Black To The Future

[matthewpiano]

After a period of not using it, I've set my Project Genie turntable up again, taken time to check set-up properly (including cartridge alignment), and had a good long listening session which has shown me all the reasons why I've always loved vinyl as a format. It makes me want to listen and listen and listen, and this is just a very elementary turntable/cartridge/phono stage combination. No form of digital music, whether CD or lossless file based, has ever managed to quite have this effect on me and I've never really been able to totally move on from vinyl. Some of these records are very old now - I was playing some of them on a PL12D in my bedroom aged 8 onwards and many of them belonged to Dad before that - and yet with an occasional clean, and a wipe with an anti-static brush before each playing, they still sound superb.

The questions over the future of CD, raised on these forums only the other day, have got me thinking about my musical future. I'm not really interested in streaming etc. and my big CD collection isn't going anywhere, but I can see myself collecting vinyl much more seriously and investigating more of both the 2nd hand market and the 'audiophile' re-pressings of today (of which I have a few already).

As CD reaches it's slow fade out into being a more niche product, how does everyone else feel about vinyl?

 

[altruistic.lemon]

Gave it up years ago, mate. Streaming plus CDs for me now. Who wants to get up every 15 minutes to turn the thing over, clean record and needle every play, put up with all the surface noise, pops and crackles then have the records stuffed when you accidentally send the tonearm skidding across the thing - usually when you've popped the second bottle of wine around midnight.

Nah, digital is much better.

 

[plastic penguin]

After a period of not using it, I've set my Project Genie turntable up again, taken time to check set-up properly (including cartridge alignment), and had a good long listening session which has shown me all the reasons why I've always loved vinyl as a format. It makes me want to listen and listen and listen, and this is just a very elementary turntable/cartridge/phono stage combination. No form of digital music, whether CD or lossless file based, has ever managed to quite have this effect on me and I've never really been able to totally move on from vinyl. Some of these records are very old now - I was playing some of them on a PL12D in my bedroom aged 8 onwards and many of them belonged to Dad before that - and yet with an occasional clean, and a wipe with an anti-static brush before each playing, they still sound superb.

The questions over the future of CD, raised on these forums only the other day, have got me thinking about my musical future. I'm not really interested in streaming etc. and my big CD collection isn't going anywhere, but I can see myself collecting vinyl much more seriously and investigating more of both the 2nd hand market and the 'audiophile' re-pressings of today (of which I have a few already).

As CD reaches it's slow fade out into being a more niche product, how does everyone else feel about vinyl?

Absolutely love vinyl. It gives you a dynamic that cds and streaming can't. For me, though, it isn't just the SQ: It has a certain drama; the size of the cover, the smell - and you can actually read the sleeve notes.

If only I had room I wouldn't entertain the thought of streaming. Together with CDs and other formats, the large plastic (whether black, coloured or pictured) frisbees makes up the synthesis we call MUSIC.

Wicked.:dance:

 

[matthewpiano]

PP I'm with you on the whole experience side of vinyl. The geek in me loves the whole thing, and cover art is so much more meaningful on the larger scale. I agree with you about the dynamic, and I'd say it works better at low volumes than CD does as well.

 

[chebby]

Record players and records were a fixture of my life from as early as I can remember until late in 2009.

Glad to be shot of them now*.

Yes, a good pressing on a properly set-up record player is very hard to beat, but it's still a bloody faff!

There is a lot of misty eyed, nostalgic, retro-twaddle spoken about records lately from a lot of people whom you'd think invented the format when you read some of it! (Obviously no-one on this forum.)

*However, I still have almost 100 LPs left over (the best of my old collection and the 'cream' in terms of favourites, condition and pressing quality.) So I reserve the right to be a complete and utter hypocrite and buy another record player one day. Maybe.

 

[plastic penguin]

Record players and records were a fixture of my life from as early as I can remember until late in 2009.

Glad to be shot of them now*.

Yes, a good pressing on a properly set-up record player is very hard to beat, but it's still a bloody faff!

There is a lot of misty eyed, nostalgic, retro-twaddle spoken about records lately from a lot of people whom you'd think invented the format when you read some of it! (Obviously no-one on this forum.)

*However, I still have almost 100 LPs left over (the best of my old collection and the 'cream' in terms of favourites, condition and pressing quality.) So I reserve the right to be a complete and utter hypocrite and buy another record player one day. Maybe.

Don't think it is a solely nostalgia trip. Sure, there's a element to the claim, but personally, it's more like looking at an album - like earlier today - then I glance to the CD rack and think of the cheap plactic material cd cases are made from: some of mine are either cracked or the hinges are so flimsey sneeze and they break. I know the flipside is that vinyl coves split, records easily mark... To me, however, an LP cover (or 7" single) just seems more substantial.

I'm mixing up the custard for your 'humble pie'...

 

[CJSF]

Gone the vinyl rout recently . . . you may have noticed . . . I have to say, if I had not found 200 LP's (the pick of a 2000 unit collection) in the loft a few months ago, I would not have even considered it. Having don the deed, finished off today . . . (see thread 'TT/PSU . . . shims. . . all fitted'). I am happy to indulge in the nostalgia of the 70's and 80's . . . I will enjoy selectively adding to the collection, takes me to boot sales/charity shops, where I can nose about . . . I like photography as well, two bird with one stone . . .

However I also have a foot in the CD camp, advanced download/streaming is beyond my comprehension? CD's are great when like now, I dont want to keep jumping up and down, currently listening to Fleetwood Mac's 'Rumors', a petrol head, waiting for 'the Chain' . . . just started :bounce:

The problem was (is?) tweaking TT's . . . as I say, I've had enough (for now)??? 'never say never' . . . I want a simple, listen to music life. Some CD's are 'pretty dam good' IMHO

CJSF

 

[amcluesent]

24bit/96Khz hi-rez lossless downloads will see off any remaining doubters that digital sounds inferior to analogue. As for the benefits of readable notes, picture sleeves, the smell of vinyl etc. that will always remain.

 

[chebby]

Don't think it is a solely nostalgia trip.

Which is why I stated that a good pressing played on a well set-up record player is hard to beat.

My nostalgia/twaddle remarks mostly pertain to people who spent a lifetime ignorant of vinyl records until the last few years and now write as if they had personally discovered the lost home-entertainment-centre of some Egyptian Pharoah!

They ascribe almost 'mystical' qualities to this ancient format which even extends to it's packaging.

We older chaps all know what LP covers were most useful for and it wasn't anything to do with being able to read sleeve notes!

...sneeze and they break.

Used for that as well i've no doubt

I'm mixing up the custard for your 'humble pie'

Why?

Did I once promise you I would never buy another record player? I don't remember it.

 

[Frank Harvey]

24bit/96Khz hi-rez lossless downloads will see off any remaining doubters that digital sounds inferior to analogue. As for the benefits of readable notes, picture sleeves, the smell of vinyl etc. that will always remain.

That's one way to look at it, but the way I see it is that 96/24 has brought digital up to vinyl's standard!

Last year when I went down to the Cyrus factory to for a pre-launch listen to their streamers, they played a few 96/24 tracks. I'd had experience of HDCD and DTS music before, but usually only with music I wasn't really familiar with. They played a few Pink Floyd tracks from Meddle, and from an HD Beatles USB stick, and I was gobsmacked at how good both sounded! How did I describe this experience? "It sounded like vinyl". Says it all.

It had the three dimensionality and depth that vinyl has, and it totally lost that harsh, digital edge, which again is something vinyl doesn't have. It sounded like music, rather than noise.

I'm still collecting vinyl as there's very little of the stuff I like on 96/24 - it all seems to be plinky plonky hi-fi show stuff. So until what I like appears on HD, I'll stick to vinyl. My Michell Gryo SEduction will be with me very soon. At some point I'll pick up an SME IV or V to go with it, and I'm sure that will see me out.

 

[plastic penguin]

24bit/96Khz hi-rez lossless downloads will see off any remaining doubters that digital sounds inferior to analogue. As for the benefits of readable notes, picture sleeves, the smell of vinyl etc. that will always remain.

That's one way to look at it, but the way I see it is that 96/24 has brought digital up to vinyl's standard! Last year when I went down to the Cyrus factory to for a pre-launch listen to their streamers, they played a few 96/24 tracks. I'd had experience of HDCD and DTS music before, but usually only with music I wasn't really familiar with. They played a few Pink Floyd tracks from Meddle, and from an HD Beatles USB stick, and I was gobsmacked at how good both sounded! How did I describe this experience? "It sounded like vinyl". Says it all. It had the three dimensionality and depth that vinyl has, and it totally lost that harsh, digital edge, which again is something vinyl doesn't have. It sounded like music, rather than noise. I'm still collecting vinyl as there's very little of the stuff I like on 96/24 - it all seems to be plinky plonky hi-fi show stuff. So until what I like appears on HD, I'll stick to vinyl. My Michell Gryo SEduction will be with me very soon. At some point I'll pick up an SME IV or V to go with it, and I'm sure that will see me out.

Also, it's worth noting that the amount of threads over the years where a poster has asked something to the tune of: "What CD player comes closest to vinyl..." etc etc.

That sums it up perfectly.

 

[MUSICRAFT]

After a period of not using it, I've set my Project Genie turntable up again, taken time to check set-up properly (including cartridge alignment), and had a good long listening session which has shown me all the reasons why I've always loved vinyl as a format. It makes me want to listen and listen and listen, and this is just a very elementary turntable/cartridge/phono stage combination. No form of digital music, whether CD or lossless file based, has ever managed to quite have this effect on me and I've never really been able to totally move on from vinyl. Some of these records are very old now - I was playing some of them on a PL12D in my bedroom aged 8 onwards and many of them belonged to Dad before that - and yet with an occasional clean, and a wipe with an anti-static brush before each playing, they still sound superb.

The questions over the future of CD, raised on these forums only the other day, have got me thinking about my musical future. I'm not really interested in streaming etc. and my big CD collection isn't going anywhere, but I can see myself collecting vinyl much more seriously and investigating more of both the 2nd hand market and the 'audiophile' re-pressings of today (of which I have a few already).

As CD reaches it's slow fade out into being a more niche product, how does everyone else feel about vinyl?

Hi Matt

Black gold

All the best

Rick @ Musicraft

 

[6th.replicant]

..."What CD player comes closest to vinyl..." ...

A CD37 playing SACDs

 

[Anonymous]

That's one way to look at it, but the way I see it is that 96/24 has brought digital up to vinyl's standard!

Old wives tale. The CD format is superior in every way to vinyl. Bad recordings are all that has given it the bad name.

Vinyl for me sounds horrible, and I've listened to some great setups. A good recording of a ripped CD beats vinyl in every respect IMO.

For me. One single "crackle" that oughtn't be there is enough for me to throw a shoe at the thing!

*that's not to say I don't understand why some people seem to love the whole hands-on, touchy feely experience

 

[Anonymous]

..."What CD player comes closest to vinyl..." ...

Simple. A free plugin.

http://www.izotope.com/products/audio/vinyl/

 

[Anonymous]

For those wedded to the vinyl sound, the following download is available to process your audiofiles:

http://www.izotope.com/products/audio/vinyl/

It allows the following parameters to be set, mechanical noise, LP wear, electrical noise, dust, scratch, LP warp depth.

Edit - sorry for the duplicate, got beaten to it.

 

[matthewpiano]

That completely misses the point in my opinion. Vinyl is easy enough to look after if you are careful, and proper set-up can help to eliminate mechanical noise. If set-up and vinyl care is looked after the amount of surface noise is minimal. These largely surmountable 'issues' are not the reasons why people love vinyl and a simple plug-in won't suddenly make digital sound analogue.

Vinyl isn't a 'perfect' format, but then neither is CD or streaming. Every format has it's issues. The attraction with vinyl is the special immediacy, dynamism and involving nature of the sound. You are getting an analogue waveform from beginning to end, and the sound has real presence and naturalness that I still haven't heard very often from a digital format (and I do love CD for lots of other reasons).

 

[Frank Harvey]

I've mentioned this before, but when you have a CD based system playing in store, it's easily ignored by browsers. When a vinyl system is playing in store, more people notice it - not visually - they're just drawn to the natural, effortless, organic sound that is second nature to an analogue system.

 

[the record spot]

I'm frequently astonished that terms such as "organic", "effortless" and "natural" appear to be excluded from digital - I've owned my current CDP for about three years now and it beats the corresponding P3 comfortably. It's not the format, it's the underlying quality of the recording and the subsequent mastering - simply by virtue of being on black plastic is nil guarantee of anything. I've found the recordings and masterings that tick the right boxes for me and my CDs are easily the equal of their vinyl counterparts.

 

[Anonymous]

I'm frequently astonished that terms such as "organic", "effortless" and "natural" appear to be excluded from digital - I've owned my current CDP for about three years now and it beats the corresponding P3 comfortably. It's not the format, it's the underlying quality of the recording and the subsequent mastering - simply by virtue of being on black plastic is nil guarantee of anything. I've found the recordings and masterings that tick the right boxes for me and my CDs are easily the equal of their vinyl counterparts.

I imagine better, as they lack the inherent distortion that a black disk brings to the table. And yes, the recording is king. A well recorded vinyl record will beat a badly recorded CD, but all being equal and the CD player is leaps and bounds ahead.

 

[Frank Harvey]

I'm frequently astonished that terms such as "organic", "effortless" and "natural" appear to be excluded from digital - I've owned my current CDP for about three years now and it beats the corresponding P3 comfortably. It's not the format, it's the underlying quality of the recording and the subsequent mastering - simply by virtue of being on black plastic is nil guarantee of anything. I've found the recordings and masterings that tick the right boxes for me and my CDs are easily the equal of their vinyl counterparts.

I agree, the recording needs to be a good one, but I've found that bad recordings come across better on vinyl. generally speaking of course.

But, a great recording is also no guarantee of quality if the source isn't up to scratch. Obviously a budget turntable isn't going to make the most of what's available on the record, which is where a budget CD player may have an advantage. Even so, a budget turntable still sounds generally better than a budget CD, even if it isn't as clean sounding.

The reason you rarely hear me use these words about digital sources, is that I rarely feel they're warranted. I would use them, and have, regarding the streaming of HD material I heard at Cyrus when they launched their streamers, and I've also used them in relation to the Cyrus/Blade system that we have in store. A 96/24 copy of some old Beatles and Pink Floyd stuff sounded amazing - they had more of vinyl's attributes.

There's many aspects of digital that I don't like, the main one being that most digital sources just don't have the three dimensional soundstaging of a vinyl one. Listen to a CD system - where's the sound coming from? Listen to a vinyl system, and ask yourself the same question.

(I would like to point out that when I refer to vinyl, I'm talking about vinyl reproduction on a good quality deck, like a Michell Gyro SE, and any comparisons are made to equivalently priced CD players)

 

[Anonymous]

Key to any good listening experience is the original care taken with the recording which if done well renders the medium of storage as somewhat secondary. It will be interesting to see how many Westlife tracks come out on 24 bit, none I presume as they were rubbish recordings in the first place. I have some 24 bit stuff and yes its very good but I happen to think they are good mainly due to the recording quality as opposed to the format but then my ears are not that highly trained. Heard some vinyl at Manchester Hi Fi Show and the Mrs was knocked out as to how good it sounded, but again these were carefully recorded records not the sort of stuff that inhabits Tesco. My brother is now vinyl only ( mind you he does have a cracking Michell deck and outputs it through ATC amp and speakers!), having disposed of his CD's a while ago. Personally though I like my Sonos, probably because I'm a lazy git who can't be bothered to leave my armchair. But I hope vinyl thrives as it is a very unique interactive experience.

 

[chebby]

Old wives tale. The CD format is superior in every way to vinyl. Bad recordings are all that has given it the bad name.

Vinyl for me sounds horrible, and I've listened to some great setups. A good recording of a ripped CD beats vinyl in every respect IMO.

Despite the faff and the 'neediness' of turntables/vinyl (that made me eventually get rid of my last turntable) one of the little pleasures of it was other people's reactions to the sound of the music.

On many occasions friends/family/colleagues/our builders/a couple of neighbours/our daughter's boyfriends (and some other visitors) would come into the living-room whilst an LP was playing and comment on the quality without knowing it was coming from a record player. (My turntable was always sited a couple of metres away from the nearest speaker, and behind a bookcase to isolate it. So it was not visible from the main part of the room.)

The first assumption was always that the sound must be from a CD player (where else could it come from? There were only CD players). In fact the subject of what was acting as the source simply never arose because no-one else had a turntable (except in attics maybe).

Quite a few people - over the years - got a bit of a suprise when the stylus reached the run-out groove and I took the LP off or flipped it over. Many comments along the lines of... "I thought that records were meant to be scratchy and made lots of popping noises".

More suprise that good quality turntables could still be purchased brand-new.

However, i'll concede that some care (and expense) was involved in getting a collection of records with no 'nasties'. I had to be very, very picky about selecting second hand records (I always chose condition over collectibility) and - luckily - my local s/h record shop had (still has) a well maintained twin platter Keith Monks record cleaner so none of my second-hand purchases went under the stylus without a thorough clean and a new anti-static inner sleeve first. That added £2 to the cost of every LP but gave me peace-of-mind.

(Whenever I bought brand new LPs I would take them to the same shop and have them cleaned before playing too.)

Regular stylus brushing and use of an anti-static carbon fibre brush (along with immediately placing the record back in it's sleeve and cover after each play) kept my collection pristine. At a price in terms of money and 'faff'.

It was that care, time and money that - eventually - led me to sell my last turntable in 2009 and not replace it. It was not because of scratches or pops or crackles. I didn't get them. It was the effort needed to not get them that I gave up on.

 

[edplaysdrums42]

I prefer the sound of vinyl. I also have a cd player and stream from my imac too but i enjoy each source for what it is. The thing about playing records is there is much more of a hobby element to it. Its not just about the sound but collecting records and the whole physical side of it too, as someone earlier on in the thread mentioned the "touchy feelly thing".

Setting up turntables can be pain but enjoyable too. I know some people dont like to get up and turn records over etc..i like that part to it i ithink the whole experience draws you in. As Rick says "black gold"

Cheers Ed

 

[matthewpiano]

Some interesting discussion going on here and some great points from the pro and against camps.

To me, it all boils down to musical enjoyment and a feeling of contentment when listening. Vinyl is giving me that in spades and I suppose that is all that really matters to me. Longer, more contented and less restless listening sessions are a feature of my life again and there is something to be said for that, whatever the technicalities. This is more like I remember listening to music to be, when it really was a wonderful thing to do. As a consequence a turntable upgrade is finally on the cards and I may well go back to an older Thorens like the TD150MkII that I used to love and cherish before I made the crazy decision to sell it.