How big a rip off is high end audio?

[jaxwired]

So I'm reading a hifi mag yesterday and I see an advertisement for a new line of speakers from Klipsch. Now, I'm not a big fan of Klipsch since they sold out and went down market to produce mass market plastic-y rubbish. However, long ago they were a high end speaker brand worthy of respect, so I decided to take a look.

The new line is called Palladium and there are 3 floorstanders. They look pretty awesome. The problem is, when I checked out the price, the biggest floorstander is $20k. I was shocked and disappointed, since this is 4 times the highest price I would ever even consider. But, it's not like $20k speakers are rare anymore. There are plenty of them (amazing when you think about it). So that's not the part that bugs me.

What bugs me is that the second biggest floorstander is only $12k. These two floorstanders are almost identical. They stand nearly the same size, have the same finish, number of drivers, crossover, everything. The smaller one is just in a smaller cabinet and has woofers that are 8" instead of 9". So, it's very obvious how much of the $20k for the largest model is just plain gouging the customer. The actual material cost difference between the two models appears to be relatively small, yet there's an $8000 price jump.

 

[the record spot]

Just so long as when you're spending that $5k on new speakers, you're also planning on upgrading some of the rest as well. I've hear that thing about "speakers making the biggest difference", but you might want to upgrade to a £600 CDP if that myth's your bag!

 

[Anonymous]

While I appreciate what you are saying, I have to ask....does it matter.

This situation is the same in anything that I can think of not just HiFi.

Maybe If I could afford it I would buy a pair of 20K speakers......but its just not going to happen. Anyway before that I would have to buy a bigger house to put them in.

I put the difference in price down to exclusivity with possibly a little (read not very much) more R&D and updated components / drivers etc.

 

[plastic penguin]

I think it's irrelevant given the brutish size of even the smallest speaker in that range. To buys speakers of that calibre you'd need to live in a warehouse or barn.

 

[Craig M.]

maybe it's like cars, where the smaller models have much tighter profit margins.

i think i agree with ray though..... does it matter? if you think it's poor value, don't buy it.

 

[jaxwired]

plastic penguin:I think it's irrelevant given the brutish size of even the smallest speaker in that range. To buys speakers of that calibre you'd need to live in a warehouse or barn.

I agree. When I saw the adverstisement, I couldn't tell how gigantic they were. Even if they were reasonably priced, the smallest one is still way too big for me. But, Klipsch is an American company and people have bigger homes here AND they like big crude things. In America, less is not more, more is more. I happen to be in the minority that disagrees with this....

 

[jaxwired]

the record spot:Just so long as when you're spending that $5k on new speakers, you're also planning on upgrading some of the rest as well. I've hear that thing about "speakers making the biggest difference", but you might want to upgrade to a £600 CDP if that myth's your bag!

I hear ya. I'm not planning on spending anywhere near 5k. I just gave that number as something I would not exceed even if building my dream system.

But to be honest, while I do think I've got plenty of upgrade room left in the amp department, I'm skeptical that CDPs get much better than this cheap NAD. I see and hear little evidence of it. So my system will probably evolve to be a more expensive pre/power and speakers and my source will continue to be this cheap NAD. It sounds pretty great to me (now that it's working again, LOL).

 

[Anonymous]

I suppose it comes down to the adage that things are worth what people are prepared to pay for them. While I doubt that the 20k speaker is 'worth' 8k more than the next one down, people will pay that...well, because they will. Someone will look at the 12k speaker a few months/years down the line and think that they got second best, to someone with a lot of money, the 8k for the slight improvement in quality and knowing you have the top of the range speaker is worth it.

As with a lot of products, if you want a slight improvement you have to spend much more, in one sense because of the R&D costs, but vanity costs once you get to that level, and people will pay. Then again you could look at it the other way, is the 12k speaker a lot cheaper than it could be since it is so close to the 20k speaker in quality, the only way to tell is a comparison between 12k/20k speakers from other companies.

 

[the record spot]

Yeah, NAD's turned out some quality stuff over the years - their CDP's have been continually strong (£350's hardly cheap and is a month's wages for some!) and that's been going on for a good decade and then some; right back to the 521 and before I think.

Wasn't knocking it either by the bye...like the amp set-up though; interesting combination!

 

[gbhsi1]

We only see it as a rip off becuase we can't afford it. To a premier footballer, cost is not an option. That's my opinion.

 

[Anonymous]

The law says that there is a return, but it's an ever diminishing one the more you pay...

 

[Andrew Everard]

It's very simple: if you think the performance justifies the price, buy it; if you don't, don't.

 

[Bodfish]

Andrew Everard:It's very simple: if you think the performance justifies the price, buy it; if you don't, don't.

Bingo!

 

[gbhsi1]

Nobody told me we were playing bingo..!

 

[chebby]

gbhsi1:Nobody told me we were playing bingo..!

Also a lot of....

 

[idc]

I'm glad there are people out there with the income to buy such kit. Later on can give others the opportunity to own such, when they come onto the second hand market.

I think that you get a much better idea of the real value of something when it is sold on. Those speakers may only get £5k, so in that case they were overpriced and a rip off. But if they were to get £15k, then they were maybe not such a bad buy.

 

[jaxwired]

idc:

I'm glad there are people out there with the income to buy such kit. Later on can give others the opportunity to own such, when they come onto the second hand market.

I think that you get a much better idea of the real value of something when it is sold on. Those speakers may only get £5k, so in that case they were overpriced and a rip off. But if they were to get £15k, then they were maybe not such a bad buy.

Very good point. I watch the used hifi market quite a bit and speakers which sell for over £5k when new tend to sell used for around 50% original value. And that's when they are still the current model. More reasonably priced speakers tend to hold their value slightly better.

 

[Clare Newsome]

jaxwired:
So I'm reading a hifi mag yesterday and I see an advertisement for a new line of speakers from Klipsch. Now, I'm not a big fan of Klipsch since they sold out and went down market to produce mass market plastic-y rubbish. However, long ago they were a high end speaker brand worthy of respect, so I decided to take a look.

The new line is called Palladium and there are 3 floorstanders. They look pretty awesome. The problem is, when I checked out the price, the biggest floorstander is $20k. I was shocked and disappointed, since this is 4 times the highest price I would ever even consider. But, it's not like $20k speakers are rare anymore. There are plenty of them (amazing when you think about it). So that's not the part that bugs me.

What bugs me is that the second biggest floorstander is only $12k. These two floorstanders are almost identical. They stand nearly the same size, have the same finish, number of drivers, crossover, everything. The smaller one is just in a smaller cabinet and has woofers that are 8" instead of 9". So, it's very obvious how much of the $20k for the largest model is just plain gouging the customer. The actual material cost difference between the two models appears to be relatively small, yet there's an $8000 price jump.

Incidentally, we first saw these speakers previewed in January 2008 and they were launched almost a year ago (news story here)....

 

[Anonymous]

I think it is relative.

If one is earning 100,000 a year 1000 for him is sam as 10,000 to a person earning 1000,000.

Same value.

 

[idc]

Over what time scale would a speaker loose 50% of its value? I have only bought hifi second hand once, so no expert on that.

 

[jaxwired]

doctur:

I think it is relative.

If one is earning 100,000 a year 1000 for him is sam as 10,000 to a person earning 1000,000.

Same value.

I get your point, but just to nit-pick, it's worse than that since the first 100k of income is used primarily for necessities. 1k for the 100k guy is probably more like 100k for the 1000k guy.

 

[Anonymous]

Quite true.

But the thing is, it the pleasure of researching which the 100K guy gets for many months. which the 1000K guy never gets, as he pays immediately.

 

[RCduck7]

I had wharfedale speakers, a Yamaha RDS 640 and a dvd player which was for my music and surround needs. I was getting a bit tired of my setup as somehow i felt i knew there was far more better and musical stuff out there.

Problem was as with many of coursse, money... So i had been looking on the internet, browsing forums, got inside info and been listening to dealers... On how to get a setup that was not only high end but suited to my ears for only mid end money. I even listened to B&W 802's with Rotel gear but still wasn't really convinced that this was Hifi heaven, maybe for some but not in my eyes.

My integrated amp was 1200 euro allthough i could get an amp from the same brand and same sound only a bit less power for 900 euro which would do well to.

My DAC was 2nd hand 500 euro and not the 1000 euro newprice.

With speakers you got to be even more carefull, there are some very good speakers out there but most of the time they are big money if you want something really good, so i bought mine second hand after some good luck on locating a pair. Allthough you could try some Jungson Beauty Deity speakers which are also wonderfull... But i don't like to name brands becausse everybody's taste in sound is personal.

My speakers were 2750 euro and were 5500 euro new, even at the new price people raved about them and were being compared to speakers in the 10-15000£ region.

I can say that someone with a + 20000£ system came to listen at my house was pleasently suprised of how my system sounded, he now wants my amp and speakers to.

But to come as far as the system i now have it costed me a year of countless hours and many nights of research, and then i haven't mentioned comparing cables!

When i finaly listened to, what i call, my magical dream system, a big weight came of my shoulders and it brought a tear to my eye.

I don't feel the need to upgrade anymore...Yes, i finaly made it!!!

 

[RCduck7]

Clare Newsome:jaxwired:

So I'm reading a hifi mag yesterday and I see an advertisement for a new line of speakers from Klipsch. Now, I'm not a big fan of Klipsch since they sold out and went down market to produce mass market plastic-y rubbish. However, long ago they were a high end speaker brand worthy of respect, so I decided to take a look.

The new line is called Palladium and there are 3 floorstanders. They look pretty awesome. The problem is, when I checked out the price, the biggest floorstander is $20k. I was shocked and disappointed, since this is 4 times the highest price I would ever even consider. But, it's not like $20k speakers are rare anymore. There are plenty of them (amazing when you think about it). So that's not the part that bugs me.

What bugs me is that the second biggest floorstander is only $12k. These two floorstanders are almost identical. They stand nearly the same size, have the same finish, number of drivers, crossover, everything. The smaller one is just in a smaller cabinet and has woofers that are 8" instead of 9". So, it's very obvious how much of the $20k for the largest model is just plain gouging the customer. The actual material cost difference between the two models appears to be relatively small, yet there's an $8000 price jump.

Incidentally, we first saw these speakers previewed in January 2008 and they were launched almost a year ago (news story here)....

I heard the Palladium bookshelfs, they sound good for me but i wouldn't spend the BiG money on these BIG floorstanders.

 

[matthewpiano]

High end is, in my opinion, a state of mind and whether it is worth the considerable outlay is down to whether it brings you what you are looking for.

The law of diminishing returns sets in pretty quickly in hi-fi and I believe it is very very easy to spend more money and end up with a less interesting and less involving sound - even though it might be more technically 'correct'.

If someone has the money to buy ultra expensive gear, and they feel they are gaining sufficiently from that spend, I am very happy for them. To me, however, it almost takes the fun out of hi-fi, in the same way that money has destroyed football. It almost stops being about the music and centres on the ability to say 'Look how expensive and high end my hi-fi is. I even spent £500 on an interconnect.'

£500 is half a month's wages for me most months. It could comfortably feed us for two months, including eating out/getting takeaway a couple of times. I've spent too much money pursuing a sense of enjoyment and involvement that I now realise I'm only going to get from vintage Japanese gear - Sansui/Pioneer/JVC - and older British speakers. I've had far more musical fun listening to a 15wpc Sansui amp from 1974 in the last few days than I've had with any of my expensive kit. Maybe being an 'audiophile' isn't for me.