Avoiding the Loudness War?

[iMark]

We have bought a couple of new albums over the last years. There are always discussions about whether you should by LPs if they come from a digital master. But our experience with a couple of new releases is that the Dynamic Range of the LPs is about twice as good as that of the same album as a CD. Most recent experience: Adele's 25.

So when we buy a new popular music album (which is not that often) we tend to buy the LP rather than the CD. I will then record the LP of the HiFi and load it as an ALAC file into the iTunes library. That way we can transfer them to iPods or play them without damaging the records.

Here are a few examples of new albums we have as LP's:

http://dr.loudness-war.info/album/list?artist=Adele&album=25

http://dr.loudness-war.info/album/list?artist=Paul+Weller&album=Saturns+Pattern

http://dr.loudness-war.info/album/list?artist=Caro+Emerald&album=Deleted+Scenes

http://dr.loudness-war.info/album/list?artist=Pharrell+Williams&album=G+I+R+L+

It just seems very odd that a medium that has a much better SNR than the old LP is being abused by incompetent mastering engineers. The medium with limitations gives a better sounding result because the engineers can't use any clipping.

In classical CDs the dynamic range is still as it should be: better than the equivalent LP.

I have also noticed in the database that there are so called HD tracks that get as bad a score as the CD. It's about time the record companies come to their senses and stop the ridiculous loudness wars.

 

[davedotco]

Any suggestions how we can make them 'come to their senses'?

 

[lindsayt]

Start a new record company where every CD / Download release has 2 equally priced options: Compressed and Totally Uncompressed. With them clearly being labelled at point of sale.

And then go public with the relative sales of each option.

 

[Vladimir]

Anyone seen the new Sonos system video ad featuring Rick Rubbin?

Check it out and yu'll see why the greedy bastard will never come to his $€n$€$.

 

[MajorFubar]

It just seems very odd that a medium that has a much better SNR than the old LP is being abused by incompetent mastering engineers.

Just for the sake of clarity, the mastering engineers aren't incompetent at all, generally they're doing exactly what is asked of them: make it loud. And they're being told to do that because the record labels know loudness sells. There were physical limitations with vinyl and tape that restricted the loudness, these don't exist with digital distribution (CDs and downloads).

 

[Blacksabbath25]

Anyone seen the new Sonos system video ad featuring Rick Rubbin?

Check it out and yu'll see why the greedy bastard will never come to his $€n$€$.

Rick Rubin did the last black sabbath album 13 and it has one of the worst Dr scores you could have the hole album is over done

 

[Thompsonuxb]

I have to confess I find this dynamic range/loudness war thing much a do about nothing.

Of the music listed I have a copy of Pharrel Williams Girl on CD.

It's not a bad sounding CD it's actually pretty good. To say it's dr is compromised is not true either - there is alot going on on most of the tracks so a VU metre does suggest it is.

But I have found alot of the listings on that site not really indicative of the sound quality of some of the music I own.

What is wrong with the volume knob on your amps anyway?

Why don't you turn down these loud albums.

I accept not all recordings are 'equal' but is this loudness debate a real one?

 

[matt49]

What is wrong with the volume knob on your amps anyway?

Why don't you turn down these loud albums.

OMG *help*

 

[Thompsonuxb]

What is wrong with the volume knob on your amps anyway?

Why don't you turn down these loud albums.

OMG *help*

C'mon Matt49 don't be like that - what's the real problem here?

 

[davedotco]

What is wrong with the volume knob on your amps anyway?

Why don't you turn down these loud albums.

OMG *help*

You may as well try and explain this to your spaniel, greater chance of him understanding...*good*

 

[gasolin]

Anyone seen the new Sonos system video ad featuring Rick Rubbin?

Check it out and yu'll see why the greedy bastard will never come to his $€n$€$.

Rick Rubin did the last black sabbath album 13 and it has one of the worst Dr scores you could have the hole album is over done

Why do think that? The Death Magnetic album by metallica is the worst, but look at the 2009 download OMG http://dr.loudness-war.info/album/list?artist=metallica&album=death+magnetic

Sounds ok(although it's fare perfect) on youtube https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hF5YaGCL7dQ (first heard it on spotify OMG it's ugly,horriable)

Spotify https://play.spotify.com/album/3wAdN3V06Btox7NjFfBKRC listen to nr 4 about 2 min into the song HOLY CRAP the sound distorst overload way beyound 0+ on a peak power level meter

 

[chebby]

What is wrong with the volume knob on your amps anyway?

Why don't you turn down these loud albums.

OMG *help*

You may as well try and explain this to your spaniel, greater chance of him understanding...*good*

Stop it Dave ...

"Stop Dave ..."

 

[Blacksabbath25]

Anyone seen the new Sonos system video ad featuring Rick Rubbin?

Check it out and yu'll see why the greedy bastard will never come to his $€n$€$.

Rick Rubin did the last black sabbath album 13 and it has one of the worst Dr scores you could have the hole album is over done

Why do think that? The Death Magnetic album by metallica is the worst, but look at the 2009 download OMG http://dr.loudness-war.info/album/list?artist=metallica&album=death+magnetic

Sounds ok(although it's fare perfect) on youtube https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hF5YaGCL7dQ (first heard it on spotify OMG it's ugly,horriable)

Spotify https://play.spotify.com/album/3wAdN3V06Btox7NjFfBKRC listen to nr 4 about 2 min into the song HOLY CRAP the sound distorst overload way beyound 0+ on a peak power level meter

if you look it up on the dr database it's all in the red scores between 3 -4 which is very poor I have the double cd version the limited edition version I have hardly play that album because it's so bad sound wise . Then if you hear over kill horror scope that album sounds amazing but that was made in the late 80s and as a very good dr score . You will get some CDs that sound dull and then some will sound very forward .

 

[Andrewjvt]

Ignore it and just listen. If abything sounds bad then its the recording not my system

 

[Thompsonuxb]

What is wrong with the volume knob on your amps anyway?

Why don't you turn down these loud albums.

OMG *help*

You may as well try and explain this to your spaniel, greater chance of him understanding...*good*

Stop it Dave - it's a perfectly reasonable stance.

I have many CDs, some of the older ones were replacements for some vinyl tracks I owned.

Tracks can be louder without the upper and lower bits clipped.

I myself when recording vinyl to CD raise the level as the vinyl was eq'd too low.

'Off the wall' by Michael Jackson and Earth, Wind and Fire's 'Let's Grove' being a couple examples.

What I'm asking is what's the real argument.

There a poor recordings on every format - I always felt finding a sweet sounding album/track amongst the noise was part of the joy of hifi.

 

[steve_1979]

 

[Thompsonuxb]

Ok....listening to Pharrell Williams 'Girl'....

That DR data base is rubbish and should not be used to assess the quality of anything....it sounds perfectly fine - the Neptunes usually do good quality productions.

I have to go put it back before the daughter notices it's missing...... *secret*

'Happy' still sounds superb and 'Come Get it Bae too.....

 

[Thompsonuxb]

Lol.....some of you guys, I swear.

To be honest I stayed out of Andrews post along a similar theme.....

But I had to ask what's the real issue.

Don't know what you guys are so scared of....

 

[steve_1979]

To be fair there are lots of dynamically compressed albums released over the past 15 years that still sound really good to listen to. I'd still prefer to hear them with their full dynamic range intact though.

 

[MeanandGreen]

I'm rather surprised to see how poorly that scores on the DR scale. I have the album on CD and although it's not the best sound quality in the world, it certainly doesn't sound like what I'd call bad.

The first track 'Hello' actually starts off quite low and bursts into life for the chorus to the point where I find myself turning the volume down to suit as to my ears there is a significant change in volume there. It doesn't sound like it reads on the DR website. It actually reads similar to something like Chasing Yesterday by Noel Gallagher's High Flying Birds and that does sound poor by comparison.

 

[Thompsonuxb]

To be fair there are lots of dynamically compressed albums released over the past 15 years that still sound really good to listen to. I'd still prefer to hear them with their full dynamic range intact though.

You say that....

I have Gregory Porter's 'Liquid Spirit' right - now to my ear it sounds like it's been eq'd so all the instruments sound about the same level..

Real world drums would kick an acoustic bass - double bass off the stage without a mic on it - instead it's all 'even'. Not very dynamic. The only thing that stands out is his voice.

That said it's a good relaxing listen and once you allow it to wash over you it becomes clear what the producers of this album had in mind.....I think.

It has not been rated on that DR site yet. But chances are the CD will be all in red/Orange.

 

[MeanandGreen]

What is wrong with the volume knob on your amps anyway?

Why don't you turn down these loud albums.

OMG *help*

You may as well try and explain this to your spaniel, greater chance of him understanding...*good*

Stop it Dave - it's a perfectly reasonable stance.

I have many CDs, some of the older ones were replacements for some vinyl tracks I owned.

Tracks can be louder without the upper and lower bits clipped.

I myself when recording vinyl to CD raise the level as the vinyl was eq'd too low.

'Off the wall' by Michael Jackson and Earth, Wind and Fire's 'Let's Grove' being a couple examples.

What I'm asking is what's the real argument.

There a poor recordings on every format - I always felt finding a sweet sounding album/track amongst the noise was part of the joy of hifi.

The loudness issue isn't just about clipping. It doesn't need to be clipped to suffer from heavy compression.

What you are doing with the recording level when recording from vinyl to CD isn't the same thing, it's just boosting the overall level as a turntable has a much lower output than a CD Player. All you are doing is matching this up. The difference between the peaks and troughs on the record will be as they were, you'll just need to playback at a lower volume setting on your amp.

The DR scale is all about mesuring the difference between peaks and troughs in db on a recording. The lower the number the less difference in volume there is between the peaks and troughs. On a digital format this usually means everything is maxed up to 0db from start to finish with no variation in volume and therefore lacking in dynamics.

 

[davedotco]

What is wrong with the volume knob on your amps anyway?

Why don't you turn down these loud albums.

OMG *help*

You may as well try and explain this to your spaniel, greater chance of him understanding...*good*

Stop it Dave - it's a perfectly reasonable stance.

I have many CDs, some of the older ones were replacements for some vinyl tracks I owned.

Tracks can be louder without the upper and lower bits clipped.

I myself when recording vinyl to CD raise the level as the vinyl was eq'd too low.

'Off the wall' by Michael Jackson and Earth, Wind and Fire's 'Let's Grove' being a couple examples.

What I'm asking is what's the real argument.

There a poor recordings on every format - I always felt finding a sweet sounding album/track amongst the noise was part of the joy of hifi.

The loudness issue isn't just about clipping. It doesn't need to be clipped to suffer from heavy compression.

What you are doing with the recording level when recording from vinyl to CD isn't the same thing, it's just boosting the overall level as a turntable has a much lower output than a CD Player. All you are doing is matching this up. The difference between the peaks and troughs on the record will be as they were, you'll just need to playback at a lower volume setting on your amp.

The DR scale is all about mesuring the difference between peaks and troughs in db on a recording. The lower the number the less difference in volume there is between the peaks and troughs. On a digital format this usually means everything is maxed up to 0db from start to finish with no variation in volume and therefore lacking in dynamics.

The DR scale does nothing of the sort.

It is an arbitary measure based on criterea that are not explained and gives an indication of the dynamic range of one recording with respect to another.

A recording with a DR rating of 12 (say) does not mean it has a dynamic range of 12dB, it simply means it has a greater dynamic range than a recording with a lower DR rating.

 

[MeanandGreen]

What is wrong with the volume knob on your amps anyway?

Why don't you turn down these loud albums.

OMG *help*

You may as well try and explain this to your spaniel, greater chance of him understanding...*good*

Stop it Dave - it's a perfectly reasonable stance.

I have many CDs, some of the older ones were replacements for some vinyl tracks I owned.

Tracks can be louder without the upper and lower bits clipped.

I myself when recording vinyl to CD raise the level as the vinyl was eq'd too low.

'Off the wall' by Michael Jackson and Earth, Wind and Fire's 'Let's Grove' being a couple examples.

What I'm asking is what's the real argument.

There a poor recordings on every format - I always felt finding a sweet sounding album/track amongst the noise was part of the joy of hifi.

The loudness issue isn't just about clipping. It doesn't need to be clipped to suffer from heavy compression.

What you are doing with the recording level when recording from vinyl to CD isn't the same thing, it's just boosting the overall level as a turntable has a much lower output than a CD Player. All you are doing is matching this up. The difference between the peaks and troughs on the record will be as they were, you'll just need to playback at a lower volume setting on your amp.

The DR scale is all about mesuring the difference between peaks and troughs in db on a recording. The lower the number the less difference in volume there is between the peaks and troughs. On a digital format this usually means everything is maxed up to 0db from start to finish with no variation in volume and therefore lacking in dynamics.

The DR scale does nothing of the sort.

It is an arbitary measure based on criterea that are not explained and gives an indication of the dynamic range of one recording with respect to another.

A recording with a DR rating of 12 (say) does not mean it has a dynamic range of 12dB, it simply means it has a greater dynamic range than a recording with a lower DR rating.

I didn't say that a DR range of 12 equated to 12 db did I? Or any other number you want to pull out of the air.

I said it is a measurement of the difference between the peaks and troughs in a recording. That IS correct. I have not implied that the numbers quoted are actual decibel levels.

You can be pedantic if you choose, but my explanation in layman's terms to simplify it for another poster is not as you say "nothing of the sort". It is what I have simplified.

 

[MeanandGreen]

What is wrong with the volume knob on your amps anyway?

Why don't you turn down these loud albums.

OMG *help*

You may as well try and explain this to your spaniel, greater chance of him understanding...*good*

Stop it Dave - it's a perfectly reasonable stance.

I have many CDs, some of the older ones were replacements for some vinyl tracks I owned.

Tracks can be louder without the upper and lower bits clipped.

I myself when recording vinyl to CD raise the level as the vinyl was eq'd too low.

'Off the wall' by Michael Jackson and Earth, Wind and Fire's 'Let's Grove' being a couple examples.

What I'm asking is what's the real argument.

There a poor recordings on every format - I always felt finding a sweet sounding album/track amongst the noise was part of the joy of hifi.

The loudness issue isn't just about clipping. It doesn't need to be clipped to suffer from heavy compression.

What you are doing with the recording level when recording from vinyl to CD isn't the same thing, it's just boosting the overall level as a turntable has a much lower output than a CD Player. All you are doing is matching this up. The difference between the peaks and troughs on the record will be as they were, you'll just need to playback at a lower volume setting on your amp.

The DR scale is all about mesuring the difference between peaks and troughs in db on a recording. The lower the number the less difference in volume there is between the peaks and troughs. On a digital format this usually means everything is maxed up to 0db from start to finish with no variation in volume and therefore lacking in dynamics.

You don't need to boost a vinly you record on to a cd since thers is a miss match between the ouput from a cd player and amp and therefore you can't use the volume knob more then to 10 or 11 '0 clock before distortion, that's why a TT sounds different,one of the reasons is that you can use the volume knob over a wider range befor reaching max levels

https://youtu.be/JhuWuTDZiuI?t=20m38s

I know you don't need to boost the recording level to record onto a CD. You could quite easily record it at exactly the same level it comes off the record. It is Thomson who was talking about boosting his recording level from vinyl to CD and I was only pointing out this is not the same thing as DR compression.

I actually prefer to boost the recording level when recording from vinyl to CD as I latter rip it to iTunes. Then when my vinyl tracks are played back amongst tracks of digital origin in my iTunes playlists there is no dramatic difference in volume level.