AVI ADM 40 balanced input.

shooter

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Thanks all for the info on bypassing the DAC section of the 40's in the other thread, i was going to post this reply by it has been locked:

For me i still like boxes ultimately this means flexability and with the 40's having some great drivers in it would be a chance to hear them with my own gear. It may not apeal to some but a balance input straight into the amp section would be a plus.

Feel free to lock this one :)
 

chebby

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Anonymous

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shooter said:
It may not apeal to some but a balance input straight into the amp section would be a plus.

+1

I would definately want a balanced input. So much so, I wouldn't buy these without, rather go with ATCs.
 
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Overdose said:
As a matter of interest, why would you be so interested in balance connections and why would you not consider just using unbalanced connections?

a) My Wadia has them

b) Balance sounds better (did an A-B comparison, its was very clearly audible)

c) The speakers are going to be a fair distance from the CD/preamp so the advantages of balanced are more pronounced.
 

oldric_naubhoff

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Overdose said:
As a matter of interest, why would you be so interested in balance connections and why would you not consider just using unbalanced connections?

unbalanced is good for shorter runs, like up to 1m. but for signal wires into active speakers you'd normally need more than that. XLR cables have this great feat that they cancell noise picked up on the way.
 

Ajani

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shooter said:
Thanks all for the info on bypassing the DAC section of the 40's in the other thread, i was going to post this reply by it has been locked:

For me i still like boxes ultimately this means flexability and with the 40's having some great drivers in it would be a chance to hear them with my own gear. It may not apeal to some but a balance input straight into the amp section would be a plus.

Feel free to lock this one :)

I really love the box flexibility, so if only AVI would offer a version without the DAC, Pre or amp so I can use my own electronics

:rofl:

While I see the point about a balanced input being favoured by some persons, once you start requiring them to alter the product's design it gets more unlikely that they will comply.
 

shooter

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Ajani said:
shooter said:
Thanks all for the info on bypassing the DAC section of the 40's in the other thread, i was going to post this reply by it has been locked:

For me i still like boxes ultimately this means flexability and with the 40's having some great drivers in it would be a chance to hear them with my own gear. It may not apeal to some but a balance input straight into the amp section would be a plus.

Feel free to lock this one :)

I really love the box flexibility, so if only AVI would offer a version without the DAC, Pre or amp so I can use my own electronics

:rofl:

While I see the point about a balanced input being favoured by some persons, once you start requiring them to alter the product's design it gets more unlikely that they will comply.

I'm pretty sure AVI wont change any product design for me, the thought is nice though :p

Seariouly though what i meant was the option to have a balanced input along side what the 40's do already. DAC/Pre for steamers, balanced input for box swappers to enjoy them as the raw speaker/amp design. Implementing it maybe more hastle than its worth.
 

shooter

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Overdose said:
As a matter of interest, why would you be so interested in balance connections and why would you not consider just using unbalanced connections?

TBH single ended is good enough for home use. If you have RF issues in the home balanced will help with that as the cable grounds itself between two conductors unlike single ended which grounds on componants. Really issues only occur over long distances and this is why balanced is prefered.
 

philipjohnwright

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I beg to differ
grin.gif


I tried short balanced and unbalanced leads in my (mid fi - Ayre / Harbeth) system and the difference was clearly audible. Even with cheap balanced leads, thing improved a bit more with better balanced cables (the unbalanced ones were good quality)
 

Phileas

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philipjohnwright said:
I beg to differ
grin.gif


I tried short balanced and unbalanced leads in my (mid fi - Ayre / Harbeth) system and the difference was clearly audible. Even with cheap balanced leads, thing improved a bit more with better balanced cables (the unbalanced ones were good quality)

Please forgive my scepticism.
 
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Anonymous

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philipjohnwright said:
I beg to differ
grin.gif


I tried short balanced and unbalanced leads in my (mid fi - Ayre / Harbeth) system and the difference was clearly audible. Even with cheap balanced leads, thing improved a bit more with better balanced cables (the unbalanced ones were good quality)

+1 This is my experience too. Tried the same Transparent range of cables of XLR and Phono construction and the difference was clearly audible. Balanced gave an improvement the same as upgrading the CD player.
 

Electro

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philipjohnwright said:
I beg to differ
grin.gif


I tried short balanced and unbalanced leads in my (mid fi - Ayre / Harbeth) system and the difference was clearly audible. Even with cheap balanced leads, thing improved a bit more with better balanced cables (the unbalanced ones were good quality)

I agree with you there is a marked improvement in sound quality using balanced interconnects with my Electrocompaniet equipment but that is the way it was designed to be used as all the equipment is balanced from input to output .

One thing to watch out for when comparing balanced with unbalanced connections is the doubling of the voltage output when using balanced connections on fully balanced equipment like Electrocompaniet because it is considerably louder for the same volume setting using the balanced connections .
 

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Electro said:
I agree with you there is a marked improvement in sound quality using balanced interconnects with my Electrocompaniet equipment but that is the way it was designed to be used as all the equipment is balanced from input to output .

That raises an interesting question. I've seen it claimed by several manufacturers that balanced connections are only useful in a fully balanced system, So just slapping on a balance input on a component will give no improvement or even make performance slightly worse.

So since the ADM40 is clearly not a fully balanced system, would there be any benefit from just slapping on a balanced input?
 

Electro

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Ajani said:
Electro said:
I agree with you there is a marked improvement in sound quality using balanced interconnects with my Electrocompaniet equipment but that is the way it was designed to be used as all the equipment is balanced from input to output .

That raises an interesting question. I've seen it claimed by several manufacturers that balanced connections are only useful in a fully balanced system, So just slapping on a balance input on a component will give no improvement or even make performance slightly worse.

So since the ADM40 is clearly not a fully balanced system, would there be any benefit from just slapping on a balanced input?

Yes this is right , I doubt that the electronics inside the ADM40 are fully balanced so adding a balanced connection would be a waste of time because it would only be using one half of the balanced signal supplied to them anyway . :)
 

oldric_naubhoff

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Ajani said:
Electro said:
I agree with you there is a marked improvement in sound quality using balanced interconnects with my Electrocompaniet equipment but that is the way it was designed to be used as all the equipment is balanced from input to output .

That raises an interesting question. I've seen it claimed by several manufacturers that balanced connections are only useful in a fully balanced system, So just slapping on a balance input on a component will give no improvement or even make performance slightly worse.

So since the ADM40 is clearly not a fully balanced system, would there be any benefit from just slapping on a balanced input?

AFAIK there are two ways to reap benefits of balanced technology. first you run a pairs of amps (from source down to power amp) in opposite phase to each other and join signal on the speaker output. or you can use balancing/ unbalancing transformers on output - input, in which case your amplification will not be balanced but you still can benefit from balanced interconnection.

Ajani said:
... or even make performance slightly worse.

:rofl:

I think you're eating up AVI's propaganda a little bit too fast. do they say on the forum that there are no benefits of balanced technology over single ended?
 

Ajani

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oldric_naubhoff said:
Ajani said:
... or even make performance slightly worse.

:rofl:

I think you're eating up AVI's propaganda a little bit too fast. do they say on the forum that there are no benefits of balanced technology over single ended?

I don't listen to AVI's propaganda. Don't assume that anyone in an AVI thread who is not hating on AVI is either an HDD forum member or huge AVI fan. I just find their products interesting.

If I remember correctly, the question of whether balanced provides any benefit came from Monachy Audio's website. They have fully balanced amps and other single ended amps with balanced inputs. They claim that you might as well use the RCA input on the single ended amps as the balanced input will not aid the performance.
 

Ajani

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Phileas said:
oldric_naubhoff said:
you can use balancing/ unbalancing transformers on output - input

Doesn't this add distortion? I thought I read that somewhere.

That's what I thought as well. You are just adding extra complexity to the component - so yes chances are that it may add more negatives than the positives it provides.
 

oldric_naubhoff

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Ajani said:
:rofl:

I think you're eating up AVI's propaganda a little bit too fast. do they say on the forum that there are no benefits of balanced technology over single ended?

I don't listen to AVI's propaganda. Don't assume that anyone in an AVI thread who is not hating on AVI is either an HDD forum member or huge AVI fan. I just find their products interesting.

[/quote]

sorry. I shouldn't have written this remark. you're absolutely right.

Ajani said:
If I remember correctly, the question of whether balanced provides any benefit came from Monachy Audio's website. They have fully balanced amps and other single ended amps with balanced inputs. They claim that you might as well use the RCA input on the single ended amps as the balanced input will not aid the performance.

like I said a few post before; RCA is good for short run. if you dig into the history of the connection on wiki you'll see that RCA used it to make internal connections for their phonographs. RCA has never been meant to be a long run interconnect. AFAIK 1m is border length. take look at pro audio. there's miles of cabling lying around on each stage and yet you hear no hum, no hiss through the speakers. this is because balanced interconnects cancel common mode interference. OK you could have RCA with shielding, but it will never be as efficient as balanced interconnects.
 

oldric_naubhoff

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Ajani said:
Phileas said:
oldric_naubhoff said:
you can use balancing/ unbalancing transformers on output - input

Doesn't this add distortion? I thought I read that somewhere.

That's what I thought as well. You are just adding extra complexity to the component - so yes chances are that it may add more negatives than the positives it provides.

well, I think you have to answer yourself two questions in this case:

1. how good quality is the transformer in question?

2. how much noise is single ended interconnect picking up?
 

Ajani

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oldric_naubhoff said:
Ajani said:
If I remember correctly, the question of whether balanced provides any benefit came from Monachy Audio's website. They have fully balanced amps and other single ended amps with balanced inputs. They claim that you might as well use the RCA input on the single ended amps as the balanced input will not aid the performance.

like I said a few post before; RCA is good for short run. if you dig into the history of the connection on wiki you'll see that RCA used it to make internal connections for their phonographs. RCA has never been meant to be a long run interconnect. AFAIK 1m is border length. take look at pro audio. there's miles of cabling lying around on each stage and yet you hear no hum, no hiss through the speakers. this is because balanced interconnects cancel common mode interference. OK you could have RCA with shielding, but it will never be as efficient as balanced interconnects.

We don't disagree on XLR for long cable lengths. As you rightly say there is a reason XLR is used in the Pro industry (I use XLR whenever I connect my Bencmark DAC1 to my pro monitors). I would rather XLR than RCA if given a choice, but I'm not sure that you get the XLR benefit from just placing an XLR input on any amp. From what I've read (I won't pretend to understand the science behind it all), the entire circuit should be balanced to really get the benefit of XLR.
 

Overdose

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oldric_naubhoff said:
like I said a few post before; RCA is good for short run. if you dig into the history of the connection on wiki you'll see that RCA used it to make internal connections for their phonographs. RCA has never been meant to be a long run interconnect. AFAIK 1m is border length. take look at pro audio. there's miles of cabling lying around on each stage and yet you hear no hum, no hiss through the speakers. this is because balanced interconnects cancel common mode interference. OK you could have RCA with shielding, but it will never be as efficient as balanced interconnects.

I use studio monitors with studio XLR interconnects and an audio interface. My speakers hum and hiss.

The hum greatly diminishes when the preamp section is active and the hiss is induced by the preamp (I am almost certain).
 

oldric_naubhoff

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Ajani said:
oldric_naubhoff said:
Ajani said:
If I remember correctly, the question of whether balanced provides any benefit came from Monachy Audio's website. They have fully balanced amps and other single ended amps with balanced inputs. They claim that you might as well use the RCA input on the single ended amps as the balanced input will not aid the performance.

like I said a few post before; RCA is good for short run. if you dig into the history of the connection on wiki you'll see that RCA used it to make internal connections for their phonographs. RCA has never been meant to be a long run interconnect. AFAIK 1m is border length. take look at pro audio. there's miles of cabling lying around on each stage and yet you hear no hum, no hiss through the speakers. this is because balanced interconnects cancel common mode interference. OK you could have RCA with shielding, but it will never be as efficient as balanced interconnects.

We don't disagree on XLR for long cable lengths. As you rightly say there is a reason XLR is used in the Pro industry (I use XLR whenever I connect my Bencmark DAC1 to my pro monitors). I would rather XLR than RCA if given a choice, but I'm not sure that you get the XLR benefit from just placing an XLR input on any amp. From what I've read (I won't pretend to understand the science behind it all), the entire circuit should be balanced to really get the benefit of XLR.

speaking about pro monitors. I really don't think they are balanced but still use balanced inputs, always. I mean, if they were truly balanced they'd have a pair of xovers and 4 power amps inside each cabinet. this is not happening. obviously there has to be a good reason why balanced is still being used anyway. and I don't think it's about just fashion.
 

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