Help please - streamer question

baldy38

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Hi all,

If you are running a streamer into an external DAC (high-end) via a digital out, does it make any difference to the sound quality which streamer you use (assuming the same type of file is used)?

Because if it doesn't, why, if you have good DAC, would you buy anything other than a Squeezebox Touch? It would seem pointless to spend many times more than that if all the DAC is reading is a bitstream.

Forgive me if this is daft, but I'm only just dipping a toe in the streaming water at the moment.

Thanks for any advice you can give.
 

CnoEvil

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The question isn't daft and the answer you get will depend on who you ask. It is my opinion that the "transport" does effect the sound quality.

What Dac are you using?
 

John Duncan

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In my experience (which tends towards budget/mid-range rather than 5k a component) I can't tell the difference between competent sources into the same DAC. A 50 quid DVD player does not count as a competent source.
 

Overdose

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Assuming the same digital file is being played by all transports and dealt with by the same DAC, no, you won't hear any differences. I'd even wager that the £50 DVD player would be no different.

Streamers do come in different flavours though, so it depends on what you want out of your system. Some have disc players built in, some do not play all media file types, some have XLR connections for balanced audio output and so on. The SBT is considered good value for money, but it doesn't have the feature set of more expensive streamers, mainly out of basic economics, but it does what it does very well.
 

CnoEvil

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Is your system still Saturn + Tucana + 805S ?

IMO I think a SBT is cheap and will get you going, and you can experiment later at your leisure.
 
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Anonymous

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Overdose, where do you live and how much would you like to wager? I'm a electronics engineer in the RN, stationed at HM's Naval Base Clyde, but willing to travel if you'd like to put up a reasonable sum. Obviously, I will match that in the ever so unlikely instance I couldn't tell the differences between transports. For info, I work everyday on acoustic defense systems.
 

Overdose

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S.Coates said:
Overdose, where do you live and how much would you like to wager? I'm a electronics engineer in the RN, stationed at HM's Naval Base Clyde, but willing to travel if you'd like to put up a reasonable sum. Obviously, I will match that in the ever so unlikely instance I couldn't tell the differences between transports. For info, I work everyday on acoustic defense systems.

Pinky eh? Then perhaps you should know better.

Ever taken your car to a mechanic and realised they shouldn't even be allowed near a pushbike?
 
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Anonymous

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So despite your protestations of not being able to tell the difference and your assertion of "you'd wager" I assume you're not actually prepared to. :) Says it all.
 
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Anonymous

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Don't have to, I'll travel for a decent wager :) Don't be afraid now, if you're as adamant and convinced as you appear, what have you got to lose? No, not a Pinky, I build sonar weapons systems (WEO).
 

paradiziac

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baldy38 said:
If you are running a streamer into an external DAC (high-end) via a digital out, does it make any difference to the sound quality which streamer you use (assuming the same type of file is used)?

In my experience, yes.

I've used different computers, CD transports, USB converters, digital leads and mains leads (on the digital kit) and they all make a difference. But it does depend on what DAC you have and the rest of the gear as well.

That said, if you've got a Squeezebox and a good DAC, it probably IS pointless spending "many times more" on an alternative digital transport for what will likely be a fairly small improvement...only you can decide if it's worth it to you in the context of your own ears/kit/wallet.
 

andyjm

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baldy38 said:
Hi all,

If you are running a streamer into an external DAC (high-end) via a digital out, does it make any difference to the sound quality which streamer you use (assuming the same type of file is used)?

Because if it doesn't, why, if you have good DAC, would you buy anything other than a Squeezebox Touch? It would seem pointless to spend many times more than that if all the DAC is reading is a bitstream.

Forgive me if this is daft, but I'm only just dipping a toe in the streaming water at the moment.

Thanks for any advice you can give.

As Mr Coates rather long-windedly explains above, jitter at the point the digital signal is turned back into analogue (the D2A chip in the DAC) really matters.

It is how the DAC generates that clock that decides whether the streamer has any impact on the overall sound quality.

A DAC clock that is slaved to the clock in the streamer via the S/PDIF link will be very sensitive to streamer quality, a DAC that has a local clock and an asynchronous link to the streamer (async USB or wordclock output) won't be sensitive at all. Halfway in between are DACs with jitter mitigation circuitry - input filtering using multiple PLL steps, FIFO buffers and whatever else designers can think of.

So like much in life, the answer is not a simple yes or no - it depends on the topology of your system, and the design of the DAC.
 

Overdose

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andyjm said:
baldy38 said:
Hi all,

If you are running a streamer into an external DAC (high-end) via a digital out, does it make any difference to the sound quality which streamer you use (assuming the same type of file is used)?

Because if it doesn't, why, if you have good DAC, would you buy anything other than a Squeezebox Touch? It would seem pointless to spend many times more than that if all the DAC is reading is a bitstream.

Forgive me if this is daft, but I'm only just dipping a toe in the streaming water at the moment.

Thanks for any advice you can give.

As Mr Coates rather long-windedly explains above, jitter at the point the digital signal is turned back into analogue (the D2A chip in the DAC) really matters.

It is how the DAC generates that clock that decides whether the streamer has any impact on the overall sound quality.

A DAC clock that is slaved to the clock in the streamer via the S/PDIF link will be very sensitive to streamer quality, a DAC that has a local clock and an asynchronous link to the streamer (async USB or wordclock output) won't be sensitive at all. Halfway in between are DACs with jitter mitigation circuitry - input filtering using multiple PLL steps, FIFO buffers and whatever else designers can think of.

So like much in life, the answer is not a simple yes or no - it depends on the topology of your system, and the design of the DAC.

At what level is jitter audible and how does that figure compare with the levels of measured jitter in AV products?
 

paradiziac

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andyjm said:
A DAC clock that is slaved to the clock in the streamer via the S/PDIF link will be very sensitive to streamer quality, a DAC that has a local clock and an asynchronous link to the streamer (async USB or wordclock output) won't be sensitive at all. Halfway in between are DACs with jitter mitigation circuitry - input filtering using multiple PLL steps, FIFO buffers and whatever else designers can think of.

So like much in life, the answer is not a simple yes or no - it depends on the topology of your system, and the design of the DAC.

+1

To the OP, since there's no simple yes or no, you're probably best just asking other owners of your DAC if they've found it transport sensitve or not, and which input method gives the best SQ (doesn't that DAC have a Bluetooth receiver?).
 
A

Anonymous

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There was a heated debate in reponse to a similar question - in that case a Mac Mini compared to a dedicated audio transport, but whether a streamer or cd transport or, indeed, a pc, the same logic applies. Below is my response to the previous debate - What Hifi please forgive me if it breaches the rules to repost under a different question - but the transport definitely makes a difference, albeit that many people will not be able to hear it given the limitations of the rest of their equipment or simply, knowing what to listen for or simply not caring.

My previous response:

This is actually no different to the age old argument in hi-fi circles about whether cd transports sound the same i.e does "bits in " equal "bits out" in the digital domain,, and if not, why not. It has long been accepted that not all cd /digital transports sound the same, i.e. 'bits in," does not necessarily equal "bits out", indeed, transports have been engineered to sound different, but still people continue to argue that as nothing is apparently added or subtracted, the output of a digital transport must be the same as the data on the disk. Whatever the reason for this, and there could be many e.g. political posturing; lack of transparency in the system to notice the difference, a lack of willingness to actually, a lack of exposure to high quality audio equipment to be able to notice a difference (i.e. not knowing what t listen for) or a genuine lack of being able to hear a difference, which does not mean the difference doesn't exist.

Jitter has long been discussed as one of the reasons why digital transports sound difference, not that there has really been any consensus of what the term really means! Within audio circles, jitter refers to the timing of the digital data stream of ones and zeros - problems arise owing to the need for the said stream to be converted back into music with the same timing as when the content of the disk is first digitised. Failure to do so leads to timing errors in the PS range, otherwise known as jitter. As I said, digital transports can be designed to sound different, and much of this effect is achieved by focusing manufactured jitter on particular spectral frequencies of the S/PDIF signal – easy to pick up though an oscilloscope, and more commonly through the sound of the equipment.

Not all jitter is a consequence of the S/PDIF signal – much is a consequence of the digital processor's word clock i.e. The point at which the DAC converts the digital signal into an analogue output. Timing errors s in the clock produce voltage errors in the DAC's analogue output signal, degrading performance. The reclocking by the input receiver of the incoming clock from the S/PDIF data stream establishes the timing reference for the processor, hence not all signals to the said processor will be 'equal' across different digital transports. The level, and therefore impact upon sound quality of word-clock jitter is a consequence of many variables and interactions, including the level of jitter from the transport, residual RF hash from the transport (very common problem with PC components but some of which can be eliminated by low pass filtering) S/PDIF interface, the degree of filtering, the DAC's intrinsic jitter etc etc - whilst some transport jitter is filtered by the input receiver's PLL, anything above the jitter attenuation cutoff frequency (normally around 25 KHZ) is passed, degrading / changing the sound quality.

In the world of electrical engineering, there is no doubt whatsoever, that not all digital transports sound the same, but any notion that jitter only has a detrimental effect on sound quality haste be treated with some caution – as this may actual result in a less 'true' sound but one which the listener enjoys more. As for the Mac Mini, it is fantastic at what it does but it is not a tool designed for audio use – indeed, many of it's components are low rent even by typical PC standards – and if you compare the internal and external build quality and sophistication of components between it and expensive audio players, it will be found badly wanting. And yes, there will be sound differences based upon it's interaction with DACS but in many cases you would need revealing and transparent (therefore costly) amplifies and speakers to notice the difference, and also, be attuned to know how the differences are manifested, which few people actually are, besides, requirements differ in all things in life, what is good enough for one person may not be for someone else but that doesn't mean each has to dismiss the other's point of view. All electronics products are a series of compromises, a PC tends to have more than audio-alone products when used as a hi-fi, so, no, a £700 PC can not compete with a £8000 CD transport but it was never intended to. As for my personal usage, I use a USB DAC into my Mac Mini and I feel this is the way forward in the future to address some of the challenges - but certainly not all - I have discussed but USB has a long way to go yet!
 

BigColz

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Hmm I like the all in one streamer idea like cNo has said previously and i'm even sceptical about buying a Naim DAC even though they're the same brand and technically 'should' improve it but would have to go through the outputs and re-clock etc.. What would you recommend as a 'stream only' solution into the DAC cNo? Maybe try the squeezbox or Sonos to give it a go it will sound pretty good..

I'd say Audition some streamers at your DAC's price point (Naim/Linn) with a very good DAC built in then you can use that as your streamer and DAC and add other digital inputs to it (Mac, CD transport, TV etc) and sell the DAC.. If you love the chord DAC maybe there are other 2 box solutions, but either way yes the transport part def has a massive affect on the sound..
 
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Anonymous

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Very interesting question. I was of the opinion that a digital signal to an external Dac would be the same regardless of the way it 'got' there, buit then I found out it wasn't! Both players were connected to the Dac via coax

From my post in another section:

Well, I bought a Touch to replace my Duet, principally for the USB in which would allow me to connect a 320 drive and turn my 'slave' net book off.

So, all set up, a doddle compared to the Duet and we're off!

Except..... unfortunately the sound quality not as good. Seeking a second opinion I asked the good lady wife and she agreed*. The Touch is good, but lacks the detail and vitality compared to my existing set up.

I listen to my system pretty much all day, so am very familiar with the sound, and we checked them both against favourite songs, and particularily with live recordings there wasn't the feel of the vocalist being 'in' the room.

Another slight problem was the playlists on the drive wouldn't show up, but that could presumably be worked around.

So, a very user friendly piece of kit, with good sound but can be bettered, and in my case the money was better spent at Audiocom, though I believe they've now discontinued the service.

* in itself, a small miracle.
 

relocated

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baldy38 said:
Hi all,

If you are running a streamer into an external DAC (high-end) via a digital out, does it make any difference to the sound quality which streamer you use (assuming the same type of file is used)?

Because if it doesn't, why, if you have good DAC, would you buy anything other than a Squeezebox Touch? It would seem pointless to spend many times more than that if all the DAC is reading is a bitstream.

Forgive me if this is daft, but I'm only just dipping a toe in the streaming water at the moment.

Thanks for any advice you can give.

Just be aware that while the Touch is still being sold, it is 'discontinued' as I am given to understand. As you will have seen you won't get a definitive answer, only your ears can decide.
 

ngibbs

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I was told that a digital signal is only I and Os, so it shoudln't make any difference. Well, my ears tell me differently. With the same Dac (Cyrus DAC XP), my Sonos ZP90 sounds better than my MacBook Air with BitPerfect (surprisingly), and my CD player (Cyrus 6SE2) sounds the best of all. I'm sticking with Cds for the time being.
 

Craig M.

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Whether or not a dac is transport sensitive depends, in my opinion, on the dac. The only dac I've heard transport differences on was a Cyrus DAC-Xp. The QBD76 you (the op) plan on using is not transport sensitive (I used to own one), I tried about 10 different transports (mac, cd, dvd, bdp) and they were all the same. Optical was used in each instance.

As to could anyone tell the differences between competent (bit perfect) transports through a dac that had competent jitter rejection, I am sceptical. The only way to prove you can hear a difference in my opinion, is via a double blind listening test. There have been documented jitter audibility double blind tests done in the past, the most comprehensive I've seen sadly appears not to be hosted online anymore. The following quote from another forum contains some of the results of that listening test: "
From the lead author of the jitter paper
This is the reply I received - in its entirety.
================================
Quote: Dear Jim,

Thank you for the e-mail. I suppose that you read our paper titled
'Detection threshold for distortions due to jitter on digital
audio(http://www.jstage.jst.go.jp/article/ast/26/1/50/_pdf).' Before this
paper was published in the Acoustical Science and Technology, we had
published another paper 'The maximum permissible size and detection
threshold of time jitter on digital audio.' Unfortunately, it was written in
Japanese.

In our first experiment, which was reported in the Japanese paper, we used a
fixed listening condition and fixed materials. All of 14 participants were
university students without any special training. The audio system that we
used consisted of the following equipment.

D/A converter --- SEK'D ADDA2496S
preAmp. --- Luxman C-7
main Amp. --- Luxman M-7
loudspeakers --- DIATONE DS-205

They costed about $10,000. I don't know if they belong to high-end or not.

All participants could distinguish between sounds with and without time
jitter when the jitter size was 9216 ns. A few could when it was 1152 ns. No
one could when it was as small as 576 ns.

There was a question, however, if the result would depend on the listening
environments and the skill of the listeners. That is why we carried on the
second experiment. This second experiment is reported in the paper, the one
that you probably read.

Listeners in the second experiment were all professionals, audio engineers,
recording/mixing engineers, musicians, etc... Sound materials were selected
by the listeners so that each listener could use his (her) familiar
materials. The experimenter (we) visited the listeners’ studios or listening
rooms so that we could use listeners’ own DAC, amplifiers, loudspeakers and
headphones. The system configurations, therefore, varied among listeners.
They were mostly mid-end or above, I suppose.

As you can find in the paper, some listeners could distinguish the sounds
when time jitter was 500 ns. It could not be detected, however, when the
jitter was as small as 250 ns.

In both experiments, there was considerable difference in listeners’
performance. I don’t know, however, if it was because of their audio
experience. We had expected much better performance in the second experiment
because the listeners were professionals and they could use their favorite
environments and materials.

Our conclusion up to now is that the normal hearing listeners' detection
threshold for time jitter in program materials is several hundred ns.

I appreciate that you are interested in our paper. Thank you for asking
questions.

Best wish

--
ASHIHARA Kaoru
================================

So in expt 1 they had a range of 9000 -> 1152 for detection i.e a range of 1 - ~9 in terms of detection ability, none detected it at 576ns. This was on a loudspeaker system. Worst case say it was theoretically detectable at 577ns say they just missed it by 1ns. That gives us a range of ability of 1 to ~16.

In expt 2 a range of 2 microseconds to 500ns i.e a range of 1 to 4 in terms of detection ability, none detected it at 250ns. Worst case say it was actually detectable at 251ns and they just missed this by 1 ns. This is a range of about 1 to ~8.

Let us say that a really bad CD player has jitter of 1ns. So for this to be a problem, detection ability on this variable has to be over 250 times better than the best result found in the paper.

Even if audiophiles are capable of far far better jitter detection (and I do not concede this point at all until it is empirically shown in blind listening tests) who will, with a straight face suggest that they are a factor of over 250 times better than the best AE, Musician or Studio professional using their own listening kit (including studios) and music they are familiar with."

As you can see, the results of that test indicate that under controlled conditions, and through competent equipment, people really cannot hear the sort of jitter levels you are likely to get from anything used in a home hifi. I'm not interested in hosting anyone who would like to try to prove to me they can hear transport differences, life is short and I've wasted too much of mine obsessing over real and imagined differences in hifi components. I don't mind occasionaly reading about them though for entertainment purposes. :twisted:
 
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Anonymous

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Some succinct answers there, thanks.

Are there any/many other factors that effect digital 'throughput' in a transport or is it just jitter?
 

paradiziac

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Nogsk said:
Are there any/many other factors that effect digital 'throughput' in a transport or is it just jitter?

RFI (electrical noise).

Accuracy of the clock (if the DAC does not have a clock acting as a master as described previously).
 

CnoEvil

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paradiziac said:
Nogsk said:
Are there any/many other factors that effect digital 'throughput' in a transport or is it just jitter?

RFI (electrical noise).

Accuracy of the clock (if the DAC does not have a clock acting as a master as described previously).

IMO. Also isolation of components (ie. it's effectiveness) and quality of power supply.
 

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