I have a 5.1 MA bronze set with the front 2 BR5's i use a denon1909 home cinema amp and the cd player is a CA 640h just bought it for £300 4 months ago graded stock so i have almost filled the 160gb hard drive. Im well happy with the sound, and cant afford to have a hifi setup and a home cinema set up, but just asking if a added a dac would i hear any improvement.
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When should you upgrade your hi-fi? How to control ‘upgradeitis’
how good would the CA dac be?
- Thread starter smuggs
- Start date
The good news is that you wouldn't. If you want to improve the sound in the future, add a stereo amp and run the cd player through that.
daveh75
Well-known member
Tarquinh: If you want to improve the sound in the future, add a stereo amp and run the cd player through that.The Denon 1909 doesn't have pre-outs,so that isn't an option for the op.
smuggs:I have a 5.1 MA bronze set with the front 2 BR5's i use a denon1909 home cinema amp and the cd player is a CA 640h just bought it for £300 4 months ago graded stock so i have almost filled the 160gb hard drive. Im well happy with the sound, and cant afford to have a hifi setup and a home cinema set up, but just asking if a added a dac would i hear any improvement.
Like you, I wanted better stereo sound from my AV amp (Onkyo 905). Up until a few weeks ago I was using it with BR5's at the front but found the stereo sound too lean. I bought a CA Azur DacMagic and changed my speaker cable from QED SIlver Anniversay to QED Revelation. The DacMagic is brilliant, it transformed the sound, giving more clarity, better soundstage and improved instrument seperation. Only trouble is, for more me that extra clarity on a system already sounding too lean caused a problem with some types of music, i.e. Rock, which became too harsh. The QED Revelation made a big difference, immediately a bigger sound with clarity but calming some of the harshness of the Silver Anniversary. Ultimately, I was still left with a sound that was too lean, particularly in the midrange, that may not be a problem with Denon though as I would imagine it has a warmer sound than the Onkyo.
I've bitten the bullet big time and have ordered a Arcam AVR600, but I think a CA DacMagic should make a difference for you. Plus, as I'm doing at the moment, you can upgeade in the future by sending your DacMagic to http://www.audioupgrades.co.uk/ and have improved opamps and capacitors fitted to make a better sound. For a total cost (including the DacMagic) of about £400 it's reckoned you can get a DAC equal to about £1K in value.
Like you, I wanted better stereo sound from my AV amp (Onkyo 905). Up until a few weeks ago I was using it with BR5's at the front but found the stereo sound too lean. I bought a CA Azur DacMagic and changed my speaker cable from QED SIlver Anniversay to QED Revelation. The DacMagic is brilliant, it transformed the sound, giving more clarity, better soundstage and improved instrument seperation. Only trouble is, for more me that extra clarity on a system already sounding too lean caused a problem with some types of music, i.e. Rock, which became too harsh. The QED Revelation made a big difference, immediately a bigger sound with clarity but calming some of the harshness of the Silver Anniversary. Ultimately, I was still left with a sound that was too lean, particularly in the midrange, that may not be a problem with Denon though as I would imagine it has a warmer sound than the Onkyo.
I've bitten the bullet big time and have ordered a Arcam AVR600, but I think a CA DacMagic should make a difference for you. Plus, as I'm doing at the moment, you can upgeade in the future by sending your DacMagic to http://www.audioupgrades.co.uk/ and have improved opamps and capacitors fitted to make a better sound. For a total cost (including the DacMagic) of about £400 it's reckoned you can get a DAC equal to about £1K in value.
pete 321, The onkyo if far more expensive than the Denon. Since the OP is already using a CA cd player, arguably the sound will not be massively different anyway. Finally, "upgrading" the Dacmagic will void the warranty, cost money and destroy the original designer's intent. True, it may sound different, but better?
I've had some experience with Denon AV amps, and to my mind the biggest improvement to the sound came when I changed the amp, which was an earlier model of the one the OP has. It simply is not a brilliant amp on the stereo side of things.
I've had some experience with Denon AV amps, and to my mind the biggest improvement to the sound came when I changed the amp, which was an earlier model of the one the OP has. It simply is not a brilliant amp on the stereo side of things.
Tarquinh:
pete 321, The onkyo if far more expensive than the Denon. Since the OP is already using a CA cd player, arguably the sound will not be massively different anyway. Finally, "upgrading" the Dacmagic will void the warranty, cost money and destroy the original designer's intent. True, it may sound different, but better?
I've had some experience with Denon AV amps, and to my mind the biggest improvement to the sound came when I changed the amp, which was an earlier model of the one the OP has. It simply is not a brilliant amp on the stereo side of things.
I agree, the amp would be the better upgrade, but he won't get a better AV amp for around £300 (although I'm selling my Onkyo soon!).
You can buy the DacMagic on a sale or return basis from Richer Sounds, so the OP has nothing to lose in giving one a go. I suspect that a cheaper Denon amp such as the one he has will have an overly safe sound, a DacMagic will open that sound up a bit more.
pete 321, The onkyo if far more expensive than the Denon. Since the OP is already using a CA cd player, arguably the sound will not be massively different anyway. Finally, "upgrading" the Dacmagic will void the warranty, cost money and destroy the original designer's intent. True, it may sound different, but better?
I've had some experience with Denon AV amps, and to my mind the biggest improvement to the sound came when I changed the amp, which was an earlier model of the one the OP has. It simply is not a brilliant amp on the stereo side of things.
I agree, the amp would be the better upgrade, but he won't get a better AV amp for around £300 (although I'm selling my Onkyo soon!).
You can buy the DacMagic on a sale or return basis from Richer Sounds, so the OP has nothing to lose in giving one a go. I suspect that a cheaper Denon amp such as the one he has will have an overly safe sound, a DacMagic will open that sound up a bit more.
John Duncan
Well-known member
Do you plug the 640h into the digital in of the AV amp or run stereo interconnects via the analogue inputs?
A cheaper option maybe to get the opamps/capacitors upgraded in the 640h (http://www.audioupgrades.co.uk/) and connect to the Denon via some decent analogue interconnects, you can get Van Den Hul D102 MkIII from eBay quite cheap.
Pete, I think you're missing the point. The 1909 is the equivalent of a £100 amp in stereo terms. The "improvement" from any of the mods you suggested just aren't worth it.
Gerrardasnails
Well-known member
Tarquinh:Pete, I think you're missing the point. The 1909 is the equivalent of a £100 amp in stereo terms. The "improvement" from any of the mods you suggested just aren't worth it.
I agree with Tarquin.
I agree with Tarquin.
Yes, of course a dedicated stereo amp will give better sound, but there are disadvantages, has his current av amp got the necessary connections, more shelf space needed, different sound in av mode on your fronts compared to your centre speaker.
I looked at exactly the same problem a few days ago, albiet at at higher level, I was going to keep my Onk 905 and get a Nait XS stereo amp.
You may be right that the modifications don't produce the sound difference required, but as long as he can afford to be without £230 for a few days, get a DacMagic and try it. If it's no good take it back. I've bought too many things on the advice of others or demos in a hifi showrooms only to find they sound cr*p when get them home.
I looked at exactly the same problem a few days ago, albiet at at higher level, I was going to keep my Onk 905 and get a Nait XS stereo amp.
You may be right that the modifications don't produce the sound difference required, but as long as he can afford to be without £230 for a few days, get a DacMagic and try it. If it's no good take it back. I've bought too many things on the advice of others or demos in a hifi showrooms only to find they sound cr*p when get them home.
smuggs:CA inters would digital be better
I would imagine the DAC's in your 640h would be better than your Denon, so I would stick to analogue interconnects.
What is about the current stereo sound you think needs improving? My experience with CA interconnects in the past was that they give deep bass - sometimes wooly, but didn't allow too much on the clarity front. Give Amit a ring at Custom Cable Service, tell him what your not getting and he'll suggest a cable to improve it.
I would imagine the DAC's in your 640h would be better than your Denon, so I would stick to analogue interconnects.
What is about the current stereo sound you think needs improving? My experience with CA interconnects in the past was that they give deep bass - sometimes wooly, but didn't allow too much on the clarity front. Give Amit a ring at Custom Cable Service, tell him what your not getting and he'll suggest a cable to improve it.
i like coldplay and rush of blood to the head when it kicks in changes speed ect i find the bass is a bit boomy if that make sense. The good news for me is that i have heard my speakers with a rotel04 {cant remember the cd player i think it was arcam}and the same song sounded awesome so i know the speakers are what i want the home cinema side is unreal i love it but just want a bit more control on the bass with music. I was thinking in getting away with my old sub thats a nail and saving £350 and getting the bronze MA sub that will go with my br5's Brcentre and Br1's and set the crossover at 80hz for example and hope that the speakers with lose the touch of boom they have.i have also messed around with bungs and if i improve the bass then say i listen to peter green or neil young it suffers at the background nosies all the little touches. so ive left all bungs out and placed them about 8inch from the wall. any views on the sub idea would be helpfull.i'll jot that number down and when i get a couple of hours free ill ring them thanks alot for your time pete,
simon
simon
Gerrardasnails
Well-known member
smuggs:
i like coldplay and rush of blood to the head when it kicks in changes speed ect i find the bass is a bit boomy if that make sense. The good news for me is that i have heard my speakers with a rotel04 {cant remember the cd player i think it was arcam}and the same song sounded awesome so i know the speakers are what i want the home cinema side is unreal i love it but just want a bit more control on the bass with music. I was thinking in getting away with my old sub thats a nail and saving £350 and getting the bronze MA sub that will go with my br5's Brcentre and Br1's and set the crossover at 80hz for example and hope that the speakers with lose the touch of boom they have.i have also messed around with bungs and if i improve the bass then say i listen to peter green or neil young it suffers at the background nosies all the little touches. so ive left all bungs out and placed them about 8inch from the wall. any views on the sub idea would be helpfull.i'll jot that number down and when i get a couple of hours free ill ring them thanks alot for your time pete,
simon
Seriously, to get the sound you are after, you will need to get a stereo amp (or a much better receiver). Then, if you want to incorporate your surround system, you will need to change your receiver for one with pre outs. Sorry to be the bearer of bad news but I just can't see a way around this. The Denon for the Sony 2400es (maybe a £100 loss but a better receiver to boot). And then a stereo amp like the new CA 650? Total around £450 but plenty of smiling!
i like coldplay and rush of blood to the head when it kicks in changes speed ect i find the bass is a bit boomy if that make sense. The good news for me is that i have heard my speakers with a rotel04 {cant remember the cd player i think it was arcam}and the same song sounded awesome so i know the speakers are what i want the home cinema side is unreal i love it but just want a bit more control on the bass with music. I was thinking in getting away with my old sub thats a nail and saving £350 and getting the bronze MA sub that will go with my br5's Brcentre and Br1's and set the crossover at 80hz for example and hope that the speakers with lose the touch of boom they have.i have also messed around with bungs and if i improve the bass then say i listen to peter green or neil young it suffers at the background nosies all the little touches. so ive left all bungs out and placed them about 8inch from the wall. any views on the sub idea would be helpfull.i'll jot that number down and when i get a couple of hours free ill ring them thanks alot for your time pete,
simon
Seriously, to get the sound you are after, you will need to get a stereo amp (or a much better receiver). Then, if you want to incorporate your surround system, you will need to change your receiver for one with pre outs. Sorry to be the bearer of bad news but I just can't see a way around this. The Denon for the Sony 2400es (maybe a £100 loss but a better receiver to boot). And then a stereo amp like the new CA 650? Total around £450 but plenty of smiling!
thanks for the advise i do feel that i need to look at changing the cd player i love the fact that this one has a 160gb hard drive but that might be a factor. The sony i did not like i could of had it for the same money but the movie side was not as good and i felt pete doherty's vocie sounded alot more closer to real life with the denon1909 but thats me i have only only heard great things about the sony.Plus the denon keeps the volume at the sme level when watching sky which is class. i am going to start a thread on how much a cd player can change a song
I've just had my DacMagic back from AudioUpgrades who fitted Dual Burson OpAmps to it & a few better quality capacitors here and there for £155. The Bursons need 100 hours to burn in, but I'm already well pleased with the sound! My Proac Studio 140's have suddenly found the bass that I knew they had, the midrange has gained depth, the treble has lost the harshness (Nirvana MOFI CD (ripped to lossless) belting out as I write). The speaker grilles which I'd kept on before to help hide some of the harshness have now been removed!
You don't need a DacMagic if you're already using a CD player, these upgrades could be made to the CD player and I think you'd notice a massive difference,
Can't wait to hear it through my AVR600 when I get it at the weekend.
You don't need a DacMagic if you're already using a CD player, these upgrades could be made to the CD player and I think you'd notice a massive difference,
Can't wait to hear it through my AVR600 when I get it at the weekend.
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