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Home demo of AS500, Cyrus 6A and Roksan Kandy K2 with B&W 684

gurjitsidhu

New member
Sep 7, 2012
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Hey,

Ive had my B and W hooked to an AS500 for about 18 months and it sounds very good. thought I could do better regarding amps so rediced to home demo the roksan and cyrus 6a.

All i can say is that the as500 is FANTASTIC considering the price! the cyrus gets very fatiguing to listen to because its very detailed and i have aluminium tweeters. the bass is punchier and tight...only just

the roksan sounds like there is a blanket over my speakers and the bass is so much that it ruins the mid and high.

overall, the as500 i feel is better thank the roksan by miles and just lacks the bass control that the cyrus has.
i thought the roksan would be able to control bass a lot better than a cyrus or at least the as500.

anyone got any other thoughts as to why these £800 amps dont sound any better than my £300 amp?
im not sure i will part with my cash yet. roksan is back in the box and not sure i'll even take it back out. cyrus is still hooked up for now.
 

BigH

New member
Dec 29, 2012
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Could be your speakers and your room. Also could be you and what you are used to.
 

matthewpiano

Well-known member
Nov 23, 2007
493
325
19,270
skippy said:
Could also be a case of if it ain't broke don't fix it
Agree entirely.

To the OP, celebrate the fact that you enjoy your music with the kit you have, and without having to splash out more money, and carry on enjoying it.
 

aienersmith

New member
Feb 18, 2014
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There are amps that sounds good specially when you buy to entertainment store, before you buy you have to double check it because others just got a good convincing technique.
 

gurjitsidhu

New member
Sep 7, 2012
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I thought I would update this thread. SO i ended up keeping the AS500. i was dissapointed with the Roksan but the cyrus was lovely. so detailed and if i had silkj tweeters I would have taken the cyrus.

The as500 really is a fantastic amp for the price. No wonder its won so many awards!
 

Thompsonuxb

New member
Feb 19, 2012
129
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Out of curiosity what source and speakers are you using?

I hope Vlad reads this.... Lol

I had a similar experience a while back but mine is an old dsp ax-620.

Yamaha are so underrated.

It's performance when compared to more expensive and modern designs was sublime.
 

Vladimir

New member
Dec 26, 2013
220
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Thompsonuxb said:
Out of curiosity what source and speakers are you using?

I hope Vlad reads this.... Lol

I had a similar experience a while back but mine is an old dsp ax-620.

Yamaha are so underrated.

It's performance when compared to more expensive and modern designs was sublime.
Ah, darn it. I'm so mad right now.
 

Thompsonuxb

New member
Feb 19, 2012
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I have to admit Vlad, when I read this topic it reminded me of our 'discussion' last week about the as500 and Focels. (the 684's being in the same ball park)

The Roksan is a strange amp though in that it's paper specs or power rating suggest it's far more powerful than it is in the flesh.

It thumps but compared to other Amps at half the power rating it does not deliver the sort of dynamic heft you'd expect it to.

What's your theory on that?
 

Jota180

Well-known member
May 14, 2010
25
2
18,545
Vladimir said:
Thompsonuxb said:
I have to admit Vlad, when I read this topic it reminded me of our 'discussion' last week about the as500 and Focels. (the 684's being in the same ball park)

The Roksan is a strange amp though in that it's paper specs or power rating suggest it's far more powerful than it is in the flesh.

It thumps but compared to other Amps at half the power rating it does not deliver the sort of dynamic heft you'd expect it to.

What's your theory on that?
Input sensitivity is the showroom killer, as discussed before. No nasty loudness tricks with the Kandy K2s, they are old schools (as the design would clearly suggest).

Also the Roksan is not a very powerfull amplifier. It's just a decent ok budget amp that delivers nice power in transient peaks but it's far from a power house. My appetite is far bigger than this little Roksan, especially with 4 ohm nominal, closed box speakers (most accurate but most current demanding bass). 100Wpc amps are my minimum, I don't even bother with 50Wpc ones with hyped up inputs. been there, done that.

Before this amp I had a Harman Kardon HK6900 (175Wpc) and it died on the 2 ohm battle front line. Like Dave mentioned before, typical music listening is 90% or more without breaching 1 or 2 watts of power. But when the speakers demand (especially low impedance and phase shifts), the peaks are fast and very high, easily breach hundreds of watts.

What I really need is a welder by Electrocompaniet or Abrahamsen. With easy going speakers I would retire for life with an Accuphase integrated.

Do you know why German speakers never sold well in the UK?
Our amps (in the main) piss poor power outputs.

I find there's a different outlook from countries like America and the UK towards hifi, speakers and amps especially. The Americans want full range speakers and they tend to demand serious amps.

The UK speaker sales are mainly bookshelf and are generally a bit less demanding on amps.

What many Americans on hifi forums fail to realise is the speaker difference between the two nations mainly comes down to the average room size of both nations. The UK has the smallest average room size in square metres in Europe. America has larger room sizes than anywhere in Europe and larger room sizes can accomodate larger speakers. The larger speakers require serious amps and America builds some seriously potent amps.

Here in the UK, with our pokey wee rooms, we need less speakers and a bit less amps. It's probably no accident that Japan are a big market for UK mini monitors given their, on average, smaller sized living spaces.

The average new build UK house is 76m squared. Ireland is 15% bigger, Netherlands 53% bigger, Denmark 80% bigger.

 

Vladimir

New member
Dec 26, 2013
220
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Jota180 said:
The average new build UK house is 76m squared. Ireland is 15% bigger, Netherlands 53% bigger, Denmark 80% bigger.
Add this diagram to the visual presentation. UK 76m2, Japan 95m2, Germany 109m2 and USA 201m2.

I want this...

 

Vladimir

New member
Dec 26, 2013
220
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Well noted Jota.

Regarding Germany, the DIN 45500 standard requires amplifiers to be able to push 4 ohm speakers with continuous power for at least 10 min. without clipping to pass the test. All speakers are tested on 4 ohm loads, never on 8 ohms. And in Germany standards are like stone tablets hand delivered by Moses. It is law on paper, moral obligation for the technician and satisfaction for the owner.

A good loudspeaker in Germany is a nearly a fullrange one, slim towers but easily under 35Hz, many even down to 20Hz. Most are 4 ohms and very difficult to drive and German amplifiers are suited for this operation. This standardization means you can't sell German speakers in the UK where the typical amplifier will certanly not deliver as well.

The fact that German speakers are full range and relatively flat, means they sound bright and bassy compared to the rolled off, midrange voiced UK speakers (compensating for the smaller room = higher room SPL enforcement). German audio is very similar to American. Simple proof of this is the fact that the two biggest markets for Japanese manufacturers were always Germany and USA. Big speakers, big sound, lots of VU meters, buttons, options and stacks of gear on racks on central living room display. Very different from the small half size boxes tucked in the UK living space.

On both sides OEM drivers were used, many times the same ones. The speaker build quality is not an issue both with UK or DE. it's simply the preferences acustomed to the living space limitations.
 

Vladimir

New member
Dec 26, 2013
220
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Thompsonuxb said:
I have to admit Vlad, when I read this topic it reminded me of our 'discussion' last week about the as500 and Focels. (the 684's being in the same ball park)

The Roksan is a strange amp though in that it's paper specs or power rating suggest it's far more powerful than it is in the flesh.

It thumps but compared to other Amps at half the power rating it does not deliver the sort of dynamic heft you'd expect it to.

What's your theory on that?
Input sensitivity is the showroom killer, as discussed before. No nasty loudness tricks with the Kandy K2s, they are old school (as the design would clearly suggest).

Also the Roksan is not a very powerfull amplifier. It's just a decent ok budget amp that delivers nice power in transient peaks but it's far from a power house. My appetite is far bigger than this little Roksan, especially with 4 ohm nominal, closed box speakers (most accurate but most current demanding bass). 100Wpc amps are my minimum, I don't even bother with 50Wpc ones with hyped up inputs. been there, done that.

Before this amp I had a Harman Kardon HK6900 (175Wpc) and it died on the 2 ohm battle front line. Like Dave mentioned before, typical music listening is 90% or more without breaching 1 or 2 watts of power. But when the speakers demand (especially low impedance and phase shifts), the peaks are fast and very high, easily breach hundreds of watts.

What I really need is a welder by Electrocompaniet or Abrahamsen. With easy going speakers I would retire for life with an Accuphase integrated.

Do you know why German speakers never sold well in the UK?
 

davedotco

New member
Apr 24, 2013
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I'll throw another thought into the ring, british building regulations virtually forbid the use use of timber frame structures, so an awful lot of homes are rigid, brick or concrete structures, horrible when used with bigger, wideband systems. The difference that the type of building makes is quite remarkable.

Again, this explains why so many people have bass issues in the uk, that and the fascination for oversize (for the room) and overly bassy floor standers. The lesson is easy enough, match the speaker to the room and most of the problems just disappear, trying to generate too much bass power in smaller rooms is a recipe for some pretty nasty sounds in my experience.
 

Vladimir

New member
Dec 26, 2013
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In the US concrete and brick homes are forbiden by law due to earthquake regulations. Not sure if only for individual states or full federal law.

Shake & Quake Earthquake Safety | MythBusters
 

Thompsonuxb

New member
Feb 19, 2012
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Hmmm....

While many homes have brick outter walls the inside wall is covered by plaster board with suspended wooden floors - later designs with concrete floors and plaster board inside walls no brick in between.

That said one of the main issues with bass is expectation or an idea of what bass should sound like.

Something that tone controls could sort out - but the idea that less is more when it comes to bass does not work with many.

It's like the using of subs - many systems I have heard with a sub, verge in the edge of the ridiculous....lol. (imo...)

Like young people who put subs in their car boots only to have it hit them in the back of the head when they fall asleep at the wheel.....bass. It'll ssound impressive has they roll by but in the car.....ridiculous.

Most bass problems could be cured with tone controls unless people want more or believe they need more - room size had nothing to do with it.

davedotco said:
I'll throw another thought into the ring, british building regulations virtually forbid the use use of timber frame structures, so an awful lot of homes are rigid, brick or concrete structures, horrible when used with bigger, wideband systems. The difference that the type of building makes is quite remarkable.

Again, this explains why so many people have bass issues in the uk, that and the fascination for oversize (for the room) and overly bassy floor standers. The lesson is easy enough, match the speaker to the room and most of the problems just disappear, trying to generate too much bass power in smaller rooms is a recipe for some pretty nasty sounds in my experience.
 

Native_bon

Well-known member
Nov 26, 2008
180
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18,595
This is the reason I have always said the way HIFI is sold makes no sense. No matter how good a system sounds in the shop or how expensive the HIFI is, there is a high possiblity it will not sound any were near as it did in the shop. Selling HIFI must include home demo. This should be the new rule book, cause you are dealing with acoustics & sound.

I had to do the hard work of getting speakers to demo at home 3 different speakers, 3times before getting the right ones for my room. It just has to been done.
 

Pedro2

Well-known member
Nov 29, 2010
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18,540
davedotco said:
The difference that the type of building makes is quite remarkable.

Again, this explains why so many people have bass issues in the uk, that and the fascination for oversize (for the room) and overly bassy floor standers. The lesson is easy enough, match the speaker to the room and most of the problems just disappear, trying to generate too much bass power in smaller rooms is a recipe for some pretty nasty sounds in my experience.
+1
 

Native_bon

Well-known member
Nov 26, 2008
180
2
18,595
BigH said:
Native_bon said:
This is the reason I have always said the way HIFI is sold makes no sense. No matter how good a system sounds in the shop or how expensive the HIFI is, there is a high possiblity it will not sound any were near as it did in the shop. Selling HIFI must include home demo. This should be the new rule book, cause you are dealing with acoustics & sound.

I had to do the hard work of getting speakers to demo at home 3 different speakers, 3times before getting the right ones for my room. It just has to been done.
No sure about that, I found many demo rooms in hifi shops to be poor, wrong sharp and lacking in furniture, bare walls, I find many rooms at home to be better although demo rooms do tend to be larger than average home sizes. I also don't understand why people want so much bass, for me it oftens gets in the way of everything else.
Not sure its a good thing to try speakers at home..?
 

Thompsonuxb

New member
Feb 19, 2012
129
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The Roksan K2 is not a budget amp nor Will it sound that much different to hi-end amps at 5x the cost, speaking generally of course...... :-D

And on paper it's one of the most powerful integrated amps out there.

Curious as to why you bought a British amp considering your taste in sound.

Vladimir said:
Thompsonuxb said:
I have to admit Vlad, when I read this topic it reminded me of our 'discussion' last week about the as500 and Focels. (the 684's being in the same ball park)

The Roksan is a strange amp though in that it's paper specs or power rating suggest it's far more powerful than it is in the flesh.

It thumps but compared to other Amps at half the power rating it does not deliver the sort of dynamic heft you'd expect it to.

What's your theory on that?
Input sensitivity is the showroom killer, as discussed before. No nasty loudness tricks with the Kandy K2s, they are old school (as the design would clearly suggest).

Also the Roksan is not a very powerfull amplifier. It's just a decent ok budget amp that delivers nice power in transient peaks but it's far from a power house. My appetite is far bigger than this little Roksan, especially with 4 ohm nominal, closed box speakers (most accurate but most current demanding bass). 100Wpc amps are my minimum, I don't even bother with 50Wpc ones with hyped up inputs. been there, done that.

Before this amp I had a Harman Kardon HK6900 (175Wpc) and it died on the 2 ohm battle front line. Like Dave mentioned before, typical music listening is 90% or more without breaching 1 or 2 watts of power. But when the speakers demand (especially low impedance and phase shifts), the peaks are fast and very high, easily breach hundreds of watts.

What I really need is a welder by Electrocompaniet or Abrahamsen. With easy going speakers I would retire for life with an Accuphase integrated.?

Do you know why German speakers never sold well in the UK?
 

BigH

New member
Dec 29, 2012
97
2
0
Native_bon said:
This is the reason I have always said the way HIFI is sold makes no sense. No matter how good a system sounds in the shop or how expensive the HIFI is, there is a high possiblity it will not sound any were near as it did in the shop. Selling HIFI must include home demo. This should be the new rule book, cause you are dealing with acoustics & sound.

I had to do the hard work of getting speakers to demo at home 3 different speakers, 3times before getting the right ones for my room. It just has to been done.
No sure about that, I found many demo rooms in hifi shops to be poor, wrong shape and lacking in furniture, bare walls, I find many rooms at home to be better although demo rooms do tend to be larger than average home sizes. I also don't understand why people want so much bass, for me it oftens gets in the way of everything else.
 

Native_bon

Well-known member
Nov 26, 2008
180
2
18,595
Vladimir said:
That's why we have 'burn in' period after purchase.
Now you just made the whole thing more complex..' burn in' & then find out its too bright or to dull sounding. Too late to return to shop. *dash1*
 

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