Dedicated electrical supply

[toyota man]

Hi all I am having a new kitchen fitted soon and I decided to save some money by installing a new ring main just for the kitchen so when I had the floor up I installed a dedicated radial circuit 16amp supplying a double socket for my amp and cd player I didn't know if this was going to make any difference well I can say without any doubt that it makes a big difference the sound is more 3D and is much clearer as if some one has taken a screen away from in front of the speakers its much better a low volumes I have been swapping between my new circuit and the original ring main and the difference is night and day and she who must be obeyed even commented on it thinking I had been out and bought something without telling her this was an inexpensive upgrade total cost not including my time which to me was free as I enjoyed doing it £40 ish as you can tell I am delighted with the end result While I was installing these electrical circuits I also ran ethernet cables for my tv and av units as Ive upgraded my internet to upto 60Mb

 

[SiUK]

This should be interesting!

Good idea btw. I was going to do something similar when I had my floor up but didn't get around to it. Still on the cards though.

 

[toyota man]

This should be interesting!

Good idea btw. I was going to do something similar when I had my floor up but didn't get around to it. Still on the cards though.

I must say I nearley didn't bother I am so glad I did now

 

[letsavit2]

Now go buy some some expensive power leads to add to the end of that MK wire you just put in!

all banter aside this would be the only power supply mod I would ever consider, a radial circuit straight to a dedicated spur. Although you may well have a problem with your ring main, old wires, loose connections etc hence why you have noticed such a difference. Now you have me thinking as this is something that can be tested easy, ie just run the cable to a spur and back box above the floor before lifting any carpet, floor boards etc. Even cheaper and easier for some to try is to turn off every other appliance on that ring and see if that makes a difference.

A radial circuit = A new power cable straight from main board to its own socket for the non engineers among us.

 

[CnoEvil]

Good job.

IMO. It's probably the single most cost effective electrical upgrade that you can do.

 

[andyjm]

While there is nothing wrong with running a separate radial link to the distribution board, it is not as if the distribution boad is a magically clean source of power if you have rf problems in the house. Most likely to be clicks and pops when then fridge compressor starts, or the boiler igniter circuit cuts in, this noise will feedback to the distribution board bus bars and then propagate through all of the house wiring - separate spur or not. Running a separate spur increases the "distance" from the noise source to your amp ( and hence attenuation), it does not remove it.

There are regulations which define the amount of EMI a device can produce. Any decent amp should be able to cope with this. If the fridge is objectionable, it is probably because the suppression cap has blown up or fallen off.

The 'veil has lifted' effect noted by the OP is unlikely to be due to rf effects, and equally unlikely to be fixed by installing a spur except in exceptional circumstances.

Edit: the easy way for the OP to tell if there is any real improvement is to try his amp at high volume with the source switched off on his new spur and compare it to his original socket. If there is a noticeable increase in background noise on the original circuit, then his mod has done some good. Otherwise, if it is the same, the mod has made no difference.

 

[DocG]

Can I pop in?

In our new house, every socket will have its own radial link to the distribution board. I thought that would be excellent for the hifi in particular, but I read somewhere that the ground (is that the correct term in English?) should be common for the whole hifi chain, in order to prevent ground loops.

Can anyone comment (in a clear but friendly way -- I know less than nothing on this subject :shifty: )? Should I use separate wall sockets for every device, or get a distribution block?

 

[davedotco]

Can I pop in?

In our new house, every socket will have its own radial link to the distribution board. I thought that would be excellent for the hifi in particular, but I read somewhere that the ground (is that the correct term in English?) should be common for the whole hifi chain, in order to prevent ground loops.

Can anyone comment (in a clear but friendly way -- I know less than nothing on this subject :shifty: )? Should I use separate wall sockets for every device, or get a distribution block?

No need to worry Doc, just get a couple of these.

One for analogue, one digital, job done.

 

[DocG]

Can I pop in?

In our new house, every socket will have its own radial link to the distribution board. I thought that would be excellent for the hifi in particular, but I read somewhere that the ground (is that the correct term in English?) should be common for the whole hifi chain, in order to prevent ground loops.

Can anyone comment (in a clear but friendly way -- I know less than nothing on this subject :shifty: )? Should I use separate wall sockets for every device, or get a distribution block?

No need to worry Doc, just get a couple of these.

One for analogue, one digital, job done.

OK, Dave! Excellent! :huh:

I know that a picture says more than a thousand words 'n all. But... what the hell is it? Is it from out of space? Does it come from the distant future? Where do I put them? Who sells this? At what price? What does it do? :-~

 

[floyd droid]

I know that a picture says more than a thousand words 'n all. But... what the hell is it?

A mahoosive hole in your wallet , thats what that is. You little tinker DaveD. Mind you Doc, Dave went for the cheaper option.

 

[davedotco]

I know that a picture says more than a thousand words 'n all. But... what the hell is it?

A mahoosive hole in your wallet , thats what that is. You little tinker DaveD. Mind you Doc, Dave went for the cheaper option.

I did?..... :?

 

[floyd droid]

Aye , you could have lobbed in a couple of Isotek Genesis. Either instead of or ( not sure if you can do this ) piggy backed them with your suggestion.

 

[RobinKidderminster]

Nice Xbox? Pointless post tho? Zzzzzz.

 

[davedotco]

I know that a picture says more than a thousand words 'n all. But... what the hell is it?

A mahoosive hole in your wallet , thats what that is. You little tinker DaveD. Mind you Doc, Dave went for the cheaper option.

It is an Isotec Super Titan. A 'high performance' mains filter and 'conditioner' with the capapility of supplying peak power surges in excess of 30,000 watts.

No half decent system should be without one, or two if, as you really should, you want to keep your digital and analogue components separate. About £5k a pop.

What I really wanted to suggest was this......

The PS Audio Power Plant Premier. A full on mains regenerator, actually cheaper than the Isotec devices above, but hard to find outside the USA.

 

[SiUK]

it is an Isotek mains generator.. I believe about £12/13K a pop.

 

[davedotco]

siuk,

Actually it is 'only' a mains conditioner, a filter if you like. The full 'regenerator' is the PS Audio device pictured in a later thread.

Robin,

For your information I have actually used a much less expensive (<£1k) Isotec product and it worked extemely well.

It removed a significant layer of noise and 'grain' from a relatively inexpensive (budget hi-end) system I had just setup.

 

[SiUK]

siuk,

Actually it is 'only' a mains conditioner, a filter if you like. The full 'regenerator' is the PS Audio device pictured in a later thread

Thanks, I sit corrected

You'd have to have more money than sense to get that IMO. But that's me. I can think of loadsa things to spend that kind of cash on....how about a a holiday in the sun, a better all-in-one, a load more cds,, and a good selection of single malts to enjoy whilst listening to the new cds on the new all-in-one after getting back from holiday. I might even have change from that

 

[RobinKidderminster]

I guess it much depends on your mains supply. I too use a filter less than £1k. About £50 from memory. A Pure AV. PF50. Does it improve things? No idea. Will it protect agai st spikes? Hopefully. I do love the look of your Xbox thingey tho dave.

 

[davedotco]

siuk,

Actually it is 'only' a mains conditioner, a filter if you like. The full 'regenerator' is the PS Audio device pictured in a later thread

Thanks, I sit corrected

You'd have to have more money than sense to get that IMO. But that's me. I can think of loadsa things to spend that kind of cash on....how about a a holiday in the sun, a better all-in-one, a load more cds,, and a good selection of single malts to enjoy whilst listening to the new cds on the new all-in-one after getting back from holiday. I might even have change from that

Apparantly these things sell in reasonable numbers but they are several 'steps to far' as far as I am concerned.

However, if I could get my hands on a PS Audio regeneration system at sensible money I would buy one like a shot.

Why? I shall tell you.

The Power Plant takes your incoming mains and rectfies and smooths it to DC. It then uses these DC rails to amplify the output of a low distortion oscilator running at 50 or 60 Hz. Just like a power amplifier you simply turn it up until you get the desired voltage, in my case 230 volts.

This would be great for me, my supply voltage is pretty low, around 212-215 volts typically so getting a nice clean 230 volts would be great.

 

[DocG]

Thanks for the input, guys. But let me rephrase my question: does one induce ground loops by using a separate radial circuit for the CDP, the amp, the settop box, the sat receiver etc? Is it better to use a common earth connection for all of them? Or is it of no importance whatsoever?

I might consider a mains regenerator (or balanced mains supply) should the mains appear to be very poor quality... but it is -- how shall I put this? -- not a priority at the moment.

 

[davedotco]

I guess it much depends on your mains supply. I too use a filter less than £1k. About £50 from memory. A Pure AV. PF50. Does it improve things? No idea. Will it protect agai st spikes? Hopefully. I do love the look of your Xbox thingey tho dave.

Very much so Robin, the only occasion that I have heard a mains conditioner work in an obvious and demontrable manner was the time aluded to in my post above.

I set up a very nice little system and it sounded poor, this was exactly the same system as I had been taking all over the place playing to dealers and reviewers and had a sound quality that I knew intimately.

On this occasion it sounded flat, hazy, grainy, whatever and was a long way from the sysyem I knew so well. After an hour or two trying everything, different amps, player etc I was desperate.

I spoke to a friend at Isotec and he loaned me a mid price conditioner (£600-700) with separate circuits for a couple of analogue devices and a couple of digital devices (I only needed one of each) and a pair of £50 mains leads.

Problem solved, in an instant. The sound of the system was back to it's normal delightful self, to confirm what I was hearing I went back and removed the power conditioner and the SQ just collapsed, it was really very obvious.

Why was it so effective? Easy, I was on the 3rd floor of the Penta Hotel during one of the last shows at that venue and with several dozen rooms all crammed with hi-fi gear of all types the quantity of rubbish being transmitted back into the mains was huge. The Isotec simply reduced the carp getting to the system to manageable proportions and all was well.

Never heard any of these devices do anything even remotely comparable ever again.

 

[Covenanter]

The Isotec simply reduced the carp getting to the system to manageable proportions and all was well.

I'm very suspicious about this. Seems a fishy business to me.

Chris

 

[davedotco]

Thanks for the input, guys. But let me rephrase my question: does one induce ground loops by using a separate radial circuit for the CDP, the amp, the settop box, the sat receiver etc? Is it better to use a common earth connection for all of them? Or is it of no importance whatsoever?

I might consider a mains regenerator (or balanced mains supply) should the mains appear to be very poor quality... but it is -- how shall I put this? -- not a priority at the moment.

Earthing can be a complex issue but does not need to be, as my engineer once said to me (in a slightly different context) "you have to be absolutely sure where your volts a coming from". Applies to your earth too.

If you are going to the trouble of installing a separate spur (radial main) from your fusebox then the first thing to make sure of is that everything that is connected to your hi-fi should be powered by that spur, and I mean everything, satelite box, TV, even your wi-fi rounter if you use it for streaming etc.

That is usually all you need to do unless you have a poor main earth in your house, in which case you take the earth from the spur and run it to the best earth you can find, something like a water pipe at ground or basement level. If there is nothing obvious, get some advice.

 

[andyjm]

Thanks for the input, guys. But let me rephrase my question: does one induce ground loops by using a separate radial circuit for the CDP, the amp, the settop box, the sat receiver etc? Is it better to use a common earth connection for all of them? Or is it of no importance whatsoever?

I might consider a mains regenerator (or balanced mains supply) should the mains appear to be very poor quality... but it is -- how shall I put this? -- not a priority at the moment.

Doc,

In an unbalanced system, the audio signal is referenced to ground. To make sure every device is using the same ground, it is usual to have ground carried from device to device using the screen on screened interconnects. If an 'earth loop' exists (more than one ground connection between two devices, taking a different route, then it is possible for current to flow along the loop, causing a noise voltage to develop between the two grounds. This noise voltage is mistaken for a signal by the amp, and amplified. In a domestic situation, induced mains is the most likely culprit and a ground loop is often characterised by mains hum.

In an ideal world, 'star point earthing' is used. A single point from which all signals are refenced and all earths come from. This is approximated in a modern system where the amp / AVR is earthed, and (usually) the other components are not earthed and rely on the amp / AVR as the star point.

As only the amp / AVR is usually earthed, your radial solution won't make any difference, but I would personally rather have all of the devices connected to the same supply, particularly as you have satellite / phone line connections which can generate high fault voltages in the case of lightning strikes or similar.

Are you sure every socket is being led back to the distribution board by a separate cable? That's a large amount of wire for no reason?

 

[andyjm]

That is usually all you need to do unless you have a poor main earth in your house, in which case you take the earth from the spur and run it to the best earth you can find, something like a water pipe at ground or basement level. If there is nothing obvious, get some advice.

Do not mess around with the earthing in your house, even if it is 'obvious'. Proper earthing schemes can be counter-intuitive as it depends on how the supply is configured by the utility, and water pipes and such like do not make good earths (the pipe is probably plastic from your stopcock onward).

I deliberately do not offer mains wiring advice on this forum, but in this case the advice is simple. Don't mess with the earth, get a properly qualified electrician in.