How does DAC affect the sound quality.

[valkodav]

Hello guys.

Lets get straight to the topic: Does different DACs change the quality of the sound in a particular system?

How does the DAC affect the sound quality?

Do they improve the sound or we just give too much attention on that topic?

Thanks.

 

[ChrisIRL]

In my opinion, and opinion is all you get in this thread, I would say yes and no. Some dacs do improve the sound (depends what you personally consider improvement), many dacs sound the same as each other, some don't do anything at all versus the source you connect to it (assuming that source has it's own dac that you were looking to improve).

I've been through about 9 or 10 different dacs over the past few years, be they stand alone units or inbuilt dacs in amps/ sources etc. Many do sound more or less the same with maybe a slightly different presentational emphasis. Some enhance treble, others bass. Some appear bring out more detail in the mids and so on. It really all becomes a matter of trying out different dacs and finding one that does what you like. What I can say with some confidence is all dacs do not sound the same, but it is up to only the listener to determine what sounds like an improvement to them.

Some will say differences are imagination only, I suggest they perhaps have not tried out a wide enough variety of dacs at a variety of prices. And no, more expensive ones will not necessarily sound better, not in my experience anyway.

 

[Thompsonuxb]

We did this one a few weeks ago.....

Anyhoo, a DAC is the sum of its parts. It also appears to be the buzz word for the cheap who believe they can turn Kurd into gold.

You get what you pay for in this hobby, although some times you do get lucky.

 

[MajorFubar]

You get what you pay for in this hobby, although some times you do get lucky.

Very true. Though I think it's true of most purchases really, discounting collectables.

 

[Andrewjvt]

That certain dacs will sound different, the differences are very close and it is hard to tell them apart in most cases.

I also think imo that the difference in sound quality from a cheap dac to an expensive dac is not great. Larger upgrades can be had from speakers and amps.

 

[Vladimir]

Though some audiophile DACs will be intentionally poorly designed in order to create a sonic difference. It can be FR coloration or just louder output.

Same thing with cables and CDPs.

 

[Thompsonuxb]

Though some audiophile DACs will be intentionally poorly designed in order to create a sonic difference. It can be FR coloration or just louder output.

Same thing with cables and CDPs.

Designed poorly?

What does that mean?

A poor design is one that blows up on you. If it 'sounds good' and is robust how does that equate to poor design?

 

[ID.]

You get what you pay for in this hobby, although some times you do get lucky.

Yep, and all advice on this forum is free. Make of that what you will.

 

[Frank Harvey]

Designed poorly?

What does that mean?

A poor design is one that blows up on you. If it 'sounds good' and is robust how does that equate to poor design?

I think what he meant to say was that some audiophile DACs are designed in such a way that they manipulate the sound in the analogue stage, in order to produce a house sound...

So basically, yes, DACs will make a difference. Some will be inperceivable differences I grant you, but others will make quite noticable differences - it's all down to the DAC being used, the DAC being compared, and the system itself.

 

[Vladimir]

Designed poorly means with non-flat FR and/or with audible distortion. Foul play is using tricks like louder output to simulate better sound. But really in most cases you don't need any change, just talk it up, price it high, and leave the rest to people's imagination.

Few years back I knew DACs were the next big audio foo thing and I wasn't dissapointed. People are actually hearing differences in DACs and every year a more expensive ones come out as reasonably priced. It really is a tragic spectacle, but funny in a way.

This industry really is free money. People will believe in absolutely any BS story and pay any price. Actually, the higher the price, more beliavable the story is. £1,400 Chord Hugo DAC. You've got to laugh.

 

[ChrisIRL]

Then again if the manufacturer employs tricks such as imbalanced FR or adding distortion does it really matter if the listener likes that sound as a result. The dac they like is the only device that creates the sound that is appealing to them regardless of how it does it.

 

[Ajani]

Then again if the manufacturer employs tricks such as imbalanced FR or adding distortion does it really matter if the listener likes that sound as a result. The dac they like is the only device that creates the sound that is appealing to them regardless of how it does it.

For the individual listener it probably doesn't matter (unless they could simulate the effect for far less money). The bigger issue is more the spreading of misinformation. So listeners and reviewers give the impression that XYZ ultra expensive DAC is a substantial improvement over cheaper options. When it's really just a case of colouring the sound to create a different, rather than improved sound.

 

[Native_bon]

Then again if the manufacturer employs tricks such as imbalanced FR or adding distortion does it really matter if the listener likes that sound as a result. The dac they like is the only device that creates the sound that is appealing to them regardless of how it does it.

Cannot agree more.

 

[ChrisIRL]

Then again if the manufacturer employs tricks such as imbalanced FR or adding distortion does it really matter if the listener likes that sound as a result. The dac they like is the only device that creates the sound that is appealing to them regardless of how it does it.

For the individual listener it probably doesn't matter (unless they could simulate the effect for far less money). The bigger issue is more the spreading of misinformation. So listeners and reviewers give the impression that XYZ ultra expensive DAC is a substantial improvement over cheaper options. When it's really just a case of colouring the sound to create a different, rather than improved sound.

I don't think only expensive dacs are pushed as being the best however. In fact a great number of reviewers and owners alike are touting the Chord Mojo as being as good as you are likely to need. It's in the lower price range too as these things go.

 

[Ajani]

Then again if the manufacturer employs tricks such as imbalanced FR or adding distortion does it really matter if the listener likes that sound as a result. The dac they like is the only device that creates the sound that is appealing to them regardless of how it does it.

For the individual listener it probably doesn't matter (unless they could simulate the effect for far less money). The bigger issue is more the spreading of misinformation. So listeners and reviewers give the impression that XYZ ultra expensive DAC is a substantial improvement over cheaper options. When it's really just a case of colouring the sound to create a different, rather than improved sound.

I don't think only expensive dacs are pushed as being the best however. In fact a great number of reviewers and owners alike are touting the Chord Mojo as being as good as you are likely to need. It's in the lower price range too as these things go.

Neither do I. I believe The Benchmark DAC1 was the most critically acclaimed DAC (both consumer and pro reviewers). At 1K USD it was the first relatively low cost (at the time) DAC to be regarded as about as good as it gets and had the measurements to back it up. Since then, even cheaper DACs measure spectacularly well too. ASFAIK, Chord DACs measure very well, so I'm not surprised the Mojo is being well received.

 

[Blacksabbath25]

well what i have found out about my old arcam ir dac is this it inproved the sound in detail with a marantz pm6005 _ cd6005 player running dali 3s speakers then i upgraded to the marantz pm8005 - sacd player now both cd players cd6005 / cd 8005 have the same dac's inside but they both do not sound the same now today i thought i would put the arcam ir dac back into the mix with the setup i have now and connected the ir dac to aux and sacd player running on the phono's on the cd input i kept switching from aux -cd input the marantz sacd players onboard dac was better then the arcam ir dac as the marantz sacd player was clean and clear sound but when i switched back to aux the sound had dropped a little and not so clean & clear the arcam irdac cost me £425 new when i first got it so it just goes to show that sometimes the onboard dac is better and no need to buy a dac to inprove your sound and much better of buying a better amp & speakers to inprove your sound *yes3*

 

[chebby]

Then again if the manufacturer employs tricks such as imbalanced FR or adding distortion does it really matter if the listener likes that sound as a result.

If the listener is being gouged for £hundreds (or even £thousands) for a £10 'tweak' in the opamps used? Yes, it matters.

 

[Thompsonuxb]

Then again if the manufacturer employs tricks such as imbalanced FR or adding distortion does it really matter if the listener likes that sound as a result. The dac they like is the only device that creates the sound that is appealing to them regardless of how it does it.

For the individual listener it probably doesn't matter (unless they could simulate the effect for far less money). The bigger issue is more the spreading of misinformation. So listeners and reviewers give the impression that XYZ ultra expensive DAC is a substantial improvement over cheaper options. When it's really just a case of colouring the sound to create a different, rather than improved sound.

Again with the 'colouring' - it's a nonsense argument, I'm sorry.

If DAC A gives you more detail, better definition - clarity than DAC B it's not colouring.

Its more information from the source due to better engineering superior math in its design, getting closer to the 100% of the source material as opposed to the 97% of the lesser player or standalone DAC.

I know the DAC in my olden but golden ax-620 is better sounding than the ones in my cdplayers it being cleaner - more precise.

Subtle differences as it may be it makes a huge difference to my enjoyment.(real world - no idea how they measure)

Currently looking for a decent repair service to...er.....service the old amp. It's coming on 15years - unbelievable - since I bought it.

Running my Rotel Ra-1520 which I resuluted I'd run till July, but it's just not the same.

Just thought I'd share.

 

[SonofSun]

Designed poorly means with non-flat FR and/or with audible distortion. Foul play is using tricks like louder output to simulate better sound. But really in most cases you don't need any change, just talk it up, price it high, and leave the rest to people's imagination.

Few years back I knew DACs were the next big audio foo thing and I wasn't dissapointed. People are actually hearing differences in DACs and every year a more expensive ones come out as reasonably priced. It really is a tragic spectacle, but funny in a way.

This industry really is free money. People will believe in absolutely any BS story and pay any price. Actually, the higher the price, more beliavable the story is. £1,400 Chord Hugo DAC. You've got to laugh.

Couldn't agree more, I sold my Rega Dac as I couldn't hear even the slightes difference between it and the Sonos dac.

Of course with amps no longer having tone controls people are buying expensive dacs to tailor the sound, I just think it is a huge con... or maybe my hearing is shot?

 

[Ajani]

Then again if the manufacturer employs tricks such as imbalanced FR or adding distortion does it really matter if the listener likes that sound as a result. The dac they like is the only device that creates the sound that is appealing to them regardless of how it does it.

For the individual listener it probably doesn't matter (unless they could simulate the effect for far less money). The bigger issue is more the spreading of misinformation. So listeners and reviewers give the impression that XYZ ultra expensive DAC is a substantial improvement over cheaper options. When it's really just a case of colouring the sound to create a different, rather than improved sound.

Again with the 'colouring' - it's a nonsense argument, I'm sorry.

It's on a nonsense argument in your application of it. You clearly didn't get what I was saying.

If DAC A gives you more detail, better definition - clarity than DAC B it's not colouring.

Its more information from the source due to better engineering superior math in its design, getting closer to the 100% of the source material as opposed to the 97% of the lesser player or standalone DAC.

No one disagrees with any of that. The problem is that all that would show up in the measurements. There are ultra-expensive DACs with measurements that support that they are indeed better engineered than more affordable ones. However, there are also very expensive DACs that measure terribly, but get raved about - these are the ones I refer to as coloured. An example being this $9,600 Audio Note combo:

http://www.stereophile.com/content/audio-note-cdt-oneii-cd-transport-dac-21x-signature-da-processor-measurements#EMRyagRT16c3mGHv.97

 

[Vladimir]

Designed poorly means with non-flat FR and/or with audible distortion. Foul play is using tricks like louder output to simulate better sound. But really in most cases you don't need any change, just talk it up, price it high, and leave the rest to people's imagination.

Few years back I knew DACs were the next big audio foo thing and I wasn't dissapointed. People are actually hearing differences in DACs and every year a more expensive ones come out as reasonably priced. It really is a tragic spectacle, but funny in a way.

This industry really is free money. People will believe in absolutely any BS story and pay any price. Actually, the higher the price, more beliavable the story is. £1,400 Chord Hugo DAC. You've got to laugh.

Couldn't agree more, I sold my Rega Dac as I couldn't hear even the slightes difference between it and the Sonos dac.

Of course with amps no longer having tone controls people are buying expensive dacs to tailor the sound, I just think it is a huge con... or maybe my hearing is shot?

If you expect to hear a difference most of the times you will, even if it isn't there. This flaw of our auditory nerve system is an actual advantage from evolutionary perspective. There is no penalty for hearing a predator that isn't there. There is a big penalty for not hearing one that is.

 

[Vladimir]

Then again if the manufacturer employs tricks such as imbalanced FR or adding distortion does it really matter if the listener likes that sound as a result. The dac they like is the only device that creates the sound that is appealing to them regardless of how it does it.

If I like the result, it absolutely doesn't matter how they did it. If I like something, even just by looks or brand history, I'll buy it and apologize to no one. But I hope I have the concious mind to not present it to others as objectively superior solution just because I like it. I've done this mistake and may repeat it in the future because I am a flawed human being, but I aspire to keeping subjective and objective things appart.

 

[ChrisIRL]

Anything expressed on here regarding unmeasurable aspects of hifi is an opinion. It would be assumed that everyone surely knows this.

 

[Blacksabbath25]

Designed poorly means with non-flat FR and/or with audible distortion. Foul play is using tricks like louder output to simulate better sound. But really in most cases you don't need any change, just talk it up, price it high, and leave the rest to people's imagination.

Few years back I knew DACs were the next big audio foo thing and I wasn't dissapointed. People are actually hearing differences in DACs and every year a more expensive ones come out as reasonably priced. It really is a tragic spectacle, but funny in a way.

This industry really is free money. People will believe in absolutely any BS story and pay any price. Actually, the higher the price, more beliavable the story is. £1,400 Chord Hugo DAC. You've got to laugh.

Couldn't agree more, I sold my Rega Dac as I couldn't hear even the slightes difference between it and the Sonos dac.

Of course with amps no longer having tone controls people are buying expensive dacs to tailor the sound, I just think it is a huge con... or maybe my hearing is shot?

you can still buy amps with tone control's marantz pm5005 , pm6005 , pm7005 , pm8005 *smile*

 

[matt49]

If you expect to hear a difference most of the times you will, even if it isn't there. This flaw of our auditory nerve system is an actual advantage from evolutionary perspective. There is no penalty for hearing a predator that isn't there. There is a big penalty for not hearing one that is.

No, on two counts.

Expectation bias isn't a product of the 'auditory nerve system'; it's a cognitive bias.

And as for the evolutionary argument, expectation bias works in both directions: it can make us think we hear something that isn't actually there, and it can make us fail to hear something that actually is there.