Better amp=better sound?

[dellroy]

So, I have a budget Amp. Unhappy with the sound it puts into my Zensor 3 speakers, I am in the process of finding a better amp. I have read forums and so called expert advice on line, and get confused by all the differing opinions.

I realise that the sound a system produces is subjective. What one person likes another may not. But in theory, if you were to replace a budget £180 amp that the manufacturer States gives 2 x 50w per channel, with a £600 amp that gives 2 x 85w per Chanel, should the same speakers be much more controlled and provide a "better" Sound. Or can it be that to some ears the cheaper amp sounds better?

 

[Laurens_B]

Generally speaking, yes, in this pricerange the more expensive amp will give a "better" sound in terms of control of the speakers. Ofcourse this might depend on what brands you compare.

What people like or dislike about the sound is ofcourse very subjective. If you would compare different amps of around 600 pounds, sound preferences really matter, also matching with speakers is very important. So what you don't like about your sound, might have nothing to do with the price of the amp, but the sound signature of the amp, or amp/speaker combination.

So for example, if your amp is Marantz, and you really dislike it, you might still dislike your sound when you buy a 600 pound Marantz. And if you would replace it with a 180 pound NAD, you might really like your sound, because it fits your preferences better. Ofcourse, the 600 pound NAD in that case would probably be "better" in terms of speaker control and power output.

But again, as you put it, a 180 pound amp versus a 600 pound amp, the 600 one will be generally "better".

 

[Al ears]

Perhaps the cheaper amp might sound better to a few but not the majority I would imagine, however this is all irrelevent, as it is how it sounds to you that matters which is why audition and audition again is always pushed on this forum.

Amps are funny things and more power does not necessarily mean more control, a lot of other factors are involved here.

As a rule of thumb though you would be right in thinking more expensive amps should control your speakers better, understand however, it is normally the source that governs this sound quality as well and you do not state what your source is edit - I have just seen your sig.

 

[davedotco]

I think you are placing far too much emphasis on manufacturers power ratings, which are often (deliberately) misleading.

In real world situations the difference between an amplifier of 50 watts and one at 85 watts, if the measurements are taken in the same way, is tiny, barely noticeable.

In reality most well designed modern amplifiers will sound very similar, effectively the same when they are working within their limits. In a lot of systems this is not the case, we know how difficult loads will quickly drive some amplifiers out of their limits and it is this, their interaction with the real world, that we are hearing when we audition different amplifiers.

This is why we need to listen.......*preved*

 

[Vladimir]

In real world situations the difference between an amplifier of 50 watts and one at 85 watts, if the measurements are taken in the same way, is tiny, barely noticeable.

If the 50W and 85W per channel amplifier have the same power supply capacity (in joules), just the 85Wpc amp has more output devices, there shouldn't be any great advantages. Only the later amp being aprox. 2 dB louder, which with music isn't that much.

If the 85Wpc has bigger power supply, or regulated power supply, it has a tangible advantage. If the 50Wpc has a bigger power supply or regulated, it has the advantage.

Watts are meaningless unless presented in measurments with power envelope of how well the amplifier handles different loads. Only thing that an amplifier needs to do is not run out of power while 'lifting' the load. Nothing else.

 

[davedotco]

In real world situations the difference between an amplifier of 50 watts and one at 85 watts, if the measurements are taken in the same way, is tiny, barely noticeable.

If the 50W and 85W per channel amplifier have the same power supply capacity (in joules), just the 85Wpc amp has more output devices, there shouldn't be any great advantages. Only the later amp being aprox. 2 dB louder, which with music isn't that much.

If the 85Wpc has bigger power supply, or regulated power supply, it has a tangible advantage. If the 50Wpc has a bigger power supply or regulated, it has the advantage.

Watts are meaningless unless presented in measurments with power envelope of how well the amplifier handles different loads. Only thing that an amplifier needs to do is not run out of power while 'lifting' the load. Nothing else.

I was assuming all things being equal, ie the same size power supply 'in proportion' to the power output. As you say, the real difference is in the detail, power supply capacity and response time is a big issue, I'm not quite so sold on regulated supplies, but in general power supplies are pivotal.

 

[Al ears]

In real world situations the difference between an amplifier of 50 watts and one at 85 watts, if the measurements are taken in the same way, is tiny, barely noticeable.

If the 50W and 85W per channel amplifier have the same power supply capacity (in joules), just the 85Wpc amp has more output devices, there shouldn't be any great advantages. Only the later amp being aprox. 2 dB louder, which with music isn't that much.

If the 85Wpc has bigger power supply, or regulated power supply, it has a tangible advantage. If the 50Wpc has a bigger power supply or regulated, it has the advantage.

Watts are meaningless unless presented in measurments with power envelope of how well the amplifier handles different loads. Only thing that an amplifier needs to do is not run out of power while 'lifting' the load. Nothing else.

I was assuming all things being equal, ie the same size power supply 'in proportion' to the power output. As you say, the real difference is in the detail, power supply capacity and response time is a big issue, I'm not quite so sold on regulated supplies, but in general power supplies are pivotal.

This is precisely what I was implying with 'more power does not necessarily mean more control, a lot of other factors are involved here.'

I still would urge the OP to look at changing the source as the amp he has should suit those Dali's quite well.

 

[Vladimir]

I was assuming all things being equal, ie the same size power supply 'in proportion' to the power output. As you say, the real difference is in the detail, power supply capacity and response time is a big issue, I'm not quite so sold on regulated supplies, but in general power supplies are pivotal.

Eh...

Regulated power supply works brilliantly within its design remit. Once the load demands more, there is no sagging voltage rails and blunt sound, the amplifier cuts off completely.

Fully regulated power supplies are the only trait worthy of praise in Naim and Exposure amps of old IMO. That is how they got away with 30W amps pushing power hungry isobariks. No regulation = no foot tapping.

 

[Thompsonuxb]

What is it about the sound you dislike?

What do you want from your amp speaker combo - clarity, more bass, stereophonic image.

More power like in most things will give you some improvement or something different to what you are getting now but it's not the be all.

Example Roksan kandy @ 175wpc cost half that of the Caspian @ 80wpc the later amp costing x2 the price of the former.

So do expand.... You may be able to tailor the sound with tweaks.

 

[dellroy]

Thanks for the replies.

I find the clarity of the music to be lacking. Like the separation of instruments, or the full detail of an artists voice in a strong vocal. Bass is just ok, but doesn't seem that well controlled. I has toyed with the idea of getting a quality DAC to connect the laptop to amp (I used a cheap Lindy DAC right now) for when I stream.

 

[Craig M.]

Thanks for the replies.

I find the clarity of the music to be lacking. Like the separation of instruments, or the full detail of an artists voice in a strong vocal. Bass is just ok, but doesn't seem that well controlled.

Try to hear some active speakers, I've found the above to be major plus points of actives.

 

[Thompsonuxb]

Does your CD player sound as 'bad' as the laptop.

The performance 2 are a good interconnects

 

[davedotco]

I was assuming all things being equal, ie the same size power supply 'in proportion' to the power output. As you say, the real difference is in the detail, power supply capacity and response time is a big issue, I'm not quite so sold on regulated supplies, but in general power supplies are pivotal.

Eh... Regulated power supply works brilliantly within its design remit. Once the load demands more, there is no sagging voltage rails and blunt sound, the amplifier cuts off completely.

Fully regulated power supplies are the only trait worthy of praise in Naim and Exposure amps of old IMO. That is how they got away with 30W amps pushing power hungry isobariks. No regulation = no foot tapping.

Not entirely true Vlad.

Fully regulated power amplifiers can sound very good but at a substantial cost which is not always worthwhile. The big disadvantage is, as you yourself pointed out, the inability to go beyond its rated peak capability.

This can be a big issue in some cases, we know how much power can be required from an amplifier, and if they exceed the maximum power the signal will be clipped. Regulated amplifiers may be great at supplying current into difficult loads but given the reduced voltage rails, they will clip early.

On the other hand an amplifier with the same sized but unregulated power supply can often produce peaks that go well beyond it's rated capability, particularly in designs that use plenty of psu capacitance in their design.

Since you brought them up, it was well understood that a Nap250 would drive 'Bariks to higher levels than the Nap135 though the latter sounded better at lower levels as they handled the very low impedences better.

This as a good comparison as, in early models at least, the 135 had the same power supply and power amp board as the 250, with the power regulation board taking the place of the second amp board. If I recall correctly the 135 had a very slightly lower rail voltage than the 250, and a slightly lower rated output, an indication of just how much power supply is needed to produce a fully regulated amplifier.

So whilst I agree that power supplies are pivotal, I am not entirely sure that full regulation is the best answer. What would have been interesting would have been a 135 style mono amplifier but without regulation, just a more potent amplifier board.

Never happened sadly, but a 150watt unregulated mono amplifier would have been interesting.

 

[Vladimir]

Regulated power supplies are one of the methods for making an amplifier ignorant of impedance loads. Cannot claim it is the best, but it is certanly effective. They are expensive considering it is an amplifier within an amplifier.

 

[matt49]

Fully regulated power amplifiers can sound very good but at a substantial cost which is not always worthwhile. The big disadvantage is, as you yourself pointed out, the inability to go beyond its rated peak capability.

This can be a big issue in some cases, we know how much power can be required from an amplifier, and if they exceed the maximum power the signal will be clipped. Regulated amplifiers may be great at supplying current into difficult loads but given the reduced voltage rails, they will clip early.

On the other hand an amplifier with the same sized but unregulated power supply can often produce peaks that go well beyond it's rated capability, particularly in designs that use plenty of psu capacitance in their design.

Since you brought them up, it was well understood that a Nap250 would drive 'Bariks to higher levels than the Nap135 though the latter sounded better at lower levels as they handled the very low impedences better.

This as a good comparison as, in early models at least, the 135 had the same power supply and power amp board as the 250, with the power regulation board taking the place of the second amp board. If I recall correctly the 135 had a very slightly lower rail voltage than the 250, and a slightly lower rated output, an indication of just how much power supply is needed to produce a fully regulated amplifier.

So whilst I agree that power supplies are pivotal, I am not entirely sure that full regulation is the best answer. What would have been interesting would have been a 135 style mono amplifier but without regulation, just a more potent amplifier board.

Never happened sadly, but a 150watt unregulated mono amplifier would have been interesting.

This. Sells for £3.5K in the UK. Designed for use with ESLs. I'm getting one on loan tomorrow.

 

[davedotco]

Regulated power supplies are one of the methods for making an amplifier ignorant of impedance loads. Cannot claim it is the best, but it is certanly effective. They are expensive considering it is an amplifier within an amplifier.

It is effective in doing what you describe but at a price, that being a very limited peak voltage capabilities. Like all 'solutions' there are some situations where they work better than others.

 

[davedotco]

Fully regulated power amplifiers can sound very good but at a substantial cost which is not always worthwhile. The big disadvantage is, as you yourself pointed out, the inability to go beyond its rated peak capability.

This can be a big issue in some cases, we know how much power can be required from an amplifier, and if they exceed the maximum power the signal will be clipped. Regulated amplifiers may be great at supplying current into difficult loads but given the reduced voltage rails, they will clip early.

On the other hand an amplifier with the same sized but unregulated power supply can often produce peaks that go well beyond it's rated capability, particularly in designs that use plenty of psu capacitance in their design.

Since you brought them up, it was well understood that a Nap250 would drive 'Bariks to higher levels than the Nap135 though the latter sounded better at lower levels as they handled the very low impedences better.

This as a good comparison as, in early models at least, the 135 had the same power supply and power amp board as the 250, with the power regulation board taking the place of the second amp board. If I recall correctly the 135 had a very slightly lower rail voltage than the 250, and a slightly lower rated output, an indication of just how much power supply is needed to produce a fully regulated amplifier.

So whilst I agree that power supplies are pivotal, I am not entirely sure that full regulation is the best answer. What would have been interesting would have been a 135 style mono amplifier but without regulation, just a more potent amplifier board.

Never happened sadly, but a 150watt unregulated mono amplifier would have been interesting.

This. Sells for £3.5K in the UK. Designed for use with ESLs. I'm getting one on loan tomorrow.

Ahh, the Magtech, lovely.......!

Stereo or Monos?

 

[Vladimir]

This. Sells for £3.5K in the UK. Designed for use with ESLs. I'm getting one on loan tomorrow.

That!

 

[matt49]

Ahh, the Magtech, lovely.......!

Stereo or Monos?

I think stereo will be fine for my room and listening habits. The monos are for crazy meatheads, no?

It'll be interesting to compare it to the Devialet. I have mixed feelings about this. The Devialet is a thing of beauty, but the Magtech (or similar) would make more sense in the new house. If the Magtech wins, it gets to run the Montis in the living room, and the Dev can go into service with the Cremonas (now SAM-ready) in my den. Result.

That!

The man is a legend.

 

[matthewpiano]

To the OP...

I know I've said this to you before, but you are in serious danger of jumping into a swirling mess of box changing without ever finding satisfaction. A better amplifier, which controls your speakers more effectively, will certainly get more out of them, but simply picking one out and hoping for the best isn't going to bring you long-term happiness.

I've now got two systems that I enjoy immensely, but getting to this stage has been a long process with too many changes along the way. It was only when I spent some proper time with two very good dealers that I was able to identify where I wanted to be and how I would get there.

If you take that time to listen, both to different options and the advice of a good dealer, you can skip all the messing and get straight to enjoying the music.

 

[Thompsonuxb]

I agree Mathew.

Dellroy you need to decide on a budget and move forward in a systematic way.

Picking Amps at random is not the way.

Consider amp speaker options to replace your current kit.

Budget amp and speakers will sound budget.

Go have a listen to that Marantz pm7005 and compare it with other amps and speaker combos.

To the OP...

I know I've said this to you before, but you are in serious danger of jumping into a swirling mess of box changing without ever finding satisfaction.  A better amplifier, which controls your speakers more effectively, will certainly get more out of them, but simply picking one out and hoping for the best isn't going to bring you long-term happiness.

I've now got two systems that I enjoy immensely, but getting to this stage has been a long process with too many changes along the way.  It was only when I spent some proper time with two very good dealers that I was able to identify where I wanted to be and how I would get there.?

If you take that time to listen, both to different options and the advice of a good dealer, you can skip all the messing and get straight to enjoying the music.

 

 

[dellroy]

I agree Mathew.

Dellroy you need to decide on a budget and move forward in a systematic way.

Picking Amps at random is not the way.

Consider amp speaker options to replace your current kit.

Budget amp and speakers will sound budget.

Go have a listen to that Marantz pm7005 and compare it with other amps and speaker combos.

To the OP...

I know I've said this to you before, but you are in serious danger of jumping into a swirling mess of box changing without ever finding satisfaction. A better amplifier, which controls your speakers more effectively, will certainly get more out of them, but simply picking one out and hoping for the best isn't going to bring you long-term happiness.

I've now got two systems that I enjoy immensely, but getting to this stage has been a long process with too many changes along the way. It was only when I spent some proper time with two very good dealers that I was able to identify where I wanted to be and how I would get there.

If you take that time to listen, both to different options and the advice of a good dealer, you can skip all the messing and get straight to enjoying the music.

Thank you both for your advice. You are both completely right. i was certainly gearing towards buying without an audition and just hoping for the best thinking that a more expensive amp will automatically provide better quality. I was interested in the Nad 365 dac as Sevenoaks have a number of them ex-display with £220 off. But they are too far away for me to travel.

There are 2 local dealers that stock the Quad Vena and Marantz 7005 so I am going to arrange auditions of them before xmas . Neither stock my speakers though to try them with so it won't be exact. When I asked about a home audition one dealer said I would have to buy the item and could return it if I didn't like it, but the expectation would be that I buy something at the end of it.

 

[Al ears]

I agree Mathew.

Dellroy you need to decide on a budget and move forward in a systematic way.

Picking Amps at random is not the way.

Consider amp speaker options to replace your current kit.

Budget amp and speakers will sound budget.

Go have a listen to that Marantz pm7005 and compare it with other amps and speaker combos.

To the OP...

I know I've said this to you before, but you are in serious danger of jumping into a swirling mess of box changing without ever finding satisfaction. A better amplifier, which controls your speakers more effectively, will certainly get more out of them, but simply picking one out and hoping for the best isn't going to bring you long-term happiness.

I've now got two systems that I enjoy immensely, but getting to this stage has been a long process with too many changes along the way. It was only when I spent some proper time with two very good dealers that I was able to identify where I wanted to be and how I would get there.

If you take that time to listen, both to different options and the advice of a good dealer, you can skip all the messing and get straight to enjoying the music.

Thank you both for your advice. You are both completely right. i was certainly gearing towards buying without an audition and just hoping for the best thinking that a more expensive amp will automatically provide better quality. I was interested in the Nad 365 dac as Sevenoaks have a number of them ex-display with £220 off. But they are too far away for me to travel.

There are 2 local dealers that stock the Quad Vena and Marantz 7005 so I am going to arrange auditions of them before xmas . Neither stock my speakers though to try them with so it won't be exact. When I asked about a home audition one dealer said I would have to buy the item and could return it if I didn't like it, but the expectation would be that I buy something at the end of it.

That is quite the norm for most dealers.

Before going for a new amp make sure it is not that CD player that is the culprit.

 

[dellroy]

I agree Mathew.

Dellroy you need to decide on a budget and move forward in a systematic way.

Picking Amps at random is not the way.

Consider amp speaker options to replace your current kit.

Budget amp and speakers will sound budget.

Go have a listen to that Marantz pm7005 and compare it with other amps and speaker combos.

To the OP...

I know I've said this to you before, but you are in serious danger of jumping into a swirling mess of box changing without ever finding satisfaction. A better amplifier, which controls your speakers more effectively, will certainly get more out of them, but simply picking one out and hoping for the best isn't going to bring you long-term happiness.

I've now got two systems that I enjoy immensely, but getting to this stage has been a long process with too many changes along the way. It was only when I spent some proper time with two very good dealers that I was able to identify where I wanted to be and how I would get there.

If you take that time to listen, both to different options and the advice of a good dealer, you can skip all the messing and get straight to enjoying the music.

Thank you both for your advice. You are both completely right. i was certainly gearing towards buying without an audition and just hoping for the best thinking that a more expensive amp will automatically provide better quality. I was interested in the Nad 365 dac as Sevenoaks have a number of them ex-display with £220 off. But they are too far away for me to travel.

There are 2 local dealers that stock the Quad Vena and Marantz 7005 so I am going to arrange auditions of them before xmas . Neither stock my speakers though to try them with so it won't be exact. When I asked about a home audition one dealer said I would have to buy the item and could return it if I didn't like it, but the expectation would be that I buy something at the end of it.

That is quite the norm for most dealers.

Before going for a new amp make sure it is not that CD player that is the culprit.

Thanks Al. I a planning on getting rid of the CD player as I don't really use it. Hence the choice of amps with built in DACs to connect my laptop to for streaming and flac playback