hearing cables

[bayc oldboy]

can we actually hear the difference between a cheap cable and a more exspensive one

as we know we all hear things slightly different ie you stop hearing the higher end of the frequencies once you've gone past being a teenager.

are the results only to be found on an oscilloscope!

 

[Anonymous]

Just before christmas i listened toa couple of Air tracks on the gale 400 (i think) about £3 or 4 per meter compared to the Chord Odyssey 2 (£17-20 depending on where you buy).

Yes the Chord was better. The voices were more real, and the highs; cymbals etc weren't as harsh, but i wouldn't say that the difference was 4 or 5 times better than the cheaper cable.

Even the g/f (confirmed cable sceptic had to admit there was a difference).

 

[Sliced Bread]

My wife and I both noticed the difference between Silver Anniversary and Chord Odyssey 4. The Chord Odyssey had more 'body' to the sound, which it appears that the Silver Anniversary was perhaps filtering out. When using the SA cables I used to have to turn on the RE-EQ on my amp to curve the top end when watching films. I no longer need to do this with the Odyssey cable as the top end is more natural. The improvement was reflected with both music and movies.

 

[Anonymous]

Just replaced some old 79 strand stuff (make not known) with Chord Silverscreen only £5 per metre.........and wow what a difference

Fuller soundstage deeper bass and a smiling face from me, and to think I was going to upgrade my speakers,

Saved some cash for other upgrade

 

[Anonymous]

Most people agree you can hear differences in speaker cables.

The design of the cable can and does change the sound you hear. (Note I don't say improve - only change) clever designers can make a cable accentuate the higher ranges or the mid mid ranges of frequencies or more correctly attenuate some frequencies more than others.

So it is possible with speaker cable to change the sound you hear by changing cable. You might find you like the sound of a cheaper cable more than an expensive one in you set-up so price is no guide.

With interconnects (signal cables) it's a lot more difficult to be certain. Once you have a decent cable with decent plugs built to a reasonable standard then IMHO it's very hard to hear any differences. Again cables can be made that will attenuate choosen frequencies but the whole point about an interconnect is that what goes in one end should come out unchanged at the other.

Digital interconnects are always the subject if fierce debate on this forum. I personally think you can waste an awful lot of money on a digital interconnect for no benefit at all but then that's just my opinion. If you buy a digital interconnect that's accredited and meets the standard set then it should work fine.

 

[clearer_audio]

Hello oldboy,

When we are developing and testing a cable will do of course use lots of measuring equipment obtaining in depth specifications of the cables peformance. However as always the best way to evaluate any product is to listen and this is how we finalise a products development. The best way for you to evaluate the difference between any two cables (be it cheap and expensive, or similar price) is to compare them through a double blind test. This way you eliminate any other variables other than the cables.

Hope this helps.

Kind regards,

Darren

 

[Anonymous]

There's a million tons of tests to show that there is no scientific reason for there to be any audible difference between cables and just as much evidence to show how easily we are fooled and we fool ourselves. There is no audible difference and Americans Audiophiles are beginning to robustly dismiss this phoey. I only wish we'd catch up.

Below is an experiment to show how easily our perceptions overrule our sense of reason.

Ash

Wine price test shows marketing at work in brain

ÿ
Researchers in California have shown that you can increase a person's enjoyment of wine by just sticking a higher price on it.

In a demonstration of the power of marketing, researchers in California showed you can increase a person's enjoyment of wine by just sticking a higher price on it, according to a study released Monday.

Antonio Rangel, associate professor of economics at the California Institute of Technology, led a team to test how marketing shapes consumers' perceptions and whether it also enhances their enjoyment of a product.ÿ

They asked 21 volunteers to sample five different bottles of Cabernet Sauvignon and rate their taste preferences. The taste test was run 15 times, with the wines presented in random order.ÿ

The taste test was blind except for information on the price of the wine. Without telling the volunteers, the researchers presented two of the wines twice, once with the true price tag, and again with a fake one.ÿ

They also passed off a 90 dollar bottle of Cabernet Sauvignon as a 10 dollar bottle, and presented a five dollar bottle as one worth 45 dollars.ÿ

Aside from collecting the test subjects' impressions of the wines, the researchers scanned their brains to monitor the neural activity in the medial orbitofrontal cortex -- an area of the brain believed to encode pleasure related to taste, odors and music.ÿ

The study found that inflating the price of a bottle of wine enhanced a person's experience of drinking it, as shown by the neural activity.ÿ

The volunteers consistently gave higher ratings to the more "expensive" wines.ÿ

Brain scans also showed greater neural activity in the pleasure center when they were sampling those "pricey" wines, indicating that the increased pleasure they reported was a real effect in the brain.ÿ

"It's a common belief among scientists and economists that the quality of the experience depends on the properties of the product and the state of the consumer; for example, if a consumer is thirsty or not," said Rangel.ÿ

"But what this study shows is that the brain's rewards center takes into account subjective beliefs about the quality of the experience.ÿ

"If you believe that the experience is better, even though it's the same wine, the rewards center of the brain encodes it as feeling better."ÿ

In other words, "people's beliefs about the quality of a wine affect how well it tastes for the brain," he concluded.ÿ

The study appears in the Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences.ÿ

¸ 2008

 

[manicm]

I'd like to see responses to this!

 

[Sliced Bread]

Sorry James, but I have to disagree. The tonal balance between SA and Odyssey cable is quite clear. Almost night and day different.

 

[the record spot]

Yeah, whilst not being fully convinced of the benefits of cables costing several hundreds of pounds (or more), I could clearly hear the difference between my former interconnect (Nordost Blue Heaven) with its' replacement (AudioQuest Copperhead). The difference was quite stark.

 

[Tony_R]

It's inevitable that differences will be heard with different speaker cables in particular.

Every cable has different electrical properties (even different lengths of the same cable).

These electrical properties are different enough to make a difference in the sound.

There will also be major variations between which speakers and amplifier are used with which cable (did that make sense!!).

This is because different amplifiers will exhibit different (audible) characteristics depending upon the electrical properties of the cable.

These properties are:

1) Inductance

2) Capacitance

3) Impedance (the resistance at different frequencies)

4) Resistance (dc resistance, as would be measured with an ohm meter).

5) Construction, i.e. solid core, stranded core, etc.

6) Thickness i.e. current handling ability. (we all know that even upgrading the thickness of the cable changes the sound..)

It is a well known fact that some cables are particularly inductive, and can cause certain amplifiers distress, even blowing them (Naim I think??).

Even the properties (as mentioned above) of the speaker will interact with the cable influencing the sound.

In fact, take a long enough length of speaker cable, listen to the sound, then wrap the same cable tightly around a broomstick or similar (need 10 - 20 turns) - and I guarantee the sound will change...

So to state that cables have no effect is in my opinion (and experience) baloney.

The same theory applies to interconnects, but on a lesser level (i.e. not as pronounced),

Tony.

 

[Thaiman]

I thought we could at least wait until new year for the war!

I am using an expensive pair of cables and it has been many nights when I laid in bed, thinking May be I'm a fool

...well until next day when I press that play button again

If you can hear any audio different in cables then do it, go out and buy some nice looking cables with best buy sticker on the box, plug them in and feel fabulous because at the end of the day - hifi hobby is all about how great you feel as much as what can you hear.

However if you can't hear any different at all please do use the red and white pair that (use to) come in a box. Congret yourself that you now have more money in the back pocket than those audiofool. As long as you are not keep wondering "Would my system sound better if I use "X" cables"!

Myself? I have my own believe and it's not as black and white as "Can I hear any improvment?" but my advise to those that new to this game is "get every other thing right first!, you know the speakers placement, the right sysnergy between amp and speakers... etc ect and worry about cables later.

 

[ElectroMan]

I can hear a difference with cables, particularly speaker cables (but not mains cables!).

I replaced some cheapish van den Hul speaker cable with some much more expensive Ecosse cable a few years ago. I could certainly tell the difference - the Ecosse made the sound too bass-heavy (Kef Ref One speakers), so it was back to the vdH !

About five or six years ago (when I had possibly had more money than sense), I bought a very expensive CD player. The dealer lent me a Nordost Red Dawn interconnect he used for demos, as he was out of stock. When the new stock arrived, the used interconnect was swapped for a brand new one - I was warned that it wouldn't sound as good as the used one until it had been run it for a few weeks. Well, I couldn't hear any difference. Both of them sounded noticeably better than a cheaper (but still good) interconnect, but no different to each other.

So, what is the logic for 'running in' cables? I can understand how components might benefit, but is there any evidence that cables change after they've been used for a while? On a similar theme, how are cables made directional?

 

[Thaiman]

ElectroMan:

So, what is the logic for 'running in' cables? I can understand how components might benefit, but is there any evidence that cables change after they've been used for a while? On a similar theme, how are cables made directional?

Now that is the reason why many people think cables are the biggest joke in Hifi industry!

I don't believe in both, runing-in or Directional (although the latter do have some kind of reason behide it), may be Darren (who come up with Silverline range which are highly regarded) could explain the engineering side of thing to us.

To me "running-in" is for dealers to tell you that "They will sound better soon!" or "If you think they sounded good now, wait a few days and prepare to be shock!". and you also can spend a fortune on "cables cooking machine" that suppose to run-in cables for you! lol

 

[Tony_R]

ElectroMan:
I can hear a difference with cables, particularly speaker cables (but not mains cables!).

So, what is the logic for 'running in' cables? I can understand how components might benefit, but is there any evidence that cables change after they've been used for a while? On a similar theme, how are cables made directional?

I've yet to hear any difference with mains cables. Having some kind of filtering usually seems to make a difference though.

My guess is that the inductive / capacitive properties of some 'specialist' mains cables serve to filter out interference.

As for directionality and 'running in' - well...

The wire leaves the factory in a certain state - how pushing electrons through it can change that state I don't know... (but perhaps this is one a metallurgist could answer - and takers out there?)

Take a piece of wire - measure it's electrical properties - pass a current through it (ac or dc - any current within it's rated limits) and then measure it afterwards - I'm certain it'll measure exactly the same! Even after hours of exposure to said current / voltage.

There's the other great theory of passing a DC current through the cable or alongside it to "improve it's transfer properties" - believe it if you want to - I however don't...

As for directionality - a piece of wire is just that - a piece of wire - and it will behave the same way. not matter which way the current flows through it, surely??

Still, I dare not criticise a multi million £££ industry.. tch!

Tony.

 

[Dave_]

Dont quote me on it, but i seem to remember one of the cable manufacturers commenting on here recently that cable directionality has nothing to do with current flow as such, but the cable screening's ability to eliminate rfi/emi.

For what it's worth, i don't buy into burning-in or directionality of cables making any difference either

 

[Anonymous]

Tony_R:
Still, I dare not criticise a multi million £££ industry..

Why?

 

[Anonymous]

daveh75:
Dont quote me on it, but i seem to remember one of the cable manufacturers commenting on here recently that cable directionality has nothing to do with current flow as such, but the cable screening's ability to eliminate rfi/emi.

For what it's worth, i don't buy into burning-in or directionality of cables making any difference either

It's to do with the screening on interconnects and some concocted speaker wires, notably the Townshend Isolda, could damage your amp if connected the wrong way. Ordinary bits of wire can be connected either way.

 

[Tony_R]

Grimly Fiendish:daveh75:
Dont quote me on it, but i seem to remember one of the cable manufacturers commenting on here recently that cable directionality has nothing to do with current flow as such, but the cable screening's ability to eliminate rfi/emi.

For what it's worth, i don't buy into burning-in or directionality of cables making any difference either

It's to do with the screening on interconnects and some concocted speaker wires, notably the Townshend Isolda, could damage your amp if connected the wrong way. Ordinary bits of wire can be connected either way.

I fail to see how screening can affect cable directionality, as interference could originate from any angle.

Also - regarding the Townshend Isolda - again, I can't understand how / why connecting it the wrong way could damage an amp. However without examining said cable, I cannot comment.

Grimly - re your note about criticising the industry - I'm no expert hence I'm in no position to criticise.

I think it's fair to say that "this cable thing" is regarded as something of a black art in many circles.

All opinions given are those of my own, formed through tinkering with various bits of kit for many years, and also derived from my training as an electronics engineer.

Tony.

 

[Anonymous]

Folks,

I reckon Darren has the right idea - a proper double blind experiment. I saw an advert for some QED cable and I nearly fell off my sofa laughing. The wire has roughly the same capacitance, inductance and resistance as the fat bell wire I bought in a DIY store for 30p/metre. And the QED stuff is about £5/metre. I doubt I will find a difference when I examine the impedance.

There is an awful lot of scientism talked about cables. With the money I saved NOT buying hyped rubbish I have a Wayne Kerr LCR meter, an HP signal analyser, another HP spectrum analyser, Tektronix scope and a Rohde and Schwarz noise generator (and more, but not relevant to this problem). With this kit, and my audio gear, I can see and hear that there is no reason to buy expensive speaker cable. And yes, I checked phase responses.

There is a lot of money to be made and I urge audio enthusiasts to challenge the vendors to defend their claims; scientifically.

I am a heretic. However, I am a qualified heretic. I have been a member of the Institute of Acoustics for years, have a doctorate in counter deception and cognitive bias, and been a musician for twenty years. I also have an honours degree in physics. There are others who are deeper specialists than I (and I have enormous respect for deep specialists), but remember, the shops and manufacturers want your MONEY. And those that have been duped are keen to deny their gullibility to you and, more importantly, to themselves.

Just my ha'penny's worth.

J

 

[Tony_R]

Steeloyster:
Folks,

I reckon Darren has the right idea - a proper double blind experiment.

In my own blind tests, I have been able to easily discern the difference between two different cables.

It would also appear that many of these audible differences are immeasurable, even with specialist test equipment for whatever reason!

This is why I referred to the mystery of cables as something of a 'black art'.

I still don't buy into the so called specialist mains cables though...

This all reminds me of when I used to assist a friend of mine who raced cars. He could easily detect a loss of say, 5 BHP, but give him an extra 5 BHP and he didn't really notice it, apart from perhaps thinking that the car was going well.

So I wonder if our ears don't respond in the same way - in that we don't hear any improvement, but returning to the original (alledgedly inferior) cable, we immediately notice a deterioration in sound quality.

I'm a logical thinker - so I'm always trying to find logical answers!!!

Tony.

 

[Anonymous]

To paraphrase St Thomas Aquinas: "To those who believe, no proof is necessary, and for those who do not want to believe, no proof could ever be sufficient".

Here are two web links that discuss the technicalities of cables:

http://www.bluejeanscable.com/

http://www.audioholics.com/education/cables/the-truth-about-interconnects-and-cables/?searchterm=the%20truth%20about%20cables

I have Cyrus kit. The Blue Jeans LC-1 interconnects have almost exactly the same electrical characteristics as the recommended Cyrus interconnects. I use the belden 5000UP cable, which has at least as good electrical characteristics as the recommended Cyrus speaker cable. On this basis, I have no reason to believe that my cables sound any different to the recommended Cyrus ones. The only difference is that I have literally saved hundreds of pounds.

The cables I would be most wary of would be the hugely expensive ones, made from the same copper as mine, but with no published technical data.

 

[Anonymous]

Tony_R:Grimly Fiendish:daveh75:
Dont quote me on it, but i seem to remember one of the cable manufacturers commenting on here recently that cable directionality has nothing to do with current flow as such, but the cable screening's ability to eliminate rfi/emi.

For what it's worth, i don't buy into burning-in or directionality of cables making any difference either

It's to do with the screening on interconnects and some concocted speaker wires, notably the Townshend Isolda, could damage your amp if connected the wrong way. Ordinary bits of wire can be connected either way.

I fail to see how screening can affect cable directionality, as interference could originate from any angle.

Also - regarding the Townshend Isolda - again, I can't understand how / why connecting it the wrong way could damage an amp. However without examining said cable, I cannot comment.

Grimly - re your note about criticising the industry - I'm no expert hence I'm in no position to criticise.

I think it's fair to say that "this cable thing" is regarded as something of a black art in many circles.

All opinions given are those of my own, formed through tinkering with various bits of kit for many years, and also derived from my training as an electronics engineer.

Tony.

The Isolda has very high capacitance that can cause the demise of amplifiers due to parasitic oscillation caused by phase inversion. The amplifier end of the cable has a series inductor to protect the amp. Doesn't perform any better than a thick multistrand but costs a whole lot more.

Some interconnects have weird (and pointless) shielding that should only be connected at one end.

 

[Anonymous]

There really is no audible difference to cables unless they are so unsuitable as to be upsetting whatever they are connected too. In a properly conducted test where you could switch between different ones instantaneously using an Infra Red handset, you'd quickly realise that and then see how easily our ears can be mistaken.

In the words of the great Tim Farney; We can measure more than we can hear, but what we can't measure is what the brain does with what the ear sends it.

IMO the process of "running in" is a hi fi con, it's simply giving you a period of time to adjust to something that may not be that great.

I've published this link before but it's worth seeing it again. It shows how our ears learn to de-code what they hear. They hear what they want to hear and ignore what they don't like. The trouble is that if it's hard work because we have a rotten system, we'll only be able to do it for so long before it becomes fatiguing to put up with.

http://www.mrc-cbu.cam.ac.uk/~mattd/sine-wave-speech/

Ashley

 

[Anonymous]

Ashley James:The trouble is that if it's hard work because we have a rotten system, we'll only be able to do it for so long before it becomes fatiguing to put up with.

I was kind of with you up until this point. Do you mean our ears effectively 'get bored' of actively parsing everything passed through them? So if I had a rotten system I would be able to magically transcode it into a decent sounding one for a certain amount of time before I get bored of doing this conversion?