic.lemon]

No, my point was to do with the whinging about not being able to get to demos because of "seclusion". Did you not follow that?

It's pretty easy to get to anywhere in the UK if a few hours by bus, car, train or whatever. Surely travelling a few hours to go to a demo isn't that hard in the UK, Outer Hebrides excepted .

 

[Anonymous]

I suppose I would read the review as a guide, but I would not let a 5 star review make a purchase for me. Even after hearing equipment in a dem room, I find it can still sound completely different in my own music room. So I guess the answer to your question would be – dem’s are important, but home dem’s are the only true way to find out

 

[TheHomeCinemaCentre]

If sound and picture quality are a major consideration then a demonstration is essential in my book. Forum comments/ reviews are to be taken with a pinch of salt IMO. I can think of several current products that get glowing reviews and user comments that just dont perform well enough.

Each to their own though - the selection and purchasing process is different for everyone.

 

[Inter_Voice]

Forum comments/ reviews are to be taken with a pinch of salt IMO. I can think of several current products that get glowing reviews and user comments that just dont perform well enough.

Any examples? Normally I don't read seriously on ratings from magazines but comments from forum/discussion groups over the internet globally have much more weight when I decide what to buy. One needs to use some sense to filter out what had been written in the forum discussions. Some feedbacks are just unprofessional but a large number of them are quite experienced in audiophile.

 

[TheHomeCinemaCentre]

There is no doubting the benefit of forum comments, if nothing it can alert you to products you may never have considered. Ultimately though if you are concerned about performance only you can decide what you like and that should be done in comparison.

You can go into any wine shop, pick a £20 bottle of wine and be happy with it. Try two and one will be more pleasing.

 

[Anonymous]

I guess the benefit of a demo then is two fold:

- you get to compare systems you have already "short listed" and so end up with a combination that you are "happy" with

- with the advice of the dealer, they should suggest something so you end up even happier (either with something you hadn't previously considered or more content in the knowledge that you got the best setup possible)

 

[MajorFubar]

- with the advice of the dealer, they should suggest something so you end up even happier (either with something you hadn't previously considered or more content in the knowledge that you got the best setup possible)

That's how I ended up with a Nakamich DR3, which I'm still happy to own. Went in the shop to buy an award-winning Sony something or other with Dolby S and all the toys, and my dealer said "Ever heard a Nak? Take a listen". There was no contest to be honest. And it was the same price, within tenner or so.

 

[plastic penguin]

There is no doubting the benefit of forum comments, if nothing it can alert you to products you may never have considered. Ultimately though if you are concerned about performance only you can decide what you like and that should be done in comparison.

You can go into any wine shop, pick a £20 bottle of wine and be happy with it. Try two and one will be more pleasing.

Please forgive my ignorance: If we are, as you know as a dealer, looking to spend hundreds or even thousands of pounds on upgrading or as a starter kit, so comparing it to a couple of bottles of wine is crass.

Far too often on here we read: "What speakers will match Cambridge 650?" or something along those lines. Clearly most live in the UK and could easily *** down to Richer Sounds or some other local dealer (if a different brand). I love giving whatever advice I can... a line, however, needs to be drawn. I've never purchased any hi-fi product without a thorough dem or home audition (Grado headphone the only exception).

I think reviews are brilliant to kick-start a person's voyage into the weird world of AV, likewise advice on forums does frequently help in short-listing, but ultimately we have to take responsibility for ourselves and trundle off to a dealer for a listen, then a home dem...