Cable burn-in sceptic convinced!

[Dan Turner]

First of all I'm sorry - we all know how a thread like this will end. But I wanted to share some first hand experience and hopefully we'll get a page or 2 of useful debate before it descends into anarchy.

Anyway I remember reading a previous thread about cable burn-in, and it was divided into the usual 2 camps - those who had heard it for themselves and were convinced, and those who thought it was a ludicrous concept. Personally I was sceptical but as I hadn't had the chance to test brand new and 'burnt-in' versions of the same cable back-to-back I thought it best not to get involved.

Now I have - I took some Atlas Hyper 2 (twins runs bi-amping Arcam A32/P35 and PMC TB2+) on home demo, and was suitably impressed with the improvement over the Van Damme I was using before - much clearer & crisper in the treble and tighter in the bass - to take the plunge.

So I took the demo set back to the shop, picked up my new ones, took them home, plugged them in and fired things up. All I can say is that I am now utterly convinced that cable burn-in really does exist and that the difference between burnt-in and un-burnt-in cables is not a small one. By comparison with the burnt-in demo pair these new ones sound brighter to point of being brittle, the bass is significantly lacking in weight and the whole sonic picture sounds less three dimensional and a litttle bit 'muddled'. All connections have been checked and it's all hooked up correctly by the way.

I was really surprised at the extent of the difference, the Atlas Hyper 2.0 (when burnt-in!) is really rather good and I'm really hoping that the wonderful sound that was coming out of my system with the demo cables in situ returns after a few hours!

 

[Anonymous]

also try puting a factor 15 creme on them to stop
them getting burnt it also helps to smooth the sound out

 

[seasiders rock]

you cant do a cable burn in unless it,s during a waning harvest moon, have six naked vestal virgins and the correct size candles.....

 

[Anonymous]

seasiders rock:

you cant do a cable burn in unless it,s during a waning harvest moon, have six naked vestal virgins and the correct size candles.....

Six virgins will be impossible to find................as for the correct size candles

 

[chebby]

Dan Turner:.....and hopefully we'll get a page or 2 of useful debate before it descends into anarchy.

A page or two? Such optimism!

My credulity ran out the other day when I was getting some Naim NAC-A5 cables made up/terminated by my dealer.

I mentioned turning off the amp in order to fit the new cables and he smiled and said... "that'll be another six weeks before it sounds right again".

He also mentioned giving the cables about a week to... "sound right".

I bit my tongue. The amp/CD sounded great again after about 30 minutes and the cables have been in use for about 50 hours since I bought them and sound exactly the same. (ie pretty darned good.)

It made sense that a specific length of thicker, better Naim cable would sound better (Naim 'voice' all their new equipment using it) but burn-in is going a bit too far.

I am sure that if a metallurgist analysed copper from the cable before and after a prolongued period of use there would be no differences detectable on an atomic or crystalline level. (Any metallurgists reading this please jump in to confirm or refute.)

The directional arrows on the cable amused me too. I have no choice but to use them 'correctly aligned' because the dealer soldered my Naim amplifier connectors on one end and banana plugs on the speaker ends.

Anyhow - whether I believe all this or not - they sound fine and the amp did not lose any "magic'' after being switched off for two hours.

I seriously wonder if Naim dealers actually lose some sales with all this nonsense talk of burning-in and running-in, especially if the customer has a technical or scientific education/occupation. Some otherwise enthusiastic customers must get put off by it.

 

[Dan Turner]

I totally did not expect it, and yesterday I might have made very similar comments.

My last cable upgrade was from QED silver anniversary bi-wire to some Van Damme 6mm OFC stuff - low cost upgrade and took a chance on it as the VD had been recommended and I wasn't totally happy with the QED. The VD was an improvement, but I can honestly say I don't think that the sound changed at all the entire time I was using them - which was where a big part of my scepticism about burning-in came from.

This time without setting out to, I have ended up directly comparing identical cables where one set have had plenty of use and one set are brand new and that has revealed a definite difference. I totally agree that it's hard to see what characteristics could have changed in the cables, but the difference is undeniable.

Happy to consider alternative theories but given that everything else is the same the only thing I could think of was the burn-in factor. Also bizarre and controversial though it may be at least the concept of burn-in means that my system will return to the way it sounded with the demo set after a few hours, so I'm kind of hoping that it is that!

 

[SteveR750]

chebby:
Dan Turner:.....and hopefully we'll get a page or 2 of useful debate before it descends into anarchy.

A page or two? Such optimism!

My credulity ran out the other day when I was getting some Naim NAC-A5 cables made up/terminated by my dealer.

I mentioned turning off the amp in order to fit the new cables and he smiled and said... "that'll be another six weeks before it sounds right again".

He also mentioned giving the cables about a week to... "sound right".

I bit my tongue. The amp/CD sounded great again after about 30 minutes and the cables have been in use for about 50 hours since I bought them and sound exactly the same. (ie pretty darned good.)

It made sense that a specific length of thicker, better Naim cable would sound better (Naim 'voice' all their new equipment using it) but burn-in is going a bit too far.

I am sure that if a metallurgist analysed copper from the cable before and after a prolongued period of use there would be no differences detectable on an atomic or crystalline level. (Any metallurgists reading this please jump in to confirm or refute.)

The directional arrows on the cable amused me too. I have no choice but to use them 'correctly aligned' because the dealer soldered my Naim amplifier connectors on one end and banana plugs on the speaker ends.

Anyhow - whether I believe all this or not - they sound fine and the amp did not lose any "magic'' after being switched off for two hours.

I seriously wonder if Naim dealers actually lose some sales with all this nonsense talk of burning-in and running-in, especially if the customer has a technical or scientific education/occupation. Some otherwise enthusiastic customers must get put off by it.

#

As a now non practising metallurgist, I cannot think of any reason why an alternating curent should a) require any cable directionality, and b) have any effect on the microstructure unless it gets hot (as in very very hot). Having said that, it is feasible that there is a electromechanical effect of the current "flow", which then might affect things like the crystal grain boundaries such that the impedance of the cable alters over time. I'm not sure anyone (with any credibility) has studied this effect.

What I do know as I studied this myself is that the microstructure of tubular bells has a signifcant influence on their resultant chime properties. If they are produced in the as-drawn condition, they sound vastly different to drawn and annealed (to the same measured hardness). This effect is easy to measure in an anechoic chamber. It all therefore depends on whther an AC current can effect physical changes to the microstructure, and whether these changes have any influence on the transmitted signal

 

[chebby]

SteveR750:....If they are produced in the as-drawn condition, they sound vastly different to drawn and annealed (to the same measured hardness). This effect is easy to measure in an anechoic chamber.

Hmmm. Interesting. Naim themselves - actually Julian Vereker himself in 1999 - said ...

"I can't tell you why cables sound different one way round to the other, but I do know when the 'directionality' happens in manufacture. It doesn't seem to matter how the bundle (of copper) is drawn, single direction or mixed direction, but as soon as the insulation is extruded onto the bundle, the directionality is established.

"This means that one can mark the insulation and it will always be the right way round.I suspect that the hot plastic insulation anneals the copper in some way, and this affects the crystaline structure."

 

[chebby]

John Duncan alert!

I used the 'paste from word' function from your toolbar and it all gets messed up like above.

(Latest Firefox on XP Pro SP3)

 

[Anonymous]

I've burnt my cables in for about 10,000 hours. Would they be burnt in now, and, if so, how do I stop the process?

 

[Andrew Everard]

chebby:John Duncan alert!
I used the 'paste from word' function from your toolbar and it all gets messed up like above.

(Latest Firefox on XP Pro SP3)

Yes, not sure why that happens - long ago found it best to cut and paste from a plain text document if one has to cut and paste.
Anyway, have tidied up your post...

 

[chebby]

Thanks Andrew

 

[carter]

seasiders rock:

you cant do a cable burn in unless it,s during a waning harvest moon, have six naked vestal virgins and the correct size candles.....

im from croydon how am i ever gonna find one virgin let alone six.

 

[SteveR750]

chebby:
SteveR750:....If they are produced in the as-drawn condition, they sound vastly different to drawn and annealed (to the same measured hardness). This effect is easy to measure in an anechoic chamber.

Hmmm. Interesting. Naim themselves - actually Julian Vereker himself in 1999 - said ...

"I can't tell you why cables sound different one way round to the other, but I do know when the 'directionality' happens in manufacture. It doesn't seem to matter how the bundle (of copper) is drawn, single direction or mixed direction, but as soon as the insulation is extruded onto the bundle, the directionality is established.

"This means that one can mark the insulation and it will always be the right way round.I suspect that the hot plastic insulation anneals the copper in some way, and this affects the crystaline structure."

It would have to be pretty hot to do that, but this issue of directionality - the music signal is alternating current not DC therefore has no direction! So the impedance would be different in +ve part of the wave compared to the -ve part of the wave which would be completely the wrong thing to do.

 

[chebby]

I only pasted that quote from Julian Vereker because of the annealling reference (your post about tubular metal bells).

I hasten to add that I am not quoting it as fact but just for interest. (Even Julian Vereker was careful to use the word 'suspect' and he admitted they weren't sure why/how directionality happened).

As I said earlier I am highly doubtful of directionality and burning-in. I only bought Naim NAC-A5 cable because it is a 'known quantity'. Naim use it when developing their own products. Also because it's known capacitance, inductance and resistance are factored into the electrical design of their amps - if you use their recommendation of a minimum 3.5metres per channel.

It is thick high quality OFC copper and (compared to many) not terribly expensive.

To be honest I had no desire to spend time and money experimenting, so played the safe option.

 

[Anonymous]

Dan Turner:
This time without setting out to, I have ended up directly comparing identical cables where one set have had plenty of use and one set are brand new and that has revealed a definite difference. I totally agree that it's hard to see what characteristics could have changed in the cables, but the difference is undeniable.

Happy to consider alternative theories but given that everything else is the same the only thing I could think of was the burn-in factor. Also bizarre and controversial though it may be at least the concept of burn-in means that my system will return to the way it sounded with the demo set after a few hours, so I'm kind of hoping that it is that!

It is clearly down to the difference between 2 different batches of cable. Some cables are quite poor in this respect - even very expensive ones!!! - can make magazine interconnect reviews meaningless, especially where the supplier sends in the review sample. I would be interested to see a review comparing the supplied sample and one bought off the peg!

Also, I understand you did not have both cables available at the same time, to do a direct comparison? possibly your memory playing tricks as well.

Dan Turner:

my system will return to the way it sounded with the demo set after a few hours, so I'm kind of hoping that it is that!

Sorry, I think you are stuck with the way it is sounding now!!

 

[idc]

I have tried this on a number of occasions and most recently with an av/hifi that had not been touched for about 7 years. It did improve the sound, but only slightly. Clean all the contacts with brasso or similar and pul them in and out a few times.

From this I suspect that 'cable burn in' is also affected by dirty contacts. I wonder to what extent 'cable burn in' is actually down to dirty contacts. I find plugs more than cables get dirty. But they get dirty very quickly.

Dan, as a suggestion , could you ask to audition the cables again! Firstly you can then do a back to back test and secondly you could see how dirty the contacts are. You will get an indication of that by using kitchen towel without using brasso. The results of your findings would be of great benefit to the forum.

Thanks

 

[Dan Turner]

idc:

I have tried this on a number of occasions and most recently with an av/hifi that had not been touched for about 7 years. It did improve the sound, but only slightly. Clean all the contacts with brasso or similar and pul them in and out a few times.

From this I suspect that 'cable burn in' is also affected by dirty contacts. I wonder to what extent 'cable burn in' is actually down to dirty contacts. I find plugs more than cables get dirty. But they get dirty very quickly.

Dan, as a suggestion , could you ask to audition the cables again! Firstly you can then do a back to back test and secondly you could see how dirty the contacts are. You will get an indication of that by using kitchen towel without using brasso. The results of your findings would be of great benefit to the forum.

Thanks

Thanks idc, that's a useful suggestion. I think I'm going to run my system continuously for a few days and see if things improve, then if they don't I'm going to go back to the dealer and borrow the demo set again. I honestly don't think that I have dirty contacts though, i've basically switched between old speaker cables, demo ones and the ones I purchased today, all within the last week, and the old ones were only about 18 months old anyway (and the new ones had brand new bannana plugs on them).

If the sound doesn't improve I think that the dealer will be reasonable about it, they've always been good on the past.

 

[aliEnRIK]

Dan Turner:
By comparison with the burnt-in demo pair these new ones sound brighter to point of being brittle, the bass is significantly lacking in weight and the whole sonic picture sounds less three dimensional and a litttle bit 'muddled'.

Hi Dan. Thats EXACTLY what ive found with ALL my silver cables (Bought from new). They sound cr*p to start with and slowly turn into something awesome

 

[Dan Turner]

aliEnRIK:

Hi Dan. Thats EXACTLY what ive found with ALL my silver cables (Bought from new). They sound cr*p to start with and slowly turn into something awesome

You're so right, after 60 hours (on and off) of use the sound has gradually changed to sound like the demo set of cables did (i.e. pretty damn good).

I can't explain it rationally, which annoys me, but hearing is believing.

 

[idc]

Re my earlier post about burn in maybe being due to dirty contacts. We have had a new shelf fitted and moved the TV, DVD, Sky boxes about. I took the chance to clean all the plugs, some of which were very dirty, plugged it all back in again....and noticed no difference at all. But with my friends av and my hifi I have noticed a difference. Humph!

 

[aliEnRIK]

idc:
Re my earlier post about burn in maybe being due to dirty contacts. We have had a new shelf fitted and moved the TV, DVD, Sky boxes about. I took the chance to clean all the plugs, some of which were very dirty, plugged it all back in again....and noticed no difference at all. But with my friends av and my hifi I have noticed a difference. Humph!

We've been here before. But for the record its happened to EVERY new silver plated/solid silver cable ive used (And my connections are in perfect condition as I ALWAYS clean them after every change and even spray them with deoxit)

My last word on it is this ~ burn in exists

 

[Kevin Stephens]

I have my own hypothesis on "burn in", having bought some new Odyssey 2 cables with my new system a few weeks ago.

When you buy cables they come off the reel, after installing the kinks gradually "relaxed" over a few weeks. I guess that in the process shear stresses would have been relieved, and maybe small dislocations in the crystaline structure corrected themselves?

I doubt that pasing current through would have made much difference.

 

[SteveR750]

Kevin Stephens:
I have my own hypothesis on "burn in", having bought some new Odyssey 2 cables with my new system a few weeks ago.

When you buy cables they come off the reel, after installing the kinks gradually "relaxed" over a few weeks. I guess that in the process shear stresses would have been relieved, and maybe small dislocations in the crystaline structure corrected themselves?

I doubt that pasing current through would have made much difference.

Only this doesnt normally happen at room temp in copper IIRC.

 

[idc]

aliEnRIK:idc:

Re my earlier post about burn in maybe being due to dirty contacts. We have had a new shelf fitted and moved the TV, DVD, Sky boxes about. I took the chance to clean all the plugs, some of which were very dirty, plugged it all back in again....and noticed no difference at all. But with my friends av and my hifi I have noticed a difference. Humph!

We've been here before. But for the record its happened to EVERY new silver plated/solid silver cable ive used (And my connections are in perfect condition as I ALWAYS clean them after every change and even spray them with deoxit)

My last word on it is this ~ burn in exists

I'm not doubting you Rick. But like the post by Kevin Stephens I am putting forward theories as to why burn in happens. I know in the past I have theorised that burn in is due to contacts degrading. This time I have admitted to finding an example where dirty contacts do not appear to have made any difference.