Bass expectations

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I auditioned a pair of Kudos Cardea C30s yesterday as an upgrade to EPOS ES30s which are a tad bass shy at lower volume levels. While the C30s are clearly a step up in many ways and teh mid range is simply sublime, I didn't hear the deep and powerful bass I was expecting most of the time. On some CDs however, the bass was much more pronounced so am left wondering: are my expectations valid, or is it that the way most CDs are mastered means deep bass just isn't there? For example, playing some Phil Collins, I would expect the kick drum to come thumping through - the rest of the kit does but not the bass drum as much as I would expect.

I'm left wondering whether I should invest in a pair of subs instead...and/or save up for something altogether bigger like a pair of Wilsons?

Front end is a Wadia 861 and a pair of Muse 300W mono blocks so there should be enough grunt on tap! Room is 4m x 4m
 

Jacko

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Surely Phil Collins doesn't deserve to be played on Kudos Cardea C30s ????
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oldric_naubhoff

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Dr Lodge said:
For example, playing some Phil Collins, I would expect the kick drum to come thumping through - the rest of the kit does but not the bass drum as much as I would expect.

I think what you're describing is how bass drum sounds on a concert. if you amplify bass drum and play it through large PA speakers that's what you get but it's not how bass drum really sounds like. studio recordings capture much more life like sound. if you want truly deep and natural bass you go for large orchestral music or organ music or electronic music with artificially created low tones (especially ambient is a good pick). and if you don't find any deep bass there I'd suggest trying Dynaudio speakers. but go for large monitors, Special 25s maybe? floorstanders will be overkill in your small room.
 

Craig M.

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Dr Lodge said:
On some CDs however, the bass was much more pronounced so am left wondering: are my expectations valid, or is it that the way most CDs are mastered means deep bass just isn't there?

if some cds had deep bass, and some not, then doesn't that answer your question?
 

MattSPL

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Often with good systems, it can be dissapointing listening to some cd's.

For 2 totally different examples, Phil collins and the prodigy sounded bassy and loud on an old system i had with PMC IB1 speakers and a Krell FPB200 power amp.

On my current system, they both sound fairly bass light. The Prodigy being highly compressed to suit small portable radio's playing at full blast without blowing them up with bass, and Phil collins sounding more natural and real with no particular instrument over powering another.

If you want bass power like being at a live gig, as opposed to quality and realism, then get yourself some of the larger PMC speakers. The EB1i and upwards will do the trick.
 

lindsayt

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The Kudos Cardea C30's manufacturers website claims that they have an frequency response of 20hz to 30khz (AIRR).

They don't say how many -dbs that is at 20Hz.

I'd like to see frequency response charts for these speakers.

The 7" bass cones used in these speakers are tiny. They will naturally start to roll off at about 80Hz. Port noise will boost the bass extension below that.

There will be kick drums and bass guitar on at least some of the tracks of any Phil Collins album. Trouble is, speakers like the Kudos and Epos can't play them properly. Either not enough bass extension, or not enough bass quality or both. There are thousands of hi-fi speakers like them.

I think you'd find it interesting to listen to the same CD via speakers with 18" or larger bass cones.
 

dannycanham

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Not my taste but didn't the baldy man use an electronic drumkit on some of his albums?

Some production "fashions" in say the 80s didn't go for much bass either.

No idea if either applies though.
 

tyranniux42

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lindsayt said:
The Kudos Cardea C30's manufacturers website claims that they have an frequency response of 20hz to 30khz (AIRR).

They don't say how many -dbs that is at 20Hz.

I'd like to see frequency response charts for these speakers.

if it says 'frequency response' then it will be @-3db top and bottom (also called the half power point), unless they are being a little sneaky and quoting the -6db figure which is the 1st order roll off point.

most manufacturers quote both figures as the speaker will be producing plenty of energy at the -6db especially when you consider the placement of a speaker in a room can have gains of much more than 6db for some frequencies.

as for the listening through 18 inch drivers, I personally wouldnt fancy that in this size of room! the 7 inch cones may be 'tiny' but coupled with the cabinet and porting will reasonably accuratly produce the frequencies quoted in the frequency response. if it wasnt flat(ish) response tnhroughout then it would be quoted as the frequency response, so regardless of whether the driver unit can produce the frequency with or without porting and a box cabinet is irrelevant imo.

I have a lot of PA gear, my largest set of speakers are 15 inch active Wharfedales and I can tell you now that in the same room they dont go any lower, and certainly do not sound as good as my hifi gear, although I would not expect it to given the cost difference...

just my 0.02

:)
 
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Anonymous

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Well I figured that the Kudos C30 is a lovely speaker in just about every way, and the lack of bass could be more to do with room acoustics. Looks like I should have a chance of trying a pair of Wilson Audio Watt/Puppy 6s - that should show just what kind of bass is possible!
 

lindsayt

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I think you can do rather better than the Wilson Watt / Puppys when it comes to bass. They have two 8" bass cones in a medium sized ported box.

I prefer the bass from 12" or bigger cones in a large sealed box. I'll also be investigating 30" bass cones in a Klipschorn type arrangement soon - which has a good chance of sounding better than the Wilsons too.
 

oldric_naubhoff

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Dr Lodge said:
the lack of bass could be more to do with room acoustics.

room acoustics will rarely hinder bass performance. if anything it will most likely reinforce bass in region of roughly 40Hz - 80Hz.

Dr Lodge said:
Looks like I should have a chance of trying a pair of Wilson Audio Watt/Puppy 6s - that should show just what kind of bass is possible!

I'm afraid that what Lindsayit said might be true. if you want to look at these graphs you'll see that Wilsson Audio weren't aming at overly bassy performance. they were rather after transparency. impedance curve and almost identical phase angle curve is clear indicator.

if you desire bass slam above all take a look at these graphs. especially in-room response. but I'm sure those speakers will be overkill for your small room.
 

shooter

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It's the CD's mastering that your hearing and whatever speaker you change too you will hear the same. When you have good equipment you hear everything on the disc good or bad, some of it you will like and some of it you wont and that's the nut's and bolt's of it but enjoy it.

Currently i'm listening to Primal Scream's 1991 Sire Record's recording of Screamadelica, it's so smoothed over it sound's like vinyl, great!

On Phil Collins, his kick drum may be mastered in that way and maybe thats the way he wanted it, who know's. If you like Phil Collin's though listen to his vinyl, it walk's all over the CD, great stuff.
 
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Anonymous

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oldric_naubhoff said:
Dr Lodge said:
the lack of bass could be more to do with room acoustics.

room acoustics will rarely hinder bass performance. if anything it will most likely reinforce bass in region of roughly 40Hz - 80Hz.

Dr Lodge said:
Looks like I should have a chance of trying a pair of Wilson Audio Watt/Puppy 6s - that should show just what kind of bass is possible!

I'm afraid that what Lindsayit said might be true. if you want to look at these graphs you'll see that Wilsson Audio weren't aming at overly bassy performance. they were rather after transparency. impedance curve and almost identical phase angle curve is clear indicator.

if you desire bass slam above all take a look at these graphs. especially in-room response. but I'm sure those speakers will be overkill for your small room.

That mention of the bass-room-acoustics thing is untrue in my experience. I have tried my ProAc's in the living room and my own room. In one room, the lower notes of the bass guitar on Chris Rea's 'The Road to Hell' album fell like they're bringing the house down, in my room however they are inaudible. Speakers being driven on the same amp, same position from the walls, same toe angle etc... I know you say "rarely" but its a very common problem, hence the explosion of cheap active subwoofer sales. It works both ways, the room can both boost and degrade bass performance.

The room is a massive part of your bass performance, infact, other than the actual speakers themselves (and where you sit), it's the biggest factor in how bass sounds, in my opinion.
 
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Anonymous

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Room acoustics definately play a part, that much I'm sure. In my previous house the speakers and settee were at opposite ends of a rectangular room about 5m apart. The bass was a little light there too but if I stood up or moved forward about 1.5m then the bass was more pronouced. The sound also sounded very good outside the room in the downstairs toilet!!

The C30s have grown on me, and with some experimenting of speaker position, I could definately hear a more pronounced bass as well as improvements in all aspects over my ES30s. I may end up purchsing them given what the dealer is asking for these ex-demo pair. I agree with the previous post that the CD mastering is playing a part, and if I really want some extra bass, I can try adding an active subwoofer (BK XXLS400 springs to mind)

The Wilson 6's have arrived at the dealer so should get to try them in a while...what this does show are the advantages of trying kit in your own place rather than the shop demo room.
 

MajorFubar

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Why is it 'acceptible' to try to boost the bass with a sub, but the thought of using tone-controls, a graphic equalizer or an amp with a loudness switch makes some purists vomit in shock?

*Edit: I'm not aiming that at anyone in particular in this thread! Just a general observation.
 

oldric_naubhoff

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MajorFubar said:
Why is it 'acceptible' to try to boost the bass with a sub, but the thought of using tone-controls, a graphic equalizer or an amp with a loudness switch makes some purists vomit in shock? *Edit: I'm not aiming that at anyone in particular in this thread! Just a general observation.

maybe because even if you use tons of bass boost you will not get more bass extension over what you already have. you will only get a bass bump in some 80Hz region (I guess that's the usual point of boosting bass through tone controls?). so if your tiny monitors cutt off at 60Hz you will not make them sound as if they were outputting 30Hz through boosting the bass. and if hi-fi is to be about faithfull music representation (flat freq response rings a bell) than, in MY opinion, tone controls are not acceptable.

another thing is, of course, proper blending of a sub with main speakers (some people just lika a lot of bass, regardles if it's faithfull or not).
 
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Anonymous

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oldric_naubhoff said:
MajorFubar said:
Why is it 'acceptible' to try to boost the bass with a sub, but the thought of using tone-controls, a graphic equalizer or an amp with a loudness switch makes some purists vomit in shock? *Edit: I'm not aiming that at anyone in particular in this thread! Just a general observation.

maybe because even if you use tons of bass boost you will not get more bass extension over what you already have. you will only get a bass bump in some 80Hz region (I guess that's the usual point of boosting bass through tone controls?). so if your tiny monitors cutt off at 60Hz you will not make them sound as if they were outputting 30Hz through boosting the bass. and if hi-fi is to be about faithfull music representation (flat freq response rings a bell) than, in MY opinion, tone controls are not acceptable.

another thing is, of course, proper blending of a sub with main speakers (some people just lika a lot of bass, regardles if it's faithfull or not).

It will never blend to aid a flat frequency response though, as you can't really overlap the slopes of frequency roll off perfectly. Plus the characteristics of the speakers will be different.

If you want more bass, speaker changes or acoustic treatment are the only perfectly legit ways to do it, in my opinion. I think any other way will lose you a considerable amount of accuracy.
 

MajorFubar

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I've heard systems with subs which sound superb when the sub is fed from the dedicated '.1' LFE channel of a true multichannel mix. But when playing stereo music, I've never heard a sub which didn't just sound like someone had unnaturally whacked-up the bass.

I'm also not fully convinced that the human ear lacks directionality below such as 100Hz (or whatever), that being the founding principle on why you only need one sub.
I was once casually listening to a consumer-grade set-up in a shop which just happened to be playing jazz. I could easily tell when the double bass - mixed into the left channel only - dropped out of the left speaker's range and into the range of the sub which had been positioned centrally. It produced the rather unnatural effect of the instrument wandering around the stereo field, depending on what notes were being played.

Though I'm open to being convinced. Maybe I've just never heard a really good one which has been set up correctly.
 
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Anonymous

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MajorFubar said:
I've heard systems with subs which sound superb when the sub is fed from the dedicated '.1' LFE channel of a true multichannel mix. But when playing stereo music, I've never heard a sub which didn't just sound like someone had unnaturally whacked-up the bass. I'm also not fully convinced that the human ear lacks directionality below such as 100Hz (or whatever), that being the founding principle on why you only need one sub. I was once casually listening to a consumer-grade set-up in a shop which just happened to be playing jazz. I could easily tell when the double bass - mixed into the left channel only - dropped out of the left speaker's range and into the range of the sub which had been positioned centrally. It produced the rather unnatural effect of the instrument wandering around the stereo field, depending on what notes were being played. Though I'm open to being convinced. Maybe I've just never heard a really good one which has been set up correctly.

What do you mean by 'consumer-grade'? If you mean those "5.1 in a box" things that Curry's etc sell, it's because the subwoofer isnt a subwoofer, it's just a bass driver with an amplifier attatched to it.
 

Olli1324

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I moved my big floorstanders into a comically small room today, with them barely a metre from my ears. Bass is very much restricted and does get louder/deeper as I move towards the door and onto the landing. In fact, the bass sounds deeper when I stand at the top of stairs. For this reason, I believe that room placement and room acoustics are the most important aspect of getting a good sound.

That said, the treble and mids sound great. A fun experiment to try. Now if only I had a proper room to put these things in permanently! There is no way they are allowed in the lounge
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Edit: I will also say that when I was running a sub with my Wharfedale 9.1s, it sounded superb. Proper deep bass and the whole system sounded very coherent. Subs should not be overlooked in hifi, imho.
 

jiggyjoe

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subwoofers can work really well in hifi systems you just need to cross them over to your main speakers as low as possible.

even relatively small bookshelf speakers can get down to 50 hz with room gain so you can set your sub at 40hz no probs, even lower for floorstanders.

Alot of people set the subs gain way to high, gentle reinforcement is the way to do it for hi-fi.
 

MajorFubar

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That's probably been what's wrong wth the systems I've heard, primarily shop demos (I don't mean HiFi specialists). They seem to whack it up so it's really dominant, and it just doesn't impress me at all. It works ok with DVD/BD films where LFE has a descrete channel (even then I'd tone it down a bit), but when I've heard subs with two-channel music, they just sound like someone's added a 12db boost to every frequency below 100Hz.

I obviously need to hear it done well.
 

oldric_naubhoff

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jiggyjoe said:
subwoofers can work really well in hifi systems you just need to cross them over to your main speakers as low as possible.

even relatively small bookshelf speakers can get down to 50 hz with room gain so you can set your sub at 40hz no probs, even lower for floorstanders.

Alot of people set the subs gain way to high, gentle reinforcement is the way to do it for hi-fi.

+1

subwoofer should only be used to extend freq response into subsonic regions. not give it a boost in mid and high bass region.
 
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Anonymous

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MajorFubar said:
Why is it 'acceptible' to try to boost the bass with a sub, but the thought of using tone-controls, a graphic equalizer or an amp with a loudness switch makes some purists vomit in shock?
I would not call it acceptable to boost the bass with a sub, in fact it's my biggest complaint about some of my friends' sound systems.

Your comparison is flawed, though: the (primary) purpose of a subwoofer is not to boost bass (more volume), but to increase bandwidth (add more low frequencies). If you have speakers that roll off at 60Hz, the sub should provide the missing 20-60Hz frequencies, not provide more volume for the 60-80Hz frequencies. The tone controls (and loudness *gasp*) do not increase bandwidth, they affect volume. From a purist point of view, that dilutes the sound because it's no longer about "faithful reproduction".

*edit: what Joe and Ric said :)
 

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