Crazy talk about CD v Rips....

[Thompsonuxb]

Just been catching up....

Anyhoo, came across some crazy talk, crazy folk taking about a CD rip to file sounding better than the original CD.

How does that work?

Unless the streamer is doing something to the data how can a rip sound better than the original cd?

 

[davedotco]

Just been catching up....

Anyhoo, came across some crazy talk, crazy folk taking about a CD rip to file sounding better than the original CD. How does that work? Unless the streamer is doing something to the data how can a rip sound better than the original cd?

But not catching up enough it would seem.

Try researching, real time scanning v multiple scans, error correction circuits and 'check sum' verification.

 

[Crocodile]

The theory is that a CDP has to correct errors in real time. Excessive errors could result in data loss.

During the ripping process error correction can take as long as necessary, so the rip could end up recovering data that a CDP can't.

 

[Thompsonuxb]

Just been catching up....

Anyhoo, came across some crazy talk, crazy folk taking about a CD rip to file sounding better than the original CD. How does that work? Unless the streamer is doing something to the data how can a rip sound better than the original cd?

But not catching up enough it would seem.

Try researching, real time scanning v multiple scans, error correction circuits and 'check sum' verification.

What??? if data is data, sample a bit 10x it won't improve it - unless your device is 'colouring ' the sound how is it going to improve it over the original.

Anolog to digital, yes there is an argument as hiss and bloom and many of the problems associated with anolog can be eleminated but bit to bit, 1 to 1 how can you improve it?

 

[CnoEvil]

Here is what Linn have to say about it: http://docs.linn.co.uk/wiki/index.php/Why_Linn_DS_is_the_best_way_to_play_CDs

 

[Thompsonuxb]

The theory is that a CDP has to correct errors in real time. Excessive errors could result in data loss.

During the ripping process error correction can take as long as necessary, so the rip could end up recovering data that a CDP can't.

Errrr, no. ...... ripping a scratched cd to your pc it will rip the errors/scratches if its 1 to 1, bit for bit.

which device can rip scratched cds perfectly and how much is it. I have a John Legend cd with a hugh scratch on it caused by my daughter dropping a cup on it when she was a toddler...and I really liked that cd you know.

 

[Thompsonuxb]

Here is what Linn have to say about it: http://docs.linn.co.uk/wiki/index.php/Why_Linn_DS_is_the_best_way_to_play_CDs

prrrft....they're selling us snake oil.

you can only rip the data available on a disk. Unless you have a device stuffing bits in were its corrupted, then thats poppicok.

what these people are suggesting is its not 1 for 1 bit but 1 for 1.8795 bits....thats rubbish.

 

[davedotco]

Here is what Linn have to say about it: http://docs.linn.co.uk/wiki/index.php/Why_Linn_DS_is_the_best_way_to_play_CDs

Unusually clear and concise, for Linn.....!

The only addition I would make to the "Reading the data" section is that the error correction may not be perfect in some cases so the 'extrapolation of the good data' may cause errors which might be audible.

I have heard some cheap plyers that have fearsome error correction so they will hardly ever skip or refuse to play a disc but the sound was pretty poor, noticeably harsh or gritty.

 

[Al ears]

As far as I was aware data is stored on the CD as a series of 'pits' . These are read by the laser mechanism in either a CD player or in a CD-ROM drawer of a computer.

How exactly a 'read head' decides what is 'bad' data that shouldn't be there is something else altogether but if I had to trust something to read the data off an audio CD I know it wouldn't be attached to a computer.

 

[davedotco]

Here is what Linn have to say about it: http://docs.linn.co.uk/wiki/index.php/Why_Linn_DS_is_the_best_way_to_play_CDs

prrrft....they're selling us snake oil.

you can only rip the data available on a disk. Unless you have a device stuffing bits in were its corrupted, then thats poppicok.

what these people are suggesting is its not 1 for 1 bit but 1 for 1.8795 bits....thats rubbish.

On real time, ie normal cd transports, that is exactly what you do have, it's called error correction.

 

[Thompsonuxb]

As far as I was aware data is stored on the CD as a series of 'pits' . These are read by the laser mechanism in either a CD player or in a CD-ROM drawer of a computer.

How exactly a 'read head' decides what is 'bad' data that shouldn't be there is something else altogether but if I had to trust something to read the data off an audio CD I know it wouldn't be attached to a computer.

Exactly... how is a Ripping device going to differenciate between good or bad data - audio or otherwise.

 

[CnoEvil]

Here is what Linn have to say about it: http://docs.linn.co.uk/wiki/index.php/Why_Linn_DS_is_the_best_way_to_play_CDs

prrrft....they're selling us snake oil.

you can only rip the data available on a disk. Unless you have a device stuffing bits in were its corrupted, then thats poppicok.

what these people are suggesting is its not 1 for 1 bit but 1 for 1.8795 bits....thats rubbish.

I heard the Linn Majik CDP vs Linn Majik DS......the difference was so clear cut, that it is really no surprise that they stopped producing CDPs.

 

[Thompsonuxb]

Here is what Linn have to say about it: http://docs.linn.co.uk/wiki/index.php/Why_Linn_DS_is_the_best_way_to_play_CDs

prrrft....they're selling us snake oil.

you can only rip the data available on a disk. Unless you have a device stuffing bits in were its corrupted, then thats poppicok.

what these people are suggesting is its not 1 for 1 bit but 1 for 1.8795 bits....thats rubbish.

I heard the Linn Majik CDP vs Linn Majik DS......the difference was so clear cut, that it is really no surprise that they stopped producing CDPs.

Are you sure you heard a difference?

 

[Overdose]

How exactly a 'read head' decides what is 'bad' data that shouldn't be there is something else altogether but if I had to trust something to read the data off an audio CD I know it wouldn't be attached to a computer.

Yeah, those computer drives, they're rubbish at data reading and transfer they are. I'd never have one in my computer, just imagine what could happen if the data was all messed up and stuff.

 

[Al ears]

I am none the wiser.

Data is transferred to CD as a medium much like pressing a groove in vinyl.

Can anyone explain what exactly is an 'error' and how is it recognised as one?

dit dit dit / dah dah dah / dit dit dit

 

[iQ Speakers]

This only applies when you rip a CD. An algorithm checks the data read and then written is correct. If not it will try again. All it does is make sure no errors creep in. It can not perform miracles and if the data is damaged ie not there because of a bad scratch it will give up. In the case of a data CD it will display an error message. A normal player plays data in real time no buffering in order for data correction hence skipping.

 

[Thompsonuxb]

An algorithm checks the data read and then written is correct. If not it will try again. All it does is make sure no errors creep in. It can not perform miracles and if the data is damaged ie not there because of a bad scratch it will give up. In the case of a data CD it will display an error message.

Exactly......

 

[Overdose]

I am none the wiser.

Yet you maintain a computer optical drive to be inferior to a CD player?

 

[CnoEvil]

Are you sure you heard a difference?

Are you sure I didn't?

Now stop stirring the pot, have a nice cup of Horlicks, and go to bed. You may feel less quarrelsome in the morning.

 

[davedotco]

As far as I was aware data is stored on the CD as a series of 'pits' . These are read by the laser mechanism in either a CD player or in a CD-ROM drawer of a computer.

How exactly a 'read head' decides what is 'bad' data that shouldn't be there is something else altogether but if I had to trust something to read the data off an audio CD I know it wouldn't be attached to a computer.

Right.......

So.

A cd player that has to read all the data in one pass, irrespective of damage, misalignment, dust or other factors, then apply error correction circuitry to interpolate (informed guesswork) for missing data is, better than a computer drive that makes multiple passes, collects all the data and then performs a 'checksum' calculation to veryfy that the data is 100% accurate.

Just because the optical drive is in a cd player rather than a computer.

Got it...!

 

[Thompsonuxb]

Are you sure you heard a difference?

Are you sure I didn't?

Now stop stirring the pot, have a nice cup of Horlicks, and go to bed. You may feel less quarrelsome in the morning.

lol..... goodnight.

 

[Al ears]

I am none the wiser.

Yet you maintain a computer optical drive to be inferior to a CD player?

I would say a good Phillips CD Pro mechanism is better than your average Taiwanese DVD-RW drive yes.

 

[steve_1979]

I heard the Linn Majik CDP vs Linn Majik DS......the difference was so clear cut, that it is really no surprise that they stopped producing CDPs.

ABXed? oke:

(I'm just kidding guys. Ignore this comment and carry on as you were )

 

[Al ears]

I heard the Linn Majik CDP vs Linn Majik DS......the difference was so clear cut, that it is really no surprise that they stopped producing CDPs.

ABXed? oke:

(I'm just kidding guys. Ignore this comment and carry on as you were )

Do we have to?

 

[davedotco]

This only applies when you rip a CD. An algorithm checks the data read and then written is correct. If not it will try again. All it does is make sure no errors creep in. It can not perform miracles and if the data is damaged ie not there because of a bad scratch it will give up. In the case of a data CD it will display an error message. A normal player plays data in real time no buffering in order for data correction hence skipping.

Data on a cd is recorded in a series of 'packets', the data in each packet contains redundancies, ie it has more data than is actually needed to reconstruct the signal with perfect accuracy. You can mis read some data and still get a perfect output, but real time players can miss a lot of data, more than can be handled by the redundancies, hence the need for error correction.

A computer drive will go back time and time again (if needed) over the same section until it gets enough data to be 100% accurate, error correction is not required.