AV receiver + stereo amp = Peace?

[rendu]

Hello, I have been upgrading my system for the past 10 years and I still do not seem to find peace speacially with regards to music. I have tried several AV receiver brands with different speaker combinations but, the result with music is still far from satisfactory.

I am seriously considering the possibility to build a system with a set up of AV receiver + stereo amp (via pre-outs of the AV receiver). The objective is to use the same set of speakers by both amplifiers and be able to play the same sources.

Is this really the best solution to have a satisfactory performance both in movies and music? Any alternatives?

I would like to hear from anybody who is using this configuration specially regarding easy of use and user friendliness. I am concerned about having to play around with volumes, remote controls, equalizations in both amplifiers, balance and consistency of the system across all speakers, conection of sources to use both amps, etc.

Many thanks, Pablo.

 

[scene]

Hi Pablo,
I don't have this configuration, but am considering it. My next AV amp upgrade will be to one with pre-outs for the front pair, so I can route them through my A85. I notice you've got an AVR280, and I've got an AVR250 - and I must say that I have found Arcam to make some of the most musical AV amps.
If I had the money, I would look at an AVR500 / 600 with some appropriate speakers. I'm loathe to demo this right now, as I fear I would start looking around to see what furniture / valuables / family members I could sell to pay for it.
On the volume controls / remote thing. A number of stereo amps have a "processor mode" setting, which means that they become a fixed gain device, effectively meaning the volume can be controlled from the AV amp. Balance and consistency should be OK, assuming you have a good set of 5.1 / 7.1 speakers that are suited to music - for example a Monitor Audio RX AV6 setup - but I'm not sure you will be able to use Dynamic EQ on the AV amp.
As for connections - everything goes into the AV amp, and which would hopefully have a "Stereo direct" or equivalent mode, so that it can de-activate unnecessary circuitry when playing two-channel music.

I'm still mulling over this sort of set up with a Marantz/Denon/Onkyo as the AV amp (for cost reasons)...

 

[rendu]

Thanks Scene, I agree that Arcam is probably one of most musical brands for AV receivers but I still have the feeling that any stereo amp would provide more realistic music performance. If I finally decide to go this route I would use an old Onkyo 701E that still keep because the Arcam does not have pre-outs, in addition I used to enjoy the movies more with the Onkyo. My thought was to use the 701E with a mid range stereo amp such as Nait 5 or something similar with the hope that performace for music will improve.

Same as you, I would also wish I had the money for an AVR 500 but, it is no the case.

Thanks.

 

[chudleighpaul]

IMO connecteing a stereo amp to the pre amp out from an AV amp is over complicating matters.

Why not use a pair of speaker switches so you alternate between the AV amp and your Stereo? That way it is impossible to overload anything.

 

[rendu]

Well, I understand that thought although I have never seen speaker switches and I do not know how they work. However, this would mean to connect the blue-ray to both amps in order to get all channels working for the movies and I believe that would be even more complicated, how would you set up the switch for that? In addition I want to use the FM of the receiver but amplified with the stereo amp instead to get better music performance.

 

[chudleighpaul]

You connect all your AV sources, Bluray DVD Sky etc to your av amp, and then your strictly audio sources, CD Vinyl etc to the stereo amp. When you want av you swich the speakers to the AV amp and when you want audio only you switch to the stereo amp.

 

[daveh75]

scene:
As for connections - everything goes into the AV amp, and which would hopefully have a "Stereo direct" or equivalent mode, so that it can de-activate unnecessary circuitry when playing two-channel music..They don't!

A/V sources connect to the A/V amp and stereo sources to the stereo amp. The whole point of this type of configuration is that the A/V is completely out the equation when listening to stereo sources.

 

[rendu]

Thanks, I believe that I understand what you mean, so you would connect the front speakers to both amps. You would still need to use the pre-outs from the AV in order to use the radio with the stereo amp. I suppose it is a possibility but I believe that I still prefer the option AV + stereo.

 

[Gerrardasnails]

rendu:
Hello, I have been upgrading my system for the past 10 years and I still do not seem to find peace speacially with regards to music. I have tried several AV receiver brands with different speaker combinations but, the result with music is still far from satisfactory.

I am seriously considering the possibility to build a system with a set up of AV receiver + stereo amp (via pre-outs of the AV receiver). The objective is to use the same set of speakers by both amplifiers and be able to play the same sources.

Is this really the best solution to have a satisfactory performance both in movies and music? Any alternatives?

I would like to hear from anybody who is using this configuration specially regarding easy of use and user friendliness. I am concerned about having to play around with volumes, remote controls, equalizations in both amplifiers, balance and consistency of the system across all speakers, conection of sources to use both amps, etc.

Many thanks, Pablo.

I've had this configuration for three years now. It is definitely the best of both worlds. My first amp I used for this purpose (CA 840A) enables you to fix the volume on an input. It works great, you calibrate your system, fix the volume level for that input and name it and whenever you watch a film or tv, you cannot alter the front two volume with the stereo amp, only with your AV receiver. I recently upgraded and my Moon amp has a similar function. One one input, you can fix the volume again so it's easy as pie. I think that a lot of amps offer this now, look for AV input and/or read the manual before buying your stereo amp.

 

[AlmaataKZ]

I use such a configuration - check my system thread linked in the signature.

you are right in thinking that it may be inconvenient in term sof control/integration. Basically, there are several approaches:

- integrated stereo amp needs to have HT bypass (home theater bypass). this means the stereo amp has one input with fixed level (i.e. the volume control on stereo amp does not affect the signal from this input). you take a pre-out from your AV and connect it to HT bypass input and use the stereo amp as power amp. this is as neat as it can get and there are plenty of amps with HT bypass.

- as above but there is no bypass on the stereo amp, i.e. the input is affected by voluem control. This is where incovenience kicks in - you need to pre-set the volume on the stereo amp to a certain position (usually 12 o'clock) every time you use the AV kit (and calibrate the multichannel levels of the AV kit for this setting beforehand).

- use an amp switch, i.e. two (stereo) amp inputs into one (stereo) speaker output. Problem here is there are not many options around and hardly any remote controlled ones. there may be some products in the home installation market.

these days, there are even DACs with pre-amps and HT bypass - e.g. Wyred4Sound - this is really interesting if you are also considering computer based playback or streaming for the stereo part.

http://www.wyred4sound.com/webapps/site/74030/117839/shopping/shopping-view.html?pid=457975&b_id=&find_groupid=18157

also, some power amps have dual source input (e.g. some of Musical Fidelity) so also serve as source selectro but in slightly different configurations.

 

[scene]

daveh75:
scene:
As for connections - everything goes into the AV amp, and which would hopefully have a "Stereo direct" or equivalent mode, so that it can de-activate unnecessary circuitry when playing two-channel music..They don't!

A/V sources connect to the A/V amp and stereo sources to the stereo amp. The whole point of this type of configuration is that the A/V is completely out the equation when listening to stereo sources.

Oops - yes of course they do! Rush of blood to the typing fingers there.

 

[Andrew17321]

rendu,

Are you sure your Arcam does not have pre-outs? I have an Arcam AVR300, which I thought was similar except a bit more powerful, has pre-outs for all the analogue channels.

For the same reasons as you I am considering adding a quality stereo amplifier attached through the pre-outs of the Arcam when using surround sound, but fed directly from a turntable and from a Sonos system, possibly via a DAC.

I would be interested to hear how you get on.

Regards

Andrew

 

[Gerrardasnails]

Andrew17321:
rendu,

Are you sure your Arcam does not have pre-outs? I have an Arcam AVR300, which I thought was similar except a bit more powerful, has pre-outs for all the analogue channels.

For the same reasons as you I am considering adding a quality stereo amplifier attached through the pre-outs of the Arcam when using surround sound, but fed directly from a turntable and from a Sonos system, possibly via a DAC.

I would be interested to hear how you get on.

Regards

Andrew

He didn't mention anything about his Arcam having or not having pre outs.

 

[rendu]

Andrew17321:

rendu,

Are you sure your Arcam does not have pre-outs? I have an Arcam AVR300, which I thought was similar except a bit more powerful, has pre-outs for all the analogue channels.

For the same reasons as you I am considering adding a quality stereo amplifier attached through the pre-outs of the Arcam when using surround sound, but fed directly from a turntable and from a Sonos system, possibly via a DAC.

I would be interested to hear how you get on.

Regards

Andrew

Hello Andrew, yes confirmed it has no pre-outs. I believe that as you well mentioned the 300 series do have pre-outs.

 

[rendu]

Thanks very much Gerrardasnails and AlmaataKZ for sharing your experiences. I will certainly take your comments into account when I start the process. So far it seems that my main question has been answered and can conclude that this is the only real possibility to have a system that will perform well both for music and movies.

Now the road is long and it will depend on the market. With the current crises in Spain it is very difficult to put things on the market so, I will have to take it with lots of patience.

 

[Anonymous]

Hi there I had the same problem for years. The solution I came up with was to share my front speakers with both systems. I have my av gear connected to my yamaha amp and into my five speakers. My arcam based hi fi is at the opposite end of the room and I run a set of seperate speaker cables in behind my av rack. The av is always connected so when I want to listen to cds I just pop the leads out and slot in the stereo leads. So far it works really well it may not be to eveyones taste maybe not technical enough with no pre outs and switching going on but I have found it works for me, everythings neat and both systems work when needed and run off different outlets so everythings seperate.

Ps not sure how to address your tuner needs unless you buy a seperate tuner and add it to the hi fi section of your system

Cheers

Ronnie

 

[Anonymous]

I was in this situation last year. I have a modest hi-fi, and I enjoy listening to music. Then got a blu ray player, and got thinkng about 5.1.

I couldn't afford the Audiolab 5.1 option, but didn't want to lose out on my music. I opted for my Yamaha 763 with pre outs, this connects to my 8000S which can be run in power amp mode (saves any messing around with volume controls).

When it comes to a serious music session, I simply switch it back to integrated mode.

I had considered speaker switches, but after buying some nice cables, seemed like all the good would be undone.

Hope this helps.

 

[WishTree]

Hi Pablo,

It is very obvious on paper and with some lucky ones, this AVR + Stereo Amp is an awesome match. However we hear mostly success stories as people talk about success but I am one of the unlucky ones in this department. However, I thought you would be still interested to know the flip side.

I am sure as all of us know that there is great deal of discussion on which speakers to match with which AVR as well as which speakers to match with which Stereo Amp. So when you have three components in place the complexity of matching will also go up exponentially.

I tried Denon AVR 1910, 2310, 3310 with Marantz PM 6003 & 7003 as well as a Rotel Stereo Power amp (The new 15** series Class D - forgot the model number 1572?). Unfortunately in all the possible permutations and combinations - the AVR alone really shined in the Music area too. The best set up that I have experienced was 3310 alone and the worst was 3310 with Rotel. The rest of them were in between with too much brightness all the time. With Marantz 7003 in picture with pure Integrated Amp (AVR completely off) there was some increase in instrument seperation but Marantz 6003 / 7003 does not make my B&W CM7s sing but only make them shrilling shreak. I believe upwards 1000 Pounds AVR will beat a below 400-500 pounds Integrated Stereo Amp.

I have burnt enough time & money in changing things but now I am content with 2310 and PV1 adding a little magic on bass side is sufficing time being. The next thing for me would be to try Arcam 500 / 600 as I do not have too much confidence any more in more number of separates as matching the complete system is completely art! (every one goes on and on about the performance of these receivers - I hope it is not another myth) I just want to sit and enjoy the music at the end of the day! (And I am not giving up on CM7 - they are really wonderful in mids and highs which in my opinion is tough to achieve at CM7 price range)

Ease of use - It would not be a problem at all with multiple components with HT Bypass mode on the Amp and a well configured Harmony Remote.

 

[rendu]

Very interesting replies indeed.

I can see that not all have been success stories and that it clearly adds an additional complexity and a level of user unfriendliness into the equation. Regarding the sentence "I believe upwards 1000 Pounds AVR will beat a below 400-500 pounds Integrated Stereo Amp", there was an interesting blind test in the last WHF magazine where all users prefered a Rotel 04 (300 pounds) than, a 2.000 pound receiver in terms of music performance. If I finally decide to go this route I will clearly have to make sure that the stereo amp will match well with the B&W and give better music performance than what I have now.

One other conclusion that I am extracting out of this is that the performance with music of the AV receivers is generally speaking UNNACEPTABLE. We as customers should claim harder that the companies really meet their promises and if not, return the products. All the AV receivers that I had, Denon 1602, Onkyo 701E and Arcam AVR280 claimed in their brochers that they were "excellent" for movies as well as for music reproduction. It is not normal that so many AV receiver owners have to find creative solutions and cumberson set ups to continue enjoying music. Letïs go on AV purchasing strike... (just joking of course)

 

[Gerrardasnails]

rendu:
Very interesting replies indeed.

I can see that not all have been success stories and that it clearly adds an additional complexity and a level of user unfriendliness into the equation. Regarding the sentence "I believe upwards 1000 Pounds AVR will beat a below 400-500 pounds Integrated Stereo Amp", there was an interesting blind test in the last WHF magazine where all users prefered a Rotel 04 (300 pounds) than, a 2.000 pound receiver in terms of music performance. If I finally decide to go this route I will clearly have to make sure that the stereo amp will match well with the B&W and give better music performance than what I have now.

One other conclusion that I am extracting out of this is that the performance with music of the AV receivers is generally speaking UNNACEPTABLE. We as customers should claim harder that the companies really meet their promises and if not, return the products. All the AV receivers that I had, Denon 1602, Onkyo 701E and Arcam AVR280 claimed in their brochers that they were "excellent" for movies as well as for music reproduction. It is not normal that so many AV receiver owners have to find creative solutions and cumberson set ups to continue enjoying music. Letïs go on AV purchasing strike... (just joking of course)

I think people are making more of this than it is. Yes, it's a pain that your receiver is one without pre outs. However, most new receivers above £500 do have and a lot of second hand ones at the £200 plus mark will too. I used to have a Sony STRDA1200ES which has and you can pick them up for around £170-200 on ebay. Trying to sell your Arcam in Spain could be a problem but you could market it to the UK and courier costs aren't that expensive.

Anyway, back to the job in hand. The guy that says that a £1k receiver will beat a £400 stereo amp has either not heard any good £400 stereo amps, has heard some receivers that no one else has, or just has strange hearing.

All you need to do is make sure that the AV receiver you buy has a good balance with your speaker package and it has pre outs for front and right speakers. And then, with your stereo amp, more importantly (imo) that it gels with your speakers, ideally has a home theatre bypass/AV input or at least that it's able to separate pre and power so that it will work with your AV receiver.

The rest is the really easy part.

 

[AlmaataKZ]

Teh way I adressed the need to per-set the volume on the stereo pre amp for AV (without HT bypass) is by using a 'macro' on a universla remote to automatically preset the vol on stereo pre tot he requried position when I chose any movie activity.

re pre outs on AV receivers - most mid range units and above have them, new or old, from any maker.

 

[Anonymous]

I think my set up is similar to what you are after?,I mean the way it is set up, onkyo htx22hd av system,rotel ra4 audio amp,marantz cd6002 player, bw731 front speakers,speakers are attached to both the onkyo and rotel, marantz to rotel, all other equipment to onkyo, I only have one of the amps on at a time.

 

[WishTree]

rendu:
Regarding the sentence "I believe upwards 1000 Pounds AVR will beat a below 400-500 pounds Integrated Stereo Amp", there was an interesting blind test in the last WHF magazine where all users prefered a Rotel 04 (300 pounds) than, a 2.000 pound receiver in terms of music performance.

I am the guy who made the statement.. Well it is not so much of a statement but an observation.. After reading so much about what a paltry 300 pound Stereo Amp would do to sound when compared to a 1000 Pound amp, it is no brainer that 300 Pound is almost the wisest possible investment ever made for such a huge up in SQ. But in reality it is not the case for me. I have done this test with the setup that I have mentioned with three other friends and who have very sensitive ears than me and we all agreed unanimously on the set ups that we tested. My gut feeling is that, people must have demoed a 300 Pound in a demo set up in more or less ideal conditions, and assume that they will get the same performance everywhere..

I am very keen to listen to people who have actually done the set ups experiment at home with the same set of speakers and source. It is very obvious that room acoustics, positioning etc are the major influencer and after a critical threshold of System Quality when it comes to SQ. I am very apprehensive whether people really did some exhaustive check in the same environment or just repeating what they read else where and thought logically that was the best logic!

Some random Blind Tests somewhere versus your own experience - I am sure what you would like to give preference.

Also, WhatHiFi is just one of the many sources to help you make the right informed decision but of late seeing all Sony products topping in TV / Bluray Player / even some AVRs I am certainly taking it with a pinch of salt (especially with my experience with Sony BDP s370 vs PS3 Slim). We should always treat them as a broad pointers but not believe entirely.

Also, I am requesting people not to take this personally. All I am asking is to have the right amount of questioning and experiencing before believing it. I am glad if some one has a tried and tested suggestion for my current set up (Denon AVR 2310 and B& W speakers as in my signature), the best suitable Integrated Amp under 400 Pounds and I would be more than happy to buy it and try it as I am also looking to achieving the best SQ.

Cheers!

 

[Gerrardasnails]

WishTree:rendu:
Regarding the sentence "I believe upwards 1000 Pounds AVR will beat a below 400-500 pounds Integrated Stereo Amp", there was an interesting blind test in the last WHF magazine where all users prefered a Rotel 04 (300 pounds) than, a 2.000 pound receiver in terms of music performance.

I am the guy who made the statement.. Well it is not so much of a statement but an observation.. After reading so much about what a paltry 300 pound Stereo Amp would do to sound when compared to a 1000 Pound amp, it is no brainer that 300 Pound is almost the wisest possible investment ever made for such a huge up in SQ. But in reality it is not the case for me. I have done this test with the setup that I have mentioned with three other friends and who have very sensitive ears than me and we all agreed unanimously on the set ups that we tested. My gut feeling is that, people must have demoed a 300 Pound in a demo set up in more or less ideal conditions, and assume that they will get the same performance everywhere..

I am very keen to listen to people who have actually done the set ups experiment at home with the same set of speakers and source. It is very obvious that room acoustics, positioning etc are the major influencer and after a critical threshold of System Quality when it comes to SQ. I am very apprehensive whether people really did some exhaustive check in the same environment or just repeating what they read else where and thought logically that was the best logic!

Some random Blind Tests somewhere versus your own experience - I am sure what you would like to give preference.

Also, WhatHiFi is just one of the many sources to help you make the right informed decision but of late seeing all Sony products topping in TV / Bluray Player / even some AVRs I am certainly taking it with a pinch of salt (especially with my experience with Sony BDP s370 vs PS3 Slim). We should always treat them as a broad pointers but not believe entirely.

Also, I am requesting people not to take this personally. All I am asking is to have the right amount of questioning and experiencing before believing it. I am glad if some one has a tried and tested suggestion for my current set up (Denon AVR 2310 and B& W speakers as in my signature), the best suitable Integrated Amp under 400 Pounds and I would be more than happy to buy it and try it as I am also looking to achieving the best SQ.

Cheers!

The 'problem' you have is your very good speakers deserve better than a £300 stereo amp let alone a £700 AV receiver. I would look at the newish £700 Rotel stereo amp (I can't remember the model number). Rotel and B&W match well.

 

[Gerrardasnails]

WishTree:rendu:
Regarding the sentence "I believe upwards 1000 Pounds AVR will beat a below 400-500 pounds Integrated Stereo Amp", there was an interesting blind test in the last WHF magazine where all users prefered a Rotel 04 (300 pounds) than, a 2.000 pound receiver in terms of music performance.

I am the guy who made the statement.. Well it is not so much of a statement but an observation.. After reading so much about what a paltry 300 pound Stereo Amp would do to sound when compared to a 1000 Pound amp, it is no brainer that 300 Pound is almost the wisest possible investment ever made for such a huge up in SQ. But in reality it is not the case for me. I have done this test with the setup that I have mentioned with three other friends and who have very sensitive ears than me and we all agreed unanimously on the set ups that we tested. My gut feeling is that, people must have demoed a 300 Pound in a demo set up in more or less ideal conditions, and assume that they will get the same performance everywhere..

I am very keen to listen to people who have actually done the set ups experiment at home with the same set of speakers and source. It is very obvious that room acoustics, positioning etc are the major influencer and after a critical threshold of System Quality when it comes to SQ. I am very apprehensive whether people really did some exhaustive check in the same environment or just repeating what they read else where and thought logically that was the best logic!

Some random Blind Tests somewhere versus your own experience - I am sure what you would like to give preference.

Also, WhatHiFi is just one of the many sources to help you make the right informed decision but of late seeing all Sony products topping in TV / Bluray Player / even some AVRs I am certainly taking it with a pinch of salt (especially with my experience with Sony BDP s370 vs PS3 Slim). We should always treat them as a broad pointers but not believe entirely.

Also, I am requesting people not to take this personally. All I am asking is to have the right amount of questioning and experiencing before believing it. I am glad if some one has a tried and tested suggestion for my current set up (Denon AVR 2310 and B& W speakers as in my signature), the best suitable Integrated Amp under 400 Pounds and I would be more than happy to buy it and try it as I am also looking to achieving the best SQ.

Cheers!

The 'problem' you have is your very good speakers deserve better than a £300 stereo amp let alone a £700 AV receiver. I would look at the newish £700 Rotel stereo amp (I can't remember the model number). Rotel and B&W match well.