chicken and egg/amp and speakers

[sthomas048]

Hello all,

So the question is what comes first ?

The speakers or the amp ? As everyone probably knows, im upgrading my system ! My problem is an old amp that is not doing my lovely new cd player any favours and speakers that are way to boomy and bass heavy (it swallows up any niceties in the mid and treble too) for my small listening room.

So do i buy new speakers first, see how the new speakers mingle with the cd player, then on hearing the sound of how the two mix then proceed forward to a new amp ? It seems a simple thing, but im easily confused !

Thanks.

 

[idc]

Hi Stephen. In your case and generally speaking the amp comes first. From what I have read, my own experience and chats with dealers the amp is the heart of the system and you should work out from there. This may however be fashion, as in the past the source was all and the speaker was all. But looking at your kit list, I would start with the amp. I had a Rega Mira at the heart of my old setup and I would recommend the Mira 3 as an amp that will work well with your CDP and speakers.

 

[Anonymous]

Speakers, then amp. Listen to the speakers with a few amps if possible. As I mentioned before, spend as a minimum a third more on the speakers than the amp.

 

[idc]

Tarquinh, you are behind the times, it is the amp that comes first now

 

[sthomas048]

Aaargghh ! Confused.com !

 

[Anonymous]

Why? I've found it hard to evaluate amps without listening to them through speakers, but yes, you're probably right. I've also noticed that there seems to be a trend to match expensive amps with budget speakers, which makes no sense.

Anyway, got to stagger off with my Zimmer frame now for a bit.

 

[idc]

One of the reasons why I would say amp first is because of putting my £120 B&Ws on the end of £15,000 worth of Naim at a dealers for a bit of fun. We were staggered at how good they sounded and how well they coped, even going very loud. Those speakers sounded great on the end of my Rega Mira which was £400 or so. My present amp is by far the most expensive part of my setup. I agree it may just be the present trend, but I also think that the OPs weakest link is the Rotel amp.

 

[jaxwired]

I don't think there is a "rule" that works all the time regarding which to buy first. If I were you, I would buy the amp first because you can bring an amp with you to demo speakers and lugging speakers to a demo is harder (especially floorstanders LOL).

I would point out that, in my opinion, there is a budget sweet spot for electronics and speakers where spending more results in only minor improvement for major money. For electronics I would estimate this mark to be around £1000. For standmount speakers I would say the sweetspot is around £750 and for floorstander I would say it's £1500.

From my hard won experience, the great sound you want is going to be a product of system synergy and not any one outstanding component. Component matching is the rosetta stone of great hi-fi.

 

[Anonymous]

idc:One of the reasons why I would say amp first is because of putting my £120 B&Ws on the end of £15,000 worth of Naim at a dealers for a bit of fun. We were staggered at how good they sounded and how well they coped, even going very loud. Those speakers sounded great on the end of my Rega Mira which was £400 or so. My present amp is by far the most expensive part of my setup. I agree it may just be the present trend, but I also think that the OPs weakest link is the Rotel amp.

Just got back from my trip to the record player - one likes to keep in trim, you know.

Yes, but conversely I heard my SFs on the end of some expensive Unison Research gear, and the sound was, well, the best word I can find is ‚poustouflant.

Yes, the amp, though not a bad one by any means, could do with an upgrade, but there's no point changing that without budgeting for new speakers, otherwise the speakers become the weak link if they're not already. At least, with new speakers, the sound will be markedly better.

Expensive business, this HiFi malarkey.

 

[Anonymous]

I would suggest that you home demo some speakers first. Your current amp is still good and your problem sounds to be an integration problem between your room and speakers. I found in my listening room that most of the speakers I tried were too bass heavy even though they sounded great at the dealers. once you find a pair that work in your room then upgrade the amp.

 

[sthomas048]

Yes, brew - you may have the best plan. My problem is with my speakers after all. I have a shortlist (not another one i hear you all say !) of speakers im keen on -

Heco Celan 300
Cabasse Antigua
Monitor Audio RS1 or RS5s

Out of interest brew, do you mind me asking which speakers do you now use in your listening room ? Oh i should have mentioned in my original message that i dont drive so for me its very tricky demo-ing stuff, ie - amp/speakers tests.

 

[fatboyslimfast]

I would say that it depends on the improvements you are looking for.

If it's tonal - i.e. more bass, better midrange, clearer treble, then I would say speakers first.

If you are happy with the above, and are looking for better control, more detail, more punch, then it would have to be amp first.

Obv, home demoing is best, but if not try to get to at least one dealer to have a listen - your wallet will thank you!

I love my RS6s, by the way.

 

[idc]

Tarquinh:

...Yes, but conversely I heard my SFs on the end of some expensive Unison Research gear, and the sound was, well, the best word I can find is ‚poustouflant.

Yes, the amp, though not a bad one by any means, could do with an upgrade, but there's no point changing that without budgeting for new speakers, otherwise the speakers become the weak link if they're not already. At least, with new speakers, the sound will be markedly better.

So both of us have tried cheaper speakers on the end of expensive setups and found the sound to be ‚poustouflant, tres bon! So more evidence to say that speakers can usually perform way above their price bracket and the amp is the heart.

I agree with the post to try the basics like room setup first. There may have been a few changes of speaker going on when all that was needed was to move the original ones about a bit.

 

[Anonymous]

Wouldn't really class the SFs as inexpensive speakers, though I got them cheaply, so I'm afraid, yet again, we disagree!

My point was more that they're fronting a 200 euro NAD at the moment, which is roughly a tenth of the price, yet still sound very good. When matched with amps at roughly the same price, they did indeed sound very much better. However, the Epos speakers I had sounded OK with the NAD, but not really any better when tried with some more expensive amplifiers. Which is why I think spend as much as possible on speakers first, then let the rest happen.

 

[Anonymous]

I agree with a previous post saying the amp is the heart of a system, especially now when the source can be a CDP or lossless files being streamed and both are almost as good as each other. So if you assume the quality of the source is taken care of, then you need to feed the speakers with the best you can achieve and that is by having a decent amp or amps. There aren't that many variables in terms of what sound an amp produces, it doesn't really vary BUT it is entirely different with speakers - there are many variables depending on placement, room acoustics, cables, spiked or not spiked, on a firm stand or not, metal tweeter or cloth ones etc etc. I would therefore say that before upgrading anything, move the speakers about like a previous poster suggetsed, change a few variables and you may find that you are happy with the result. If you have gone through the variables and still unable to find the sound you like, then you have identified the problem as being with your speakers as opposed to the amp, therefore change the speakers first. Hope this makes sense.

 

[Anonymous]

Try some of both within budget and buy what you fancy on the day.

 

[Anonymous]

sthomas048, I use Neat motive 3 with Naim 122X and 150X pre/power sounds fantastic. I did have Neat Motive 2's but found the bass too much in my room, I was lucky that my dealer was happy to take them back and swap for the Motive 3's. The Motive 3's are very easy on room placement but still produce plenty of punchy bass.

 

[Craig M.]

i really recommend atc speakers, i think they will totally cure your boomy bass and are not at all fussy about positioning, as well as having a totally natural and revealing midrange that will stand future upgrades.

 

[sthomas048]

idc:
I agree with the post to try the basics like room setup first. There may have been a few changes of speaker going on when all that was needed was to move the original ones about a bit.

I have tried to the two available places for my setup in my room (yes it is that small !) and neither seem to improve the sound at all. I have tried the speakers near wall, away from wall and toed in to different degrees. So i believe now its a problem rooted with the speakers.

 

[sthomas048]

Craig M.:i really recommend atc speakers, i think they will totally cure your boomy bass and are not at all fussy about positioning, as well as having a totally natural and revealing midrange that will stand future upgrades.

Another brand i hadnt considered before. The Neutron 5s definately look interesting and have been well reviewed, but i read they need a decent powered amp of say 100w plus ?

 

[SteveR750]

Apologoies if this has been already suggested or is completely random only I haven't read through the entire therad for which there really is no excuse.. but what about listening and deciding what amp and speaker sombination you really like, and buy them one at a time, whther it works with your existing stuff temprarily wont matter, unless of course you only plan in changing one component in your system, I which case ignore this post, and I will go back to trawling thru fleabay for cheap CD's....

 

[Craig M.]

sthomas048:
Craig M.:i really recommend atc speakers, i think they will totally cure your boomy bass and are not at all fussy about positioning, as well as having a totally natural and revealing midrange that will stand future upgrades.

Another brand i hadnt considered before. The Neutron 5s definately look interesting and have been well reviewed, but i read they need a decent powered amp of say 100w plus ?

i think you mean avi? i wouldn't put money in ashleys pocket for anything. unless he's great on guitar and was busking.

 

[sthomas048]

Ha ! Sorry i mis-read. ATC, yes ive checked out the SCM7. Nice !

Boy does this forum expand your hi-fi horizons ! So many brands and so little time.